The phony STEM shortage and the scandal of engineering visas (H1-B)

[TSwizzle]

On the other hand, why should programmers be paid $300k?

I doubt there are many, if any, programmers earning $300k per annum. The upper rate for a programmer/developer is roughly $85K to $105k. But it's not just about programmers, it affects a broad range of IT functions. It's poor form that these big companies use H-1B as a cost cutting tool, that's not the purpose of H-1B.

 

[atrib]

No, immigrants are not inherently good, but actual immigrants seeking be a permanent part of the US are far better than temporary workers without citizenship, which is what all the people H-1B Visas are.

Emphasis mine.

Immigration to the US is not easy unless you are a minor child or a spouse of a US national. Even then, the paperwork and waiting times can be significant, stretching into years. Second, not all H-1B workers are imported en-mass from other countries for 3 or 6 year periods. Some, or many, are foreign nationals who have been educated in the US, and are using the H-1B visa as a stepping stone to permanent residence and naturalization. Without the H-1B temporary worker visa program, there is currently no avenue for a US company to employ talented foreign nationals and sponsor them their green card petitions (the latter is theoretically possible, but pretty much impossible to implement in practice unless you are hiring at the CEO/COO level).

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, immigrants are not inherently good, but actual immigrants seeking be a permanent part of the US are far better than temporary workers without citizenship, which is what all the people H-1B Visas are.

Emphasis mine.

Immigration to the US is not easy unless you are a minor child or a spouse of a US national. Even then, the paperwork and waiting times can be significant, stretching into years. Second, not all H-1B workers are imported en-mass from other countries for 3 or 6 year periods. Some, or many, are foreign nationals who have been educated in the US, and are using the H-1B visa as a stepping stone to permanent residence and naturalization. Without the H-1B temporary worker visa program, there is currently no avenue for a US company to employ talented foreign nationals and sponsor them their green card petitions (the latter is theoretically possible, but pretty much impossible to implement in practice unless you are hiring at the CEO/COO level).

Why does there need to be a route for them to bring in foreign nationals?

 

[coloradoatheist]

Emphasis mine.

Immigration to the US is not easy unless you are a minor child or a spouse of a US national. Even then, the paperwork and waiting times can be significant, stretching into years. Second, not all H-1B workers are imported en-mass from other countries for 3 or 6 year periods. Some, or many, are foreign nationals who have been educated in the US, and are using the H-1B visa as a stepping stone to permanent residence and naturalization. Without the H-1B temporary worker visa program, there is currently no avenue for a US company to employ talented foreign nationals and sponsor them their green card petitions (the latter is theoretically possible, but pretty much impossible to implement in practice unless you are hiring at the CEO/COO level).

Why does there need to be a route for them to bring in foreign nationals?

Why are you guaranteed a job because of which part of the globe you are born at?

 

[Playball40]

Why does there need to be a route for them to bring in foreign nationals?

Why are you guaranteed a job because of which part of the globe you are born at?

So you are for removing all borders in the world, right?

 

[coloradoatheist]

Why are you guaranteed a job because of which part of the globe you are born at?

So you are for removing all borders in the world, right?

That would be the ideal end goal.

 

[bilby]

Borders as barriers to the free movement of people are a new phenomenon; they really didn't exist until the First World War, and were introduced then to stop saboteurs and spies from infiltrating from enemy states.

Prior to that time, passports were limited to diplomats, and were intended to make it easy for them to demand assistance from foreign governments - you didn't need a passport in order to travel abroad.

Of course, once people needed papers to get into other countries, the idea of preventing or limiting immigration became practical; and people being the xenophobic fuckwits that many are, demanded that 'they' be kept out, and prevented from stealing our jobs and our women.

Dam a trickle for a century, and all of a sudden, there is the risk of a flood. The solution is to release the pressure; building the dam higher and less permeable is just asking for the eventual flood to be even worse.

Preventing people from moving freely is stupid, cruel, dangerous and ultimately will be ineffective. The only way to stop people from moving is to make the whole world (close to) equal. Which is unlikely ever to be possible. Where there's a will, there's a way, and people will come whether or not you build a wall.

 

[dismal]

Wait, then how did nations protect themselves from influxes of cheap highly skilled labor?

 

[coloradoatheist]

Wait, then how did nations protect themselves from influxes of cheap highly skilled labor?

I thought they had to do the opposite, and went and conquered another country to get slaves.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why does there need to be a route for them to bring in foreign nationals?

Why are you guaranteed a job because of which part of the globe you are born at?

One of the main jobs of a country is to look out for the welfare of it's citizens.

- - - Updated - - -

So you are for removing all borders in the world, right?

That would be the ideal end goal.

In other words, make the whole world into a third world nation.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait, then how did nations protect themselves from influxes of cheap highly skilled labor?

In the old days relocation was harder and the capital companies needed per worker was much lower. An influx of skilled workers in a field with demand wasn't a problem. Now it's easy to get too many for the system to cope with.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Why are you guaranteed a job because of which part of the globe you are born at?

One of the main jobs of a country is to look out for the welfare of it's citizens.

- - - Updated - - -

So you are for removing all borders in the world, right?

That would be the ideal end goal.

In other words, make the whole world into a third world nation.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait, then how did nations protect themselves from influxes of cheap highly skilled labor?

In the old days relocation was harder and the capital companies needed per worker was much lower. An influx of skilled workers in a field with demand wasn't a problem. Now it's easy to get too many for the system to cope with.

Most of us can say that when the KKK formed to protect the jobs of whites it was wrong for them. The color of skin is artificial too or which side of a river you are born on.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

One of the main jobs of a country is to look out for the welfare of it's citizens.

- - - Updated - - -

So you are for removing all borders in the world, right?

That would be the ideal end goal.

In other words, make the whole world into a third world nation.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait, then how did nations protect themselves from influxes of cheap highly skilled labor?

In the old days relocation was harder and the capital companies needed per worker was much lower. An influx of skilled workers in a field with demand wasn't a problem. Now it's easy to get too many for the system to cope with.

Most of us can say that when the KKK formed to protect the jobs of whites it was wrong for them. The color of skin is artificial too or which side of a river you are born on.

Let them all in and we fall to third world levels. Is that what you want?

 

[coloradoatheist]

One of the main jobs of a country is to look out for the welfare of it's citizens.

- - - Updated - - -

So you are for removing all borders in the world, right?

That would be the ideal end goal.

In other words, make the whole world into a third world nation.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait, then how did nations protect themselves from influxes of cheap highly skilled labor?

In the old days relocation was harder and the capital companies needed per worker was much lower. An influx of skilled workers in a field with demand wasn't a problem. Now it's easy to get too many for the system to cope with.

Most of us can say that when the KKK formed to protect the jobs of whites it was wrong for them. The color of skin is artificial too or which side of a river you are born on.

Let them all in and we fall to third world levels. Is that what you want?

They will come in at rates dictated by jobs they can get. We have open borders with all the states currently and it isn't a major issue. Even now the flow of of immigrants illegally coming in has slowed down with the economic down turn. And last, it would mean people would move elsewhere. I heard moving to Canada might be a big thing if Trump wins

 

[barbos]

One of the main jobs of a country is to look out for the welfare of it's citizens.

- - - Updated - - -

So you are for removing all borders in the world, right?

That would be the ideal end goal.

In other words, make the whole world into a third world nation.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait, then how did nations protect themselves from influxes of cheap highly skilled labor?

In the old days relocation was harder and the capital companies needed per worker was much lower. An influx of skilled workers in a field with demand wasn't a problem. Now it's easy to get too many for the system to cope with.

Most of us can say that when the KKK formed to protect the jobs of whites it was wrong for them. The color of skin is artificial too or which side of a river you are born on.

Let them all in and we fall to third world levels. Is that what you want?

They will come in at rates dictated by jobs they can get. We have open borders with all the states currently and it isn't a major issue. Even now the flow of of immigrants illegally coming in has slowed down with the economic down turn. And last, it would mean people would move elsewhere. I heard moving to Canada might be a big thing if Trump wins

In theory this is how it should work. In practice half of the world will be able to formally "get" jobs (out of the US workers) in US.
I am all for free movement (especially for myself) but better (for US) solution would be getting the rest of the world better economically.

 

[dismal]

One of the main jobs of a country is to look out for the welfare of it's citizens.

- - - Updated - - -

So you are for removing all borders in the world, right?

That would be the ideal end goal.

In other words, make the whole world into a third world nation.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait, then how did nations protect themselves from influxes of cheap highly skilled labor?

In the old days relocation was harder and the capital companies needed per worker was much lower. An influx of skilled workers in a field with demand wasn't a problem. Now it's easy to get too many for the system to cope with.

Most of us can say that when the KKK formed to protect the jobs of whites it was wrong for them. The color of skin is artificial too or which side of a river you are born on.

Let them all in and we fall to third world levels. Is that what you want?

Would you make similar arguments against importing cheap fruit or televisions?

And what's so magical about the national border? Do you think state economies would improve if they built walls to keep cheap imports out?

Do you think city economies would improve if they kept cheap imports out?

Do you think your household economy would improve if you kept cheap imports out? Think of all the engineering and manufacturing labor hours you are missing out on personally by not building your own car...

 

[Bomb#20]

So you are for removing all borders in the world, right?

That would be the ideal end goal.

In other words, make the whole world into a third world nation.

Most of us can say that when the KKK formed to protect the jobs of whites it was wrong for them. The color of skin is artificial too or which side of a river you are born on.

Let them all in and we fall to third world levels. Is that what you want?

A legitimate argument; but pretty far removed from the topic at hand. The whole point of the H1-B program is to NOT let them all in. It lets in the smart skillful ones. Filling one's country up with smart skillful people seems like a pretty good idea to me, well-calculated to make one's country less likely to fall to third world levels.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

One of the main jobs of a country is to look out for the welfare of it's citizens.

- - - Updated - - -

So you are for removing all borders in the world, right?

That would be the ideal end goal.

In other words, make the whole world into a third world nation.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait, then how did nations protect themselves from influxes of cheap highly skilled labor?

In the old days relocation was harder and the capital companies needed per worker was much lower. An influx of skilled workers in a field with demand wasn't a problem. Now it's easy to get too many for the system to cope with.

Most of us can say that when the KKK formed to protect the jobs of whites it was wrong for them. The color of skin is artificial too or which side of a river you are born on.

Let them all in and we fall to third world levels. Is that what you want?

They will come in at rates dictated by jobs they can get. We have open borders with all the states currently and it isn't a major issue. Even now the flow of of immigrants illegally coming in has slowed down with the economic down turn. And last, it would mean people would move elsewhere. I heard moving to Canada might be a big thing if Trump wins

Open borders between areas of roughly the same level work. Open borders between areas of greatly different levels do not work.

The thing is they'll come here if here is better than where they came from--this will only stop when we are dragged down close enough to the level of the places they come from.

- - - Updated - - -

Would you make similar arguments against importing cheap fruit or televisions?

And what's so magical about the national border? Do you think state economies would improve if they built walls to keep cheap imports out?

Do you think city economies would improve if they kept cheap imports out?

Do you think your household economy would improve if you kept cheap imports out? Think of all the engineering and manufacturing labor hours you are missing out on personally by not building your own car...

Importing should not be a problem because of exchange rates. Import too much, export too little and the value of the currencies will shift to correct the problem.

- - - Updated - - -

So you are for removing all borders in the world, right?

That would be the ideal end goal.

In other words, make the whole world into a third world nation.

Most of us can say that when the KKK formed to protect the jobs of whites it was wrong for them. The color of skin is artificial too or which side of a river you are born on.

Let them all in and we fall to third world levels. Is that what you want?

A legitimate argument; but pretty far removed from the topic at hand. The whole point of the H1-B program is to NOT let them all in. It lets in the smart skillful ones. Filling one's country up with smart skillful people seems like a pretty good idea to me, well-calculated to make one's country less likely to fall to third world levels.

H1-Bs aren't about filling up the country with smart ones. They're about importing quasi-slave labor.

 

[atrib]

Emphasis mine.

Immigration to the US is not easy unless you are a minor child or a spouse of a US national. Even then, the paperwork and waiting times can be significant, stretching into years. Second, not all H-1B workers are imported en-mass from other countries for 3 or 6 year periods. Some, or many, are foreign nationals who have been educated in the US, and are using the H-1B visa as a stepping stone to permanent residence and naturalization. Without the H-1B temporary worker visa program, there is currently no avenue for a US company to employ talented foreign nationals and sponsor them their green card petitions (the latter is theoretically possible, but pretty much impossible to implement in practice unless you are hiring at the CEO/COO level).

Why does there need to be a route for them to bring in foreign nationals?

Because in certain areas like engineering, science and medicine, there are often shortages of qualified applicants in the pool comprised of citizens and permanent residents. It took me about 7 months to fill an entry level civil engineer position (with an MS), and about 13 months to fill a mid-level civil engineer position (MS and 10-12 years of experience in the transportation design business) in Columbia, SC, despite offering very competitive wages for these positions. We are still looking for a senior project manager in Columbia or Charleston (20 to 25 years and strong relationships with the clients we work for), and it has been over a year. For every mediocre or unqualified US national who did apply for these positions, I typically had 2 to 3 better qualified foreign applicants who had an advanced degree from a highly ranked US university. Unfortunately, my firm no longer hires junior staff who need visa sponsorship because the process is tedious and expensive. The transportation design business has been booming in the southeast for the last 2+ years, and we are literally turning down work because we do not have the resources to deliver all the work we could book.

Anecdotally, my second in command was born and raised in India; I hired him about 14 years ago when he graduated from UC Berkeley with a PhD in structural design, and in this relatively short period he has become one of the most prolific Senior PMs in the company. In 2 to 3 years he will be taking over my group of about 440 people, and will become the youngest Service Line Leader and Senior VP in the company. A prime example of why US companies need to have the ability to hire the best and brightest people in the world, even if they were not born in the US.

 

[atrib]

Wait, aren't immigrants good.

If so, I would think immigrants with STEM degrees and job prospects would be better.

1) H1-Bs in practice get paid a lot less than Americans. It's not a level playing field.

As part of the application process, the employer has to demonstrate that the beneficiary of an H-1B petition will be compensated in accordance with prevailing local wages which are sourced from USDOL statistics. Do you have a source for your claim that companies are rampantly committing fraud by not compensating H-1B workers at the rates they cited in their applications?

2) The real problem with H1-Bs is the quantity. That many total immigrants, not a problem. That many concentrated in one profession, a big problem for that profession.

The US approves about 300,000 H-1B visas every year, more than half of which are related to continuing employment of a beneficiary who is already living in the US. In other words, the US brings in somewhere in the neighborhood of 100,000 to 130,000 new workers each year under the H-1B visa program. About 60 to 65% of these petitions are related to employment in the field of computer sciences, and the rest are spread out over engineering, science, medicine and other categories. You can find detailed H-1B statistics in this report:

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/H-1B/h-1B-characteristics-report-14.pdf

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why does there need to be a route for them to bring in foreign nationals?

Because in certain areas like engineering, science and medicine, there are often shortages of qualified applicants in the pool comprised of citizens and permanent residents. It took me about 7 months to fill an entry level civil engineer position (with an MS), and about 13 months to fill a mid-level civil engineer position (MS and 10-12 years of experience in the transportation design business) in Columbia, SC, despite offering very competitive wages for these positions. We are still looking for a senior project manager in Columbia or Charleston (20 to 25 years and strong relationships with the clients we work for), and it has been over a year. For every mediocre or unqualified US national who did apply for these positions, I typically had 2 to 3 better qualified foreign applicants who had an advanced degree from a highly ranked US university. Unfortunately, my firm no longer hires junior staff who need visa sponsorship because the process is tedious and expensive. The transportation design business has been booming in the southeast for the last 2+ years, and we are literally turning down work because we do not have the resources to deliver all the work we could book.

Anecdotally, my second in command was born and raised in India; I hired him about 14 years ago when he graduated from UC Berkeley with a PhD in structural design, and in this relatively short period he has become one of the most prolific Senior PMs in the company. In 2 to 3 years he will be taking over my group of about 440 people, and will become the youngest Service Line Leader and Senior VP in the company. A prime example of why US companies need to have the ability to hire the best and brightest people in the world, even if they were not born in the US.

When a field has a chronic shortage of employees it's because the wages paid don't reflect what it takes to do it.