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The phony STEM shortage and the scandal of engineering visas (H1-B)

I've read that a big source of opposition to slavery was free workers not wanting to compete with enslaved ones, because slave labor can easily undersell free labor, though I haven't found good sources on that.
There probably are no good sources for that.
Why don't you tell us why you are so sure of that? Who do you think was in the abolitionist movements of the early to mid 19th cy.?
In ancient times, the "free" workers were too intimidated to oppose anything. There were no protests or strikes etc. They were afraid of becoming enslaved themselves. Sometimes the slaves rioted and rampaged and usually got massacred. The "free" workers behaved and accepted the system.
Evidence?
In modern times, it was only the farmworkers who were slaves, and the "free" workers did not want to compete for those jobs. So they were not part of the opposition to slavery.
Evidence?

if you had been living before the Civil War and if you found some opponents of slavery using that argument, would you have become a supporter of slavery with all the fervor and belligerence that you have displayed here?
No, they and the slavery supporters both would have been refuted by the philosophy of free choice of everyone to work or hire or to buy or sell according to their own terms, based on their individual preference, i.e., the philosophy of free trade and free market economics based on competition and suppy & demand. In contrast to slavery which is based on denying to individuals their free choice, and also left-wing economics which denies free choice to individuals to buy and sell on their own terms.
Pure utopian nonsense. All that happens in practice is that society becomes dominated by an oligarchy that acts as if nobody else is deserving of wealth. The elite ends up rigging the markets for their benefit.

Or is plutocracy your ideal form of government?
 
Better to let business serve consumers, not babysit uncompetitive workers.

So when teacher unions over charge taxpayers or deliver an inferior product that's evil to you, but if the same thing applies in the IT world the prohibition is great even it if it hurts one group of workers at the expense of other workers and consumers.

It makes it seem that your philosophy is, "If it hurts me it's bad, if it doesn't then I will choose a different philosophy"

We are specifically talking about H1-Bs, not hiring cheaper Americans.

But the overall principle is the same: The economy works better if higher-paid workers are replaced by lower-paid workers, or by anything that does the job at lower cost. As long as this replacement is driven by the market supply/demand conditions.

Or -- the economy works better if the cost of production is kept down, as long as the quality is maintained. So higher costs should always be brought down while producing the same output. No matter what the cost is for, including for labor. There is nothing sacrosanct about labor that it alone should have to cost more than its market value. It's just one more cost that should be kept down by the market forces.

And whenever the cost of production rightly goes up, it's only in order to produce a higher-quality output. The standard of living of someone in that production process is irrelevant, because that's just the personal problem of that individual producer. For society generally, only the output matters, and keeping down the cost of it.


All consumers are made worse off when the company is prevented from saving on cost. You can't give any reason why it's wrong for companies to replace workers and for these to train their replacement. All you can say is that we have this bad law which hurts consumers but which has to be enforced because it's the law.

You fail to understand the mess that would result from unlimited immigration.

It depends on what kind of "immigration" you mean.

Higher immigration is no threat as long as those immigrants are earning their way and are not leeching off the taxpayers. It's only the parasitic ones who pose a threat coming in large numbers. Those who come to work and replace higher-cost workers are not a threat.

If those H1-Bs are receiving welfare payments or other freebies as part of the program, then you have a point. But I don't think that's the case.


We would rapidly descend to third-world levels.

If they are low-income workers, the increase of them could bring down the income per capita numbers. However, nothing else is descending. Every person is ascending, as those workers are made better off, and the native population is made better off by the cost savings and lower prices.

There's nothing wrong with those higher up benefiting from an increase in the number of those in the lower-income category. As long as no one's income is going down. Or rather, as long as the only incomes going down are that of the uncompetitive. It's OK for those less competitive to take a loss, which is the result of the proper reward-penalty process of the market.

Nothing descends to "third-world levels" if the production is improving and business increases its performance in serving consumers. Only a lower level of performance can cause a general decline to lower levels of well-being.


There's a limit on how fast we can absorb new workers and these days people can move around much faster than that.

What limit? Is there a limit on how fast we can replace workers with new technology? This too is replacing higher-paid workers, isn't it, with disruption to the replaced workers? Why is it OK to replace them by robots/computers as fast as we want but not by cheap labor or by immigrants?

In either case the good outcome is the same: better production to the benefit of consumers.
 
Free market/free trade = more immigrant labor = more competition = higher living standard.

Your posts continually feature extreme anger at workers, anger that any of your money is going to them.

If anyone is paid more than their market value, we all pay the cost, and society is worse off for it. Including when companies gain more than the market value for their product by means of anticompetitive practices like price-fixing, or by means of corporate welfare, or by fraud, or other practices which reward them not for their better performance but for their scheming or conniving to rip off someone. Is there not a proper "anger" when any producers get away with this?

To NOT replace a higher-paid worker with a robot or by cheap labor, when this would reduce costs and prices to consumers, is a ripoff against all consumers, just as corporate welfare and fraud etc. is a ripoff.


As to "consumers", where do they get their money from?

If they got it legitimately, they had to earn it by being paid the market value for their work, which is whatever the law of supply & demand says they're worth, and no more. ...

A nonhuman law of nature, like the law of gravity, it seems. How does one tell when it is operating properly?

When did the law of supply & demand ever improperly set the price of something?


It seems that "low prices for the consumer" is an end that can justify any means, no matter how criminal.

It's not "criminal" to replace a worker with something that gets the job done at lower cost. Or have that replaced worker train his replacement or help program the computer that's going to replace him. What's "criminal" about that? It makes society better off.


About "you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs", anti-Communists have long maintained that it is a key part of Communist morality, but it seems to be a key part of some capitalist apologists' morality also.

The demolition industry serves a legitimate function in the society.


The whole thing shows clearly that many US workers, perhaps most, are really overpaid and can easily be replaced, because there is such an oversupply of potential replacements.

All companies have to do is wipe the slate clean, eliminate a large number of jobs, then restructure the system and hire the ones they need (probably not as many), and recruit them at much reduced compensation levels.

Forcing down wages in a massive way will force a major shrinkage of much of the economy.

Propping them up artificially does greater harm. Letting supply & demand take its course would result in the elimination of only the uncompetitive elements, so that the remaining part will be more efficient and will expand to produce a higher living standard overall.

Just as some uncompetitive businesses need to disappear, so also the "jobs" which are uncompetitive need to disappear. It's the better-performing producers who need to remain, which is what happens as the law of supply & demand is allowed to weed out the worse performers and reward the better-performing producers.


Would you enjoy watching the United States slip to Third-World status?

Lower status happens when the underperformers are not weeded out. Higher performance by producers leads to higher status and higher living standard generally. Prosperity is created by better performance, not by rewarding parasites and the uncompetitive.

Parasitic practices in some countries with a high living standard are possible only because those countries have produced a high living standard as a result of higher performance. This higher living standard then has enabled those countries to afford to engage in some parasitic practices. Parasitic practices like overpaying workers, keeping them in "jobs" where they are not needed, etc., leads to a lower, not higher, living standard, all else being equal.


A "brain drain" to other countries?

The only "brain drain" is the anti-immigrant impulse which tries to obstruct an increase in immigrant workers, or which restricts immigrants who were educated here and incentivises them to leave rather than stay. While the free market and supply & demand encourages more immigrant workers and prevents any "brain drain."


Other nations buying US assets like crazy? Because that's what's going to happen if you get what you want.

Yes, there could be more of that. And there's nothing wrong with it. We've had a lot of it already, and no one can show any harm from it. We need to replace some U.S.-born CEOs with foreigners who perform the same function at lower cost.


If you got what you wanted, you may end up having to choose between taking orders from Berlin, Brasilia, and Beijing.

Whoever can run the business better.


Or would you relish the chance to learn German or Portuguese or Chinese as the case may be?

Americans need to learn more foreign languages.

It's obvious that the opposition to the immigrant work visas is due mostly to xenophobia.
 
And Corporate companies are pushing for more H1-B.


Leo Perrero had worked for the Walt Disney Co. in Orlando for more than 10 years, helping to run the point-of-sale systems at Walt Disney World and its other local parks, until late 2014. That's when he learned that his job, like 300 others, was going to be turned over to a foreign worker within 90 days, during which time he was expected to train his replacement.

LA Times

Talk about adding insult to injury.

You just want to put Big Government on the backs of the Job Creators!

Also, whenever they ship your jobs to people from other countries, it actually creates jobs in the US economy because the corporations make more profits and immediately use those profits to hire more people. It works on the same principle as balancing the budget by cutting taxes.

Lastly, you just hate the Job Creators because they are so much more moral and harder-working than you are. You just want to punish them for being successful! [/lampoon]
 
It depends on what kind of "immigration" you mean.

Higher immigration is no threat as long as those immigrants are earning their way and are not leeching off the taxpayers. It's only the parasitic ones who pose a threat coming in large numbers. Those who come to work and replace higher-cost workers are not a threat.

If those H1-Bs are receiving welfare payments or other freebies as part of the program, then you have a point. But I don't think that's the case.

No. There's another factor at work that you are missing:

Productivity is strongly related to the total amount of capital per worker. (This capital is both the tools the worker uses and the education the worker possesses. While it's commonly expressed in dollars $ in the bank by themselves do nothing.) When you bring in a bunch of people you now have more workers but you didn't add capital--the capital per worker goes down, the standard of living goes down because the workers aren't producing as much.

We would rapidly descend to third-world levels.

If they are low-income workers, the increase of them could bring down the income per capita numbers. However, nothing else is descending. Every person is ascending, as those workers are made better off, and the native population is made better off by the cost savings and lower prices.

I guess that the displaced Americans aren't people, then.

There's nothing wrong with those higher up benefiting from an increase in the number of those in the lower-income category. As long as no one's income is going down. Or rather, as long as the only incomes going down are that of the uncompetitive. It's OK for those less competitive to take a loss, which is the result of the proper reward-penalty process of the market.

There's no way we can be competitive with workers who are used to a third world standard of living but who are now here. (If they're over there the exchange rate will shift to keep things competitive.)
 
If anyone is paid more than their market value, ...
It seems that "the market" is some people's version of "God", a powerful nonhuman force that is always right.

We have no hint of when one ought to say "I'll have to shut up about how much I'm paying for this, because the workers are being paid the amount that that great god, The Market, has decided that they will be paid."

When did the law of supply & demand ever improperly set the price of something?
Another powerful nonhuman force, it seems.

Look at economic bubbles some time. They are glaring counterexamples to the presumption of market rationality.

Would you enjoy watching the United States slip to Third-World status?
Lower status happens when the underperformers are not weeded out. ...
(similar chest-thumping snipped for brevity)

If anything more than Third-World pay is too much, then forcing most people's wages down to Third-World level is what is going to produce Third-World status.

A "brain drain" to other countries?
The only "brain drain" is the anti-immigrant impulse which tries to obstruct an increase in immigrant workers, or which restricts immigrants who were educated here and incentivises them to leave rather than stay. While the free market and supply & demand encourages more immigrant workers and prevents any "brain drain."
Pure evasion. If US wages are forced down to Third-World levels for all except a tiny elite, and other countries don't follow suit, then you are going to get a brain drain. You can yell "No fair!" all you want, but that's what's going to happen.

Other nations buying US assets like crazy? Because that's what's going to happen if you get what you want.
Yes, there could be more of that. And there's nothing wrong with it.
So being at the business end of colonialism is something to be proud of? The American Revolution was fought in good part because of Britain's colonialist policies toward its North American colonies. Are you saying that you would have been on Britain's side? That you would have enjoyed being tarred and feathered for being on the wrong side?

If you got what you wanted, you may end up having to choose between taking orders from Berlin, Brasilia, and Beijing.
Whoever can run the business better.
Even if it's a colonial master?

Or would you relish the chance to learn German or Portuguese or Chinese as the case may be?
Americans need to learn more foreign languages.
After you.
 
"Job creation" = more slots in which to put the excess job-seeker scum who are cluttering up the place and need to be removed

Also, whenever they ship your jobs to people from other countries, it actually creates jobs in the US economy because the corporations make more profits and immediately use those profits to hire more people.

You're right that free-traders are lying when they promise more "jobs" -- but why are they lying? and what's the truth they're not telling?

Whereas your demand is that they stop "shipping our jobs" abroad and return home to perform their obligation of providing more "jobs" for the natives, what they really should do is point out that free trade, globalism, outsourcing etc. makes the American economy better overall by improving the production of wealth for everyone and raising the living standard, and this is the whole purpose of business and the economy, not to provide "jobs" i.e. ---

BABYSITTING SLOTS FOR CRYBABIES, which is what Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump and other free-trade bashers are clamoring for.

So when these companies say they're going to "create jobs" by means of trade and globalism, they're only PANDERING to the idiots, to the mob, to the rabble, and to demagogue-politicians and political activists trying to win votes from these rabble idiots, of which there are many.

So you're not only making fun of these companies pandering to rabble idiots who imagine that we can improve the economy by turning employers into babysitters, but you're also lampooning the right-wing and left-wing protectionist boneheads who are clamoring to force companies to perform this babysitting role instead of producing wealth.

These panderers and babysitter-promoters are winning the trade-politics battles right now with their Trumps and other panderers and blowhards who keep whipping the rabble up into hysteria. And it is comical how companies and the Chamber of Commerce try to pander to these idiots.

Here is an article which mostly gives the rational argument for outsourcing, but it still ends up insisting that "creating jobs" is some kind of goal or measure of the performance of the economy, i.e., providing babysitting slots:

http://www.commdiginews.com/politics-2/outsourcing-is-good-for-the-u-s-economy-26113/

But is outsourcing bad for the economy?

Numerous studies have indicated that outsourcing has had a minimal effect on job losses and, in the aggregate, may have actually added jobs. How can that be?

The reason a company chooses to manufacture a product outside of the U.S. is very clear: The company finds it is less costly, even considering the logistical costs of shipping raw materials and the finished goods. The cost savings are often significant. This allows the company to sell the products at much lower prices, so more Americans can consume them. And, of course, it increases profit.

That cost-reduction and profit improvement often results in an increase in employment. Consider, for instance, Delta Airlines in 2003. Delta moved 1,000 jobs to India. By doing so, it was able to reduce costs by $25 million. It used the money to fund 1,200 new reservation and sales positions in the United States, resulting in a net job gain.

Similarly, consider a consumer who needs to purchase a new smartphone. She finds that she can purchase a state-of-the-art model for about $600. If the phone were made in the U.S., the cost would be more than $1,800. After saving $1,200, she has more money to spend on other goods and services which will encourage the economy to grow.

The bottom line is that outsourcing results in lower costs for firms, greater profits for stockholders and lower prices for consumers — leading to an increase in the standard of living and an overall increase in employment.

Why, then, did an Associated Press-Ipsos poll in May 2004 find that 69 percent of Americans thought that “outsourcing” hurts the U.S. economy, while only 17 percent thought it helps? Today the percentage who believe outsourcing hurts, is probably higher.

The reason is that it is easy to see the negative effects of outsourcing as we watch manufacturing plants close and our sympathies are geared toward the displaced workers. It is difficult to see which new jobs were added as a result of the lower costs associated with outsourcing. Similarly, it is difficult to see the positive effects on our standard of living from products and services being profitably offered to consumers at much much lower prices. In short, the negatives are easily seen, and the positives aren’t.

Though the above correctly identifies how the benefits are ignored and only the negatives (job loss) is noticed, it still tries to make the case that maybe there's an overall INCREASE in "jobs" resulting from outsourcing.

There is no way to prove this with any data. And it doesn't matter. The fallacy is to accept the premise that "job creation" has to be the result, or that more "jobs" is the meaning of economic benefit, or even only part of the meaning. It's not.

What is the meaning of more "jobs"? Why is more "jobs" supposed to be necessary? Why is this any measure of what's "good" for the economy?

What if those "jobs" added by some program were totally worthless in producing any wealth? Suppose they were nothing but babysitting only, without any benefit other than providing a slot in which to put someone who would otherwise be out on the street panhandling or whatever. Would that still be a net benefit for the economy? Is that "job" a net gain for the economy because it took some rabble idiot off the street and put him into a job "slot" to keep him out of mischief?

Your answer has to be "YES" if you think that "job creation" is in itself a benefit or net gain for society. Because what this means is that there is some inherent good in the "job" that is independent of any economic or production benefit from the work done. It means that it's good for society even if there is NO production benefit added to the economy for the benefit of consumers or the public.


It works on the same principle as balancing the budget by cutting taxes.

No, just as cutting taxes may sometimes be good, but not to increase revenue, so also the benefit of letting companies hire foreign labor is not that it leads to more domestic "jobs" for the natives -- the pandering-to-idiots/more babysitting-slots argument. Rather, the benefit is that the increased profit from this is a REWARD to those companies for their greater success in serving consumers. This reward entices the company to do more of the same, which is to increase its production and offer more products/services at still lower prices to consumers.

In some cases this leads to additional "jobs" but in other cases to fewer. Maybe more often the latter, i.e., fewer domestic "jobs" because these workers are replaced by foreigners. But the benefit/harm is not measured by the number of jobs, but by the company's increased performance in doing what its real function is, i.e., to serve consumers.

Just like the company's real function is served by replacing the workers with robots/computers, which we all recognize is best for the whole economy, even if it means job loss. It's not these "jobs" that are the goal of the economy, but the improved service to consumers that matters.


Lastly, you just hate the Job Creators because they are so much more moral and harder-working than you are.

What's wrong here is the term "Job Creators" as if there is some basic function in the economy of providing "jobs" to people. There is no such legitimate function. The only function is that of satisfying the consumer demand, and the "job" is nothing more than a means to this end. The "job" has no intrinsic value in itself, and to speak of "job creation" as though this is a basic economic function is to believe that all those job-seekers out there, who crowd the personnel office when there are openings, are a basic stain on our society, an eyesore, a threat which has to be removed, and the "job" slots are a place to stuff them into in order to get them out of our hair.

If you have this fundamental contempt for the low-class masses out there, cluttering up the streets, then you believe we need this "job creation" and that we need these "Job Creators" to perform this service for us of removing this blight, of scooping up this scum from our streets and putting them somewhere that eliminates them as a threat to us, and you applaud those morally upright companies which perform the hard work of scooping up this scum and which seek your applause by boasting about how many new "jobs" they created.


You just want to punish them for being successful! [/lampoon]

I.e., for successfully serving this need, like President Obama thought the capitalists who received his "stimulus" dollars were providing a service by removing some scum job-seekers as a result of his "stimulus" program -- and he's one of those who praises those companies for being moral and successful in meeting this need to remove some of the scum. And you agree with this if you think there is a need for this "job creation" and "Job Creators" to perform this function to remove this scum.

And those capitalists who seek to be congratulated for performing this service, though they are buffoons we can laugh at for their babble-nonsense, are also making fools out of others who clamor for this "job creation" -- the economists and politicians and social critics and activists -- even the general public, e.g., the Trump and Sanders voters, who imagine that the marginal masses out there, who need these "slots" to be put into, are truly worthless scum whose highest good possible is to be removed from sight or neutralized as a threat.

They would not be so laughable and lampoonable if they would just admit outright that this is what they're saying with their code language.

The outsourcers play the semantical games because the critics force them to -- but what these capitalists must NOT do, to spare themselves from being laughed at, is to give in to the critics and literally "bring back the factories" etc. to provide "jobs" for the natives, out of guilt or shame, as repentant sinners seeking forgiveness, because the truth is that they are NOT guilty for seeking profit by doing their proper function of serving consumers.

To let Trump or Sanders or others bully them into bringing back "our jobs" would make them an even worse laughing stock, and also would damage the whole economy, all consumers, and reduce everyone's living standard.

The only gain would be some delight from an increase in some xenophobia hormone secretions.
 
Thank you for demonstrating exactly the argument I was lampooning. I couldn't have done better myself.

You see, guys? Shipping jobs overseas actually creates more jobs! If we could just ship all the jobs overseas, then we would have more jobs than we could know what to do with!

Please. We've gutted our own economy. Wages of pretty much everyone except for the rich is stagnating or in some cases falling behind inflation. Trickle-on economics don't work either. Making things better for the aristocrats doesn't improve anything for anyone but the aristocrats.
 
People and profits before crybabies!

For the record, note:

No one has given a reason why it's wrong/bad for a worker being replaced to train his replacement worker.

Everyone hates it, but no one can show how it's not good for the economy for the replaced worker to do this. It's the rational thing to do, just as it's rational for the worker being replaced by a robot to help program the robot before he's given his pink slip.

Same thing.

Company saves on (labor) cost = lower prices = best for the economy generally.
 
For the record, note:

No one has given a reason why it's wrong/bad for a worker being replaced to train his replacement worker.

Everyone hates it, but no one can show how it's not good for the economy for the replaced worker to do this. It's the rational thing to do, just as it's rational for the worker being replaced by a robot to help program the robot before he's given his pink slip.

Same thing.

Company saves on (labor) cost = lower prices = best for the economy generally.

We let everyone in, we fall to third-world levels.
 
Another thread that shows Lumpen not realizing that workers and consumers in the developed world are the same people.
 
Another thread that shows Lumpen not realizing that workers and consumers in the developed world are the same people.

All workers are consumers. Not all consumers are workers. In fact most consumers aren't workers. Children, house makers, retired people and etc. are all consumers, but don't work.
 
workers and consumers in the developed world are the same people.

And therefore what? Never replace a worker with a robot, because we need that worker to keep being paid income so he can keep performing his REAL function of consuming?

You could also say that RIGHT-HANDERS and consumers are the same people. (Probably a higher percent of consumers are right-handers than wage-earners.)
 
And Corporate companies are pushing for more H1-B.




LA Times

Talk about adding insult to injury.

I thought corporations controlled Congress, why is it even a debate then?

False dichotomy.

So either corporations have absolute control, out else everything is hunky dory, therefore we shouldn't worry about the fact that rich prior and large corporations have more influence over Congress than we mere voters?

Is there any excuse too lame for you to use in defense of the aristocracy?
 
workers and consumers in the developed world are the same people.
And therefore what? Never replace a worker with a robot, because we need that worker to keep being paid income so he can keep performing his REAL function of consuming?
As automation and artificial intelligence advance, mass technological unemployment becomes a serious possibility. Coupled with the fact that consumers don't get their spending money from money trees, that will be trouble.

Terminator, Robocop and Atlas the Robot. For workers the plot is grim | Polo Guilbert-Wright | Opinion | The Guardian
Would you bet against sex robots? AI 'could leave half of world unemployed' | Technology | The Guardian
Robot revolution: rise of 'thinking' machines could exacerbate inequality | Technology | The Guardian
Robots are leaving the factory floor and heading for your desk – and your job | Technology | The Guardian

Report Finds Rise Of Artificial Intelligence Could Spark Mass Unemployment And Inequality | IFLScience
 
The simple fact is that you get what you pay for. Cheap labor yields cheap service.

If you are opposed to companies hiring cheap labor to produce lower quality products and or services, then do not be their customer.

I have worked with many H-1B workers from India in the past. their "Masters Degree" from Bangladesh can best be compared with an undergraduate degree gotten from a standard US State University. Their undergrad program is like "AP High School classes".

The education system in India is designed to pump out highly certified, but poorly prepared, workers that look great on paper.. but when you actually work with them, it is exactly what you expect when you call any company's customer service and get that voice on the other end that makes you wish you never had to call.
 
I thought corporations controlled Congress, why is it even a debate then?

False dichotomy.

So either corporations have absolute control, out else everything is hunky dory, therefore we shouldn't worry about the fact that rich prior and large corporations have more influence over Congress than we mere voters?

Is there any excuse too lame for you to use in defense of the aristocracy?

If corporations controlled Congress this would be an easy to get the numbers upgraded at will.

Or as you said for your false dichotomy, corporations only have a little bit of control over Congress while other groups have control over congress too.
 
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