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The Problem of Evil (split from is atheism unappealing)

Learner

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STAFF COMMENT: THis is a split from the “Atheism unappealing” thread. Parts of this were split further to the “Thought Experiment” Thread.


(This is in a reply to this comment in the other thread)

Just to mention a different view to the theoretical Judeo-Christian concept of God. You have a different one to mine CC (no surprise). "The problem of the existence of evil" so described, is resolved when you read 'further' so to speak. Meaning when there is 'no more' existence of evil, that part is then ... the new Kingdom and Heaven bit.

 
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Just to mention a different view to the theoretical Judeo-Christian concept of God. You have a different one to mine CC (no surprise). "The problem of the existence of evil" so described, is resolved when you read 'further' so to speak. Meaning when there is 'no more' existence of evil, that part is then ... the new Kingdom and Heaven bit.

I am sure that that makes you feel better about believing something nonsensical, but as it is itself nonsensical, it doesn’t actually get you out of the logic trap.

Your god cannot be good, and omnipotent, and omnicognisant. You can only escape from the PoE by abandoning at least one of these putative traits (although doing so just runs your god smack bang into further demonstrable evidence for its incompatibility with our knowledge of reality).

To address your specific “solution”, we need only note that requiring suffering in a pre-“Kingdom and Heaven” subset of reality is needlessly cruel for an all knowing god with the ability to do something about it. It’s not sufficient that some, or even most, of existence be without suffering; To break the PoE, all of every single person’s existence must be pleasant. Evidence that this is not the case abounds, and requires only that you open your eyes.
 

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Just to mention a different view to the theoretical Judeo-Christian concept of God. You have a different one to mine CC (no surprise). "The problem of the existence of evil" so described, is resolved when you read 'further' so to speak. Meaning when there is 'no more' existence of evil, that part is then ... the new Kingdom and Heaven bit.

I am sure that that makes you feel better about believing something nonsensical, but as it is itself nonsensical, it doesn’t actually get you out of the logic trap.
Feeling better about believing in something "nonsensical" as you put it, sort of suggests I have some underline hidden doubt in the concept of the theistic God, which is not the case. I suppose you could also term your idea above as "pretending", which does sound like a logic trap.

Your god cannot be good, and omnipotent, and omnicognisant. You can only escape from the PoE by abandoning at least one of these putative traits (although doing so just runs your god smack bang into further demonstrable evidence for its incompatibility with our knowledge of reality).
The concept of God is an incredible notion YES of course. It doesn't compute; being at odds with the everyday conventional life experience, but indeed as an atheist describes his or her take on what they think the concept is about, it certainly will be nonsensical, to be presented as some extreme sounding silliness.

The 'problem with evil' which resides among human beings, depends on every individual's willing participation adding to the whole, in scale. Stating the obvious: free will, do what thou wilt selfishly, etc., etc. Causing extreme harm to your neihbour (not loving them as Jesus demands), whilst at the same time strangely, we are appalled by the atrocities - we say to ourselves "we have better morals than God of the bible!" despite noting/ ignoring the instructions demanding "thall shalt not murder etc..", or the guidance like, love your neihbour as yourself, or love your enemies!

To address your specific “solution”, we need only note that requiring suffering in a pre-“Kingdom and Heaven” subset of reality is needlessly cruel for an all knowing god with the ability to do something about it. It’s not sufficient that some, or even most, of existence be without suffering; To break the PoE, all of every single person’s existence must be pleasant. Evidence that this is not the case abounds, and requires only that you open your eyes.

The Bible has an explanation as to why evil came into the world. As believers (who agree) we accept the harsh world and we understand it won't last, it's a step to the next phase. The concept of the Biblical God being so simple to understand - Basically it says of YOUR own choosing and accord: Dont take part, or be part of the PoE!!!
 
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T.G.G. Moogly

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The Bible has an explanation as to why evil came into the world. As believers (who agree) we accept the harsh world and we understand it won't last, it's a step to the next phase. The concept of the Biblical God being so simple to understand - Basically it says of YOUR own choosing and accord: Dont take part, or be part of the PoE!!!
That's a pile of shit. It's enough to bring any sane, intelligent, rational, observant, loving, compassionate human being to atheism.
 

skepticalbip

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The Bible has an explanation as to why evil came into the world. As believers (who agree) we accept the harsh world and we understand it won't last, it's a step to the next phase. The concept of the Biblical God being so simple to understand - Basically it says of YOUR own choosing and accord: Dont take part, or be part of the PoE!!!
That's a pile of shit. It's enough to bring any sane, intelligent, rational, observant, loving, compassionate human being to atheism.
How can you say that? It is so obvious that there is evil in the world because Adam and Eve ate that fucking apple... the Bible says so. How else could evil be explained? 😜
 

Learner

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...
The Bible has an explanation as to why evil came into the world. As believers (who agree) we accept the harsh world and we understand it won't last, it's a step to the next phase. The concept of the Biblical God being so simple to understand - Basically it says of YOUR own choosing and accord: Dont take part, or be part of the PoE!!!
That's a pile of shit. It's enough to bring any sane, intelligent, rational, observant, loving, compassionate human being to atheism.
How can you say that? It is so obvious that there is evil in the world because Adam and Eve ate that fucking apple... the Bible says so. How else could evil be explained? 😜
I don't think it was an apple... the atheist concept perhaps. The forbidden fruit imo was sex, you know...the fig leaf hiding their shame and so on. "Go forth and be fruitful and multiply" doesn't mean with anyone or anything that moves, willy nilly. Hence why so much emphasis on all types of sexual taboos.;)
 

T.G.G. Moogly

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The Bible has an explanation as to why evil came into the world. As believers (who agree) we accept the harsh world and we understand it won't last, it's a step to the next phase. The concept of the Biblical God being so simple to understand - Basically it says of YOUR own choosing and accord: Dont take part, or be part of the PoE!!!
That's a pile of shit. It's enough to bring any sane, intelligent, rational, observant, loving, compassionate human being to atheism.
How can you say that? It is so obvious that there is evil in the world because Adam and Eve ate that fucking apple... the Bible says so. How else could evil be explained? 😜
I don't think it was an apple... the atheist concept perhaps. The forbidden fruit imo was sex, go forth and be fruitful doesn't mean with anyone or anything that moves, willy nilly . Hence so much emphasis on sexual taboos, and the fig leaf, due to embarrassment. ;)
That's dumber than square coconuts. Why the fuck did the giant spaceman give them sex organs?

See how idiotic theism is? It's certifiable insanity. if it wasn't so popular it would be.

But I digress. :)

The point was being made that when I experience awe and wonder I'm missing what is really happening, spooky spiritual connectivity. Sounds bizarre to someone who lives a satisfying and fulfilling life based on scientific naturalism. I'm sure everyone can appreciate such a position. Why did god put a block on me?
 

skepticalbip

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The Bible has an explanation as to why evil came into the world. As believers (who agree) we accept the harsh world and we understand it won't last, it's a step to the next phase. The concept of the Biblical God being so simple to understand - Basically it says of YOUR own choosing and accord: Dont take part, or be part of the PoE!!!
That's a pile of shit. It's enough to bring any sane, intelligent, rational, observant, loving, compassionate human being to atheism.
How can you say that? It is so obvious that there is evil in the world because Adam and Eve ate that fucking apple... the Bible says so. How else could evil be explained? 😜
I don't think it was an apple... the atheist concept perhaps. The forbidden fruit imo was sex, you know...the fig leaf hiding their shame and so on. "Go forth and be fruitful and multiply" doesn't mean with anyone or anything that moves, willy nilly. Hence why so much emphasis on all types of sexual taboos.;)
You are just making shit up. Where in the Bible does it say that evil is due to syngamy?
 

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The Bible has an explanation as to why evil came into the world. As believers (who agree) we accept the harsh world and we understand it won't last, it's a step to the next phase. The concept of the Biblical God being so simple to understand - Basically it says of YOUR own choosing and accord: Dont take part, or be part of the PoE!!!
That's a pile of shit. It's enough to bring any sane, intelligent, rational, observant, loving, compassionate human being to atheism.

I see, so you have a different conceptual version and you want to tell me of it in your next post? Or your limited response is all you could come up with coz you feel sleepy?
 

Learner

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The Bible has an explanation as to why evil came into the world. As believers (who agree) we accept the harsh world and we understand it won't last, it's a step to the next phase. The concept of the Biblical God being so simple to understand - Basically it says of YOUR own choosing and accord: Dont take part, or be part of the PoE!!!
That's a pile of shit. It's enough to bring any sane, intelligent, rational, observant, loving, compassionate human being to atheism.
How can you say that? It is so obvious that there is evil in the world because Adam and Eve ate that fucking apple... the Bible says so. How else could evil be explained? 😜
I don't think it was an apple... the atheist concept perhaps. The forbidden fruit imo was sex, you know...the fig leaf hiding their shame and so on. "Go forth and be fruitful and multiply" doesn't mean with anyone or anything that moves, willy nilly. Hence why so much emphasis on all types of sexual taboos.;)
You are just making shit up. Where in the Bible does it say that evil is due to syngamy?

You first. Where does it say apple?
 

Learner

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The Bible has an explanation as to why evil came into the world. As believers (who agree) we accept the harsh world and we understand it won't last, it's a step to the next phase. The concept of the Biblical God being so simple to understand - Basically it says of YOUR own choosing and accord: Dont take part, or be part of the PoE!!!
That's a pile of shit. It's enough to bring any sane, intelligent, rational, observant, loving, compassionate human being to atheism.
How can you say that? It is so obvious that there is evil in the world because Adam and Eve ate that fucking apple... the Bible says so. How else could evil be explained? 😜
I don't think it was an apple... the atheist concept perhaps. The forbidden fruit imo was sex, go forth and be fruitful doesn't mean with anyone or anything that moves, willy nilly . Hence so much emphasis on sexual taboos, and the fig leaf, due to embarrassment. ;)
That's dumber than square coconuts. Why the fuck did the giant spaceman give them sex organs?

See how idiotic theism is? It's certifiable insanity. if it wasn't so popular it would be.
Didn't see this post.

Quite simply this implies the action of disobeying Gods command, also meaning it was not the time to know of, or go hanky panky.
But I digress. :)

The point was being made that when I experience awe and wonder I'm missing what is really happening, spooky spiritual connectivity. Sounds bizarre to someone who lives a satisfying and fulfilling life based on scientific naturalism. I'm sure everyone can appreciate such a position. Why did god put a block on me?
Digressing would be best as per manner of your responses.
 

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...
The Bible has an explanation as to why evil came into the world. As believers (who agree) we accept the harsh world and we understand it won't last, it's a step to the next phase. The concept of the Biblical God being so simple to understand - Basically it says of YOUR own choosing and accord: Dont take part, or be part of the PoE!!!
That's a pile of shit. It's enough to bring any sane, intelligent, rational, observant, loving, compassionate human being to atheism.
How can you say that? It is so obvious that there is evil in the world because Adam and Eve ate that fucking apple... the Bible says so. How else could evil be explained? 😜
I don't think it was an apple... the atheist concept perhaps. The forbidden fruit imo was sex, go forth and be fruitful doesn't mean with anyone or anything that moves, willy nilly . Hence so much emphasis on sexual taboos, and the fig leaf, due to embarrassment. ;)
That's dumber than square coconuts. Why the fuck did the giant spaceman give them sex organs?

See how idiotic theism is? It's certifiable insanity. if it wasn't so popular it would be.

But I digress. :)

The point was being made that when I experience awe and wonder I'm missing what is really happening, spooky spiritual connectivity. Sounds bizarre to someone who lives a satisfying and fulfilling life based on scientific naturalism. I'm sure everyone can appreciate such a position. Why did god put a block on me?
“Go to any psychiatric hospital, and tell them that you have conversations with God. They won’t even let you go home to fetch your pyjamas” - Billy Connolly
 

bilby

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Feeling better about believing in something "nonsensical" as you put it, sort of suggests I have some underline hidden doubt in the concept of the theistic God, which is not the case.
No, it doesn’t suggest that.

It asserts that you are wrong, and suggests that you should have doubt; The fact that you don’t have the doubt that your position warrants is your mistake.

Failure to doubt the illogical and nonsensical is the primary failure of religion.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Just to mention a different view to the theoretical Judeo-Christian concept of God. You have a different one to mine CC (no surprise). "The problem of the existence of evil" so described, is resolved when you read 'further' so to speak. Meaning when there is 'no more' existence of evil, that part is then ... the new Kingdom and Heaven bit.

I am sure that that makes you feel better about believing something nonsensical, but as it is itself nonsensical, it doesn’t actually get you out of the logic trap.
Feeling better about believing in something "nonsensical" as you put it, sort of suggests I have some underline hidden doubt in the concept of the theistic God, which is not the case. I suppose you could also term your idea above as "pretending", which does sound like a logic trap.

Your god cannot be good, and omnipotent, and omnicognisant. You can only escape from the PoE by abandoning at least one of these putative traits (although doing so just runs your god smack bang into further demonstrable evidence for its incompatibility with our knowledge of reality).
The concept of God is an incredible notion YES of course. It doesn't compute; being at odds with the everyday conventional life experience, but indeed as an atheist describes his or her take on what they think the concept is about, it certainly will be nonsensical, to be presented as some extreme sounding silliness.

The 'problem with evil' which resides among human beings, depends on every individual's willing participation adding to the whole, in scale. Stating the obvious: free will, do what thou wilt selfishly, etc., etc. Causing extreme harm to your neihbour (not loving them as Jesus demands), whilst at the same time strangely, we are appalled by the atrocities - we say to ourselves "we have better morals than God of the bible!" despite noting/ ignoring the instructions demanding "thall shalt not murder etc..", or the guidance like, love your neihbour as yourself, or love your enemies!

To address your specific “solution”, we need only note that requiring suffering in a pre-“Kingdom and Heaven” subset of reality is needlessly cruel for an all knowing god with the ability to do something about it. It’s not sufficient that some, or even most, of existence be without suffering; To break the PoE, all of every single person’s existence must be pleasant. Evidence that this is not the case abounds, and requires only that you open your eyes.

The Bible has an explanation as to why evil came into the world. As believers (who agree) we accept the harsh world and we understand it won't last, it's a step to the next phase. The concept of the Biblical God being so simple to understand - Basically it says of YOUR own choosing and accord: Dont take part, or be part of the PoE!!!
What, God's silence to Cain after God's arbitrary favoritism with Abel?
 

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Feeling better about believing in something "nonsensical" as you put it, sort of suggests I have some underline hidden doubt in the concept of the theistic God, which is not the case.
No, it doesn’t suggest that.

It asserts that you are wrong, and suggests that you should have doubt; The fact that you don’t have the doubt that your position warrants is your mistake.

Well when you put in as "feeling better", it seemed to me you were suggesting that my previous emotional state of mind, meant, the previous not-so-good feeling I had about the belief, is the kind of doubt that I would have, as if, knowing or feeling that there's something wrong, so therefore I'll just put it in back of my mind and pretend itr's not there.

But ok, yes I can agree, there should be doubts, doubts enquires for correction, where one just keeps at it, looks and studies it - also defining with a little clarity on what one is trying to portray to someone, since there are several context variables i.e. all manner of doubts of various degrees. What I mean for example is: I have no doubt God loves us and the concept as I understand it, says, He wants us to get back to Him... that's what it reads quite clearly to me, which obviously is the total opposite to the not-so-nice mis-characterization view of God, usually portrayed by atheists.


 
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Hermit

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Every time I hear this sort of thing I think of that sort of thing:

Tsunami_kills_250,000_humans.jpg

Some of the more than 250,00 victims that were killed in under six hours by a tsunami in 2005
 

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Understandable, death was fore menioned way back in Genesis to happen. God is not on the scene anymore,it seems i.e. it's satans world now as its written,.. we didn't need God aparrently .
 

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Every time I hear this sort of thing I think of that sort of thing:

Tsunami_kills_250,000_humans.jpg

Some of the more than 250,00 victims that were killed in under six hours by a tsunami in 2005
God is not on the scene anymore,it seems i.e. it's satans world now as its written,.. we didn't need God aparrently .
God loves us by absenting himself and leaving us to Satan's tender mercies?
What.gif


This is not how I imagine God's love for us to manifest itself.
 

Learner

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Every time I hear this sort of thing I think of that sort of thing:

Tsunami_kills_250,000_humans.jpg

Some of the more than 250,00 victims that were killed in under six hours by a tsunami in 2005
God is not on the scene anymore,it seems i.e. it's satans world now as its written,.. we didn't need God aparrently .
God loves us by absenting himself and leaving us to Satan's tender mercies?
What.gif


This is not how I imagine God's love for us to manifest itself.

When God was around interacting with humans, we read that people or nations still went and worshipped other gods and traditions, turning their backs on God. Judgement & punishment was dealt out, right there and then in Gods presence!

Your question does ponder the thought: If God was around now, then I would wonder if there'd be that many people left, as sinners (myself included) would have fallen short of the commandments? Being dealt the consequences, like it was in the OT, being judged DIRECTLY when God was present; keeping to His word of the covenants, in which He can't take back, or, dismiss the promises declared. This makes the arrival of Jesus, highlight a loving God, to send a savior, even when you do break the commandments, etc..
 
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Hermit

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Every time I hear this sort of thing I think of that sort of thing:

Tsunami_kills_250,000_humans.jpg

Some of the more than 250,00 victims that were killed in under six hours by a tsunami in 2005
God is not on the scene anymore,it seems i.e. it's satans world now as its written,.. we didn't need God aparrently .
God loves us by absenting himself and leaving us to Satan's tender mercies?
What.gif


This is not how I imagine God's love for us to manifest itself.

When God was around interacting with humans, we read that people or nations still went and worshipped other gods and traditions, turning their backs on God. Judgement & punishment was dealt out, right there and then in Gods presence!

Your question does ponder the thought: If God was around now, then I would wonder if there'd be that many people left, as sinners (myself included) would have fallen short of the commandments?
No. Not at all. I ponder the thought: How do you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us"?
 

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The Bible has an explanation as to why evil came into the world. As believers (who agree) we accept the harsh world and we understand it won't last, it's a step to the next phase. The concept of the Biblical God being so simple to understand - Basically it says of YOUR own choosing and accord: Dont take part, or be part of the PoE!!!

The Bible says we were born with a sinful nature, does it not?
Who created us this way? God did.
Did any of us have any say in the matter? Fuck NO!

So when you say it is our choice to be sinful, you are lying for your god. Or you don't know how to read. Which is it?
 

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I don't think it was an apple... the atheist concept perhaps.

It was a fruit of some kind. That is what the Bible says:
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.


The forbidden fruit imo was sex, you know...the fig leaf hiding their shame and so on.

No, I don't know that. The Bible doesn't say it was sex, it says that God cursed Adam and Eve for eating from the tree of knowledge.
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”
10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”
11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”
12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”
13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

No mention of sex. The forbidden fruit was knowledge. And God didn't want his human robot toys to gain knowledge, to think for themselves.

"Go forth and be fruitful and multiply" doesn't mean with anyone or anything that moves, willy nilly. Hence why so much emphasis on all types of sexual taboos.;)
God is explicitly telling Adam and Eve to have sex and multiply. Why would God do that if he didn't want them to have sex? And why would he give Adam and Eve sex organs in Eden if he didn't want them to have sex? You are not making any sense.

There is nothing wrong with consenting adults having sex. None. We have had this discussion before, but you appear to have forgotten.
 

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What I mean for example is: I have no doubt God loves us and the concept as I understand it, says, He wants us to get back to Him... that's what it reads quite clearly to me, which obviously is the total opposite to the not-so-nice mis-characterization view of God, usually portrayed by atheists.
You have zero evidence that a god exists. You cannot even articulate what a god is or describe any of its characteristics. But you are certain that this creature loves us. Arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand.

Atheists read the Bible as written - a work of mythological fiction that was created about 2,000 years ago when humans had very little understanding of the world they lived in. Things haven't changed much since that time for some people. Christians lie for their god all the fucking time. How many times have I pointed out gross untruths that you have repeated in these forums over the years?
 

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Understandable, death was fore menioned way back in Genesis to happen. God is not on the scene anymore,it seems i.e. it's satans world now as its written,.. we didn't need God aparrently .
God is the absentee parent. He fucked up Adam and Eve's lives for disobeying him, and then vanished from the scene. Loving father indeed!

What a fucking joke.
 

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When God was around interacting with humans, we read that people or nations still went and worshipped other gods and traditions, turning their backs on God. Judgement & punishment was dealt out, right there and then in Gods presence!
When was god around to interact with humans? Where does the Bible say this? And why are you blaming humans for God turning his back on humanity?

Making up shit as usual. What a fucking joke.
 
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Jimmy Higgins

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Every time I hear this sort of thing I think of that sort of thing:

Tsunami_kills_250,000_humans.jpg

Some of the more than 250,00 victims that were killed in under six hours by a tsunami in 2005
I think of the convocation before the Indy 500, a light religious prayer asking for god to protect the drivers. When in fact, God has been hit or miss over the years. That in fact, it was science and engineering that saved the lives of Tom Sneva and Kevin Cogan (specifically at Indy), and prevented greater injury to so many other drivers. Eddie Sachs, Gordon Smiley, Scott Brayton weren't as lucky though.

But every year, they keep asking for God's protection. No thought or thanks to those who put in the Safer Barrier, designed the cockpit (Grosjean's life was saved because of all sorts of tech in his F1 crash), fire suits, etc...
 

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The Bible has an explanation as to why evil came into the world. As believers (who agree) we accept the harsh world and we understand it won't last, it's a step to the next phase. The concept of the Biblical God being so simple to understand - Basically it says of YOUR own choosing and accord: Dont take part, or be part of the PoE!!!

The Bible says we were born with a sinful nature, does it not?
Born with a sinful nature? Yes of course! Not ALL sins are equal!! Each sin has it's consequences, meted out accordingly. Certain sins may not be forgivable at all, according to the bible.

let's get our contexts in sync:

Now the 'problem with evil' and not taking part, as I previously mentioned... , is the type of evil that causes needless harm, suffering or death to others, and so to illustrate my example....

... HOW did YOU refrain from having any dark morbid thoughts and acting on those desires of say: raping vunerable innocent victims, or, what stopped YOU from killing people that really got on your nerves, when they got you so riled up? Do you refrain from any atrocious acts because you fear going to Jail or the consequence of some violent retaliation, OR, you turned away from going there, because your conscience (of compassion) got the better of you?

Who created us this way? God did.
Did any of us have any say in the matter? Fuck NO!

Understandable; you see its God's fault for sin to exist because 'technically' God caused ALL living creatures to exist.

So when you say it is our choice to be sinful, you are lying for your god. Or you don't know how to read. Which is it?
First part, lying for God, defeats the whole purpose (and logic), and still being a believer. Perhaps if I didn't really believe in God, then in this case you could say "I would be lying for the establishment or church" instead.
 
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Hermit

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Not ALL sins are equal!! Each sin has it's consequences, meted out accordingly. Certain sins may not be forgivable at all, according to the bible.
You still have not explained how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us". Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?
 
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Learner

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Not ALL sins are equal!! Each sin has it's consequences, meted out accordingly. Certain sins may not be forgivable at all, according to the bible.
You still have not explained how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us".

Thanks for bringing this back to my attention, much has happened. Unfortunately through such disasters; these were forewarned and to be expected, since death came into the world, as it read in Genesis. The reconciliation, although not preferably immediate, comes fom the bigger picture; is how I best explain it. Who else but only God Himself has that power and means to bring back to life All the dead? As written, He has declared His promise, that He will wipe all the sorrows and tears away etc..

If it says He loves us in the bible, which it does; then I haven't made that "assertion" . He declared the promise to us, as sinners the afterlife. AND rather than ridding the lot of us from existence because we are sinners; creating the perfect human 2.0 without us.....

We are the inclusion by God's intention, to be those humans 2.0.


Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?

Not according to the bible. Babies are innocent and have not had enough time to grow the awareness to potentially go astray. They get an automatic pass, in other words.
 

Hermit

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Not ALL sins are equal!! Each sin has it's consequences, meted out accordingly. Certain sins may not be forgivable at all, according to the bible.
You still have not explained how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us".

Thanks for bringing this back to my attention, much has happened. Unfortunately through such disasters; these were forewarned and to be expected, since death came into the world, as it read in Genesis. The reconciliation, although not preferably immediate, comes fom the bigger picture; is how I best explain it. Who else but only God Himself has that power and means to bring back to life All the dead? As written, He has declared His promise, that He will wipe all the sorrows and tears away etc..

If it says He loves us in the bible, which it does; then I haven't made that "assertion" . He declared the promise to us, as sinners the afterlife. AND rather than ridding the lot of us from existence because we are sinners; creating the perfect human 2.0 without us.....

We are the inclusion by God's intention, to be those humans 2.0.


Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?

Not according to the bible. Babies are innocent and have not had enough time to grow the awareness to potentially go astray. They get an automatic pass, in other words.
So, God's idea of loving us is to indiscriminately kill more than a quarter million humans - including thousands of innocent babies - in one go.
 

Learner

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Not ALL sins are equal!! Each sin has it's consequences, meted out accordingly. Certain sins may not be forgivable at all, according to the bible.
You still have not explained how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us".

Thanks for bringing this back to my attention, much has happened. Unfortunately through such disasters; these were forewarned and to be expected, since death came into the world, as it read in Genesis. The reconciliation, although not preferably immediate, comes fom the bigger picture; is how I best explain it. Who else but only God Himself has that power and means to bring back to life All the dead? As written, He has declared His promise, that He will wipe all the sorrows and tears away etc..

If it says He loves us in the bible, which it does; then I haven't made that "assertion" . He declared the promise to us, as sinners the afterlife. AND rather than ridding the lot of us from existence because we are sinners; creating the perfect human 2.0 without us.....

We are the inclusion by God's intention, to be those humans 2.0.


Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?

Not according to the bible. Babies are innocent and have not had enough time to grow the awareness to potentially go astray. They get an automatic pass, in other words.
So, God's idea of loving us is to indiscriminately kill more than a quarter million humans - including thousands of innocent babies - in one go.
"Indescriminately kill?" I thought you had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.." a few posts ago.
 
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Hermit

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Not ALL sins are equal!! Each sin has it's consequences, meted out accordingly. Certain sins may not be forgivable at all, according to the bible.
You still have not explained how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us".

Thanks for bringing this back to my attention, much has happened. Unfortunately through such disasters; these were forewarned and to be expected, since death came into the world, as it read in Genesis. The reconciliation, although not preferably immediate, comes fom the bigger picture; is how I best explain it. Who else but only God Himself has that power and means to bring back to life All the dead? As written, He has declared His promise, that He will wipe all the sorrows and tears away etc..

If it says He loves us in the bible, which it does; then I haven't made that "assertion" . He declared the promise to us, as sinners the afterlife. AND rather than ridding the lot of us from existence because we are sinners; creating the perfect human 2.0 without us.....

We are the inclusion by God's intention, to be those humans 2.0.


Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?

Not according to the bible. Babies are innocent and have not had enough time to grow the awareness to potentially go astray. They get an automatic pass, in other words.
So, God's idea of loving us is to indiscriminately kill more than a quarter million humans - including thousands of innocent babies - in one go.
"Indescriminately kill?" I thought you had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.." a few posts ago.
Which part of that post gave you the impression I had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.."? Here it is to save you from having to click on the link:
God loves us by absenting himself and leaving us to Satan's tender mercies?
What.gif


This is not how I imagine God's love for us to manifest itself.
 

Learner

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Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?

Not according to the bible. Babies are innocent and have not had enough time to grow the awareness to potentially go astray. They get an automatic pass, in other words.
So, God's idea of loving us is to indiscriminately kill more than a quarter million humans - including thousands of innocent babies - in one go.
"Indescriminately kill?" I thought you had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.." a few posts ago.
Which part of that post gave you the impression I had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.."? Here it is to save you from having to click on the link:
God loves us by absenting himself and leaving us to Satan's tender mercies?
What.gif


This is not how I imagine God's love for us to manifest itself.
Cheers, whether or not you take to it; you have registered that viewpoint at least in your previous post... "satan's world" which of course contradicts the notion "God kills indescriminately".
 

Hermit

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Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?

Not according to the bible. Babies are innocent and have not had enough time to grow the awareness to potentially go astray. They get an automatic pass, in other words.
So, God's idea of loving us is to indiscriminately kill more than a quarter million humans - including thousands of innocent babies - in one go.
"Indescriminately kill?" I thought you had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.." a few posts ago.
Which part of that post gave you the impression I had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.."? Here it is to save you from having to click on the link:
God loves us by absenting himself and leaving us to Satan's tender mercies?
What.gif


This is not how I imagine God's love for us to manifest itself.
Cheers, whether or not you take to it; you have registered that viewpoint at least in your previous post... "satan's world" which of course contradicts the notion "God kills indescriminately".
Learner, I had not taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world, no matter how desperately you interpret my post as meaning that. So, back to my request: Please explain how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us".
 

Learner

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Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?

Not according to the bible. Babies are innocent and have not had enough time to grow the awareness to potentially go astray. They get an automatic pass, in other words.
So, God's idea of loving us is to indiscriminately kill more than a quarter million humans - including thousands of innocent babies - in one go.
"Indescriminately kill?" I thought you had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.." a few posts ago.
Which part of that post gave you the impression I had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.."? Here it is to save you from having to click on the link:
God loves us by absenting himself and leaving us to Satan's tender mercies?
What.gif


This is not how I imagine God's love for us to manifest itself.
Cheers, whether or not you take to it; you have registered that viewpoint at least in your previous post... "satan's world" which of course contradicts the notion "God kills indescriminately".
Learner, I had not taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world, no matter how desperately you interpret my post as meaning that. So, back to my request: Please explain how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us".

Read the post of the bigger picture, that's my explanation. If you haven't cotton on yet... It is I who's taken to the notion... meaning you're asking me the wrong question.
 

Hermit

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Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?

Not according to the bible. Babies are innocent and have not had enough time to grow the awareness to potentially go astray. They get an automatic pass, in other words.
So, God's idea of loving us is to indiscriminately kill more than a quarter million humans - including thousands of innocent babies - in one go.
"Indescriminately kill?" I thought you had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.." a few posts ago.
Which part of that post gave you the impression I had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.."? Here it is to save you from having to click on the link:
God loves us by absenting himself and leaving us to Satan's tender mercies?
What.gif


This is not how I imagine God's love for us to manifest itself.
Cheers, whether or not you take to it; you have registered that viewpoint at least in your previous post... "satan's world" which of course contradicts the notion "God kills indescriminately".
Learner, I had not taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world, no matter how desperately you interpret my post as meaning that. So, back to my request: Please explain how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us".
Read the post of the bigger picture, that's my explanation. If you haven't cotton on yet... It is I who's taken to the notion... meaning you're asking me the wrong question.
Your post mentioning the bigger picture does not explain my original query. One more time, from the beginning: I quoted you as asserting "God loves us", and you wrote you had no doubt about it. I replied with a picture showing a few of the more than a quarter million people that were killed by a tsunami in 2005 and asked how you reconcile such massive cruelty with your assertion. The way I see it is that if there is a God, this event is evidence of him not loving us. His alleged absence is no excuse.
 

atrib

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Learner, I had not taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world, no matter how desperately you interpret my post as meaning that. So, back to my request: Please explain how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us".
He won't answer the question. His brain can't parse the idea that a god that indiscriminately kills a quarter million people, or allows them to be indiscriminately killed, is not a god that loves us. That conflicts with what he has been indoctrinated into believing: "God loves us". Since he knows he can't answer the question, he will play a form of passive-aggressive dodge with you pretending that he doesn't understand what you are asking him until you give up, or he stops responding.
 

rousseau

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I agree that religion does comfort some people, but it causes a lot of distress for some people too. For example, conservative Christians usually believe that those outside their version of Christianity are headed for hell. Some Catholics hold similar views. I used to feel sorry for my mother because according to her religion, I'm going to hell to be tortured. However, she grew wise with age. She told my husband when she was in her early 80s that there was no way she could believe that I was going to hell. I felt good for her.

I can't imagine believing such nonsense, but if I did, it would be painful to think that friends and family members would be punished eternally for not sharing my beliefs. That's an element of the beauty of atheism. We don't see other people as headed for some terrible punishment due to their beliefs.

Religion is often like a crutch that some need to help them navigate the difficulties of life. Some are just drawn to mythology and others need a community of like minded people. And, sometimes religion provides an organized outlet to do charitable works. I accept that religion can be helpful or destructive, depending on the nature of the mythology.

The only thing that I might miss is having a community. I think having a community of like minded people probably keeps some Christians in the fold. I've been a member of many atheist or humanist groups in real life, but we aren't very good at keeping the cats herded, so I've seen some of my groups fade away.

This is a good reminder. I do sometimes forget that Christianity can be a little more intense in some places.
 

Jarhyn

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Have the thousands of babies among the victims of the tsunami committed unforgivable sins?

Not according to the bible. Babies are innocent and have not had enough time to grow the awareness to potentially go astray. They get an automatic pass, in other words.
So, God's idea of loving us is to indiscriminately kill more than a quarter million humans - including thousands of innocent babies - in one go.
"Indescriminately kill?" I thought you had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.." a few posts ago.
Which part of that post gave you the impression I had taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world ...etc.."? Here it is to save you from having to click on the link:
God loves us by absenting himself and leaving us to Satan's tender mercies?
What.gif


This is not how I imagine God's love for us to manifest itself.
Cheers, whether or not you take to it; you have registered that viewpoint at least in your previous post... "satan's world" which of course contradicts the notion "God kills indescriminately".
Learner, I had not taken to the notion that "God was absent and this was satan's world, no matter how desperately you interpret my post as meaning that. So, back to my request: Please explain how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us".
Read the post of the bigger picture, that's my explanation. If you haven't cotton on yet... It is I who's taken to the notion... meaning you're asking me the wrong question.
Your post mentioning the bigger picture does not explain my original query. One more time, from the beginning: I quoted you as asserting "God loves us", and you wrote you had no doubt about it. I replied with a picture showing a few of the more than a quarter million people that were killed by a tsunami in 2005 and asked how you reconcile such massive cruelty with your assertion. The way I see it is that if there is a God, this event is evidence of him not loving us. His alleged absence is no excuse.
So in order to address a cosmology that I doubt exists at all, I generally tend to look at cosmologies that absolutely do exist.

Like my stupid little game which is actually a contained universe in a jar.

What can certainly be said is that there is at least one multiverse and THIS is the host of the one we can see, our actions creating a great many leaves of instance of particular story, of sequences operating upon the trunk of it's physics.
I think of the convocation before the Indy 500, a light religious prayer asking for god to protect the drivers. When in fact, God has been hit or miss over the years. That in fact, it was science and engineering that saved the lives of Tom Sneva and Kevin Cogan (specifically at Indy), and prevented greater injury to so many other drivers. Eddie Sachs, Gordon Smiley, Scott Brayton weren't as lucky though.

But every year, they keep asking for God's protection. No thought or thanks to those who put in the Safer Barrier, designed the cockpit (Grosjean's life was saved because of all sorts of tech in his F1 crash), fire suits, etc...
What's the takeaway lesson? For me it's that people are superstitious and still like to believe in magic. Asking a magic creature to protect me from danger is evidence enough. It just feels good I suppose, like when I feel good watching a movie or reading a book. But I can feel good without living my life as if the magic is real. I can switch modes. Some people cannot.

In the case mentioned earlier by rousseau it would be interesting to ask such a person if he really believes in all the magic or is just finding comfort in the community and the act of pretending.
I'm going to rephrase this as "asking an object of my own neural infrastructure to be attentive in parallel to my own attention, and to make me consciously aware of those dangers or even acting 'reflexively' or 'unconscously' or 'subconsciously'"

When you look at it like that and accept that whatever-it-is is a part of "the larger you" and may operate similarly to the way you do as a part of "the larger you", and have access to the same "larger you" that you do, or at least lesser suggestive access...

Well, then the "magic" IS real, and also quite literally "insane".
 

Jimmy Higgins

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I think of the convocation before the Indy 500, a light religious prayer asking for god to protect the drivers. When in fact, God has been hit or miss over the years. That in fact, it was science and engineering that saved the lives of Tom Sneva and Kevin Cogan (specifically at Indy), and prevented greater injury to so many other drivers. Eddie Sachs, Gordon Smiley, Scott Brayton weren't as lucky though.

But every year, they keep asking for God's protection. No thought or thanks to those who put in the Safer Barrier, designed the cockpit (Grosjean's life was saved because of all sorts of tech in his F1 crash), fire suits, etc...
What's the takeaway lesson? For me it's that people are superstitious and still like to believe in magic. Asking a magic creature to protect me from danger is evidence enough. It just feels good I suppose, like when I feel good watching a movie or reading a book. But I can feel good without living my life as if the magic is real. I can switch modes. Some people cannot.
There is an inherent need to feel that we have some level of control over the future. We fear (or are anxious regarding) the unknown and demand that we know it or can control it.
 

Rhea

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Please explain how you reconcile a tsunami that kills more than a quarter million people in under six hours with your assertion, "God loves us".
He won't answer the question. His brain can't parse the idea […] he will play a form of passive-aggressive dodge with you pretending that he doesn't understand what you are asking him until you give up, or he stops responding.
I think you’re discovering that this IS his answer. He does not reconcile it.

He dismisses the painful information from his universe. Reality has no object permanence, and he utterly erases misdeeds and plot holes from his cognition.
 

atrib

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The Bible has an explanation as to why evil came into the world. As believers (who agree) we accept the harsh world and we understand it won't last, it's a step to the next phase. The concept of the Biblical God being so simple to understand - Basically it says of YOUR own choosing and accord: Dont take part, or be part of the PoE!!!

The Bible says we were born with a sinful nature, does it not?
Born with a sinful nature? Yes of course!
So we were created by God to have a sinful nature. You or I did not choose to be born that way; we were created that way. Please remember this, since it will come up later.


Not ALL sins are equal!! Each sin has it's consequences, meted out accordingly. Certain sins may not be forgivable at all, according to the bible.

let's get our contexts in sync:

Now the 'problem with evil' and not taking part, as I previously mentioned... , is the type of evil that causes needless harm, suffering or death to others, and so to illustrate my example....
How is this relevant to the discussion? We are not talking about the relative gravity of individual sins, but that we were all created by God to be sinful. Please keep your eyes on the ball and not try to divert the discussion into irrelevant details.


... HOW did YOU refrain from having any dark morbid thoughts and acting on those desires of say: raping vunerable innocent victims, or, what stopped YOU from killing people that really got on your nerves, when they got you so riled up? Do you refrain from any atrocious acts because you fear going to Jail or the consequence of some violent retaliation, OR, you turned away from going there, because your conscience (of compassion) got the better of you?
Are you telling us that you would be raping and killing innocent people if you didn't believe in God? Do you frequently get thoughts like this?

I have never once thought about killing anybody, or raping anybody. Not fucking once! I do get upset with people once in a while, especially people who lie to my face and try to deceive me, but I never think about killing them. Not even the brainwashed Christians who have sacrificed their intellectual integrity on the altar of their faith.


Who created us this way? God did.
Did any of us have any say in the matter? Fuck NO!

Understandable; you see its God's fault for sin to exist because 'technically' God caused ALL living creatures to exist.
How can it not be God's fault?
God created us all. Yes or no?
God created us all with our sinful natures. Yes or no?
You or I had no say in the matter. Yes or no?
Whose fault is it if not God's?


First part, lying for God, defeats the whole purpose (and logic), and still being a believer. Perhaps if I didn't really believe in God, then in this case you could say "I would be lying for the establishment or church" instead.
No, you are lying to cover up your God's bad behavior. Because your religious programming will not allow you to think rationally or assign any blame to your God. You are just like the people in North Korea who have been taught that Kim Jong-un is a god, that he can do no wrong, and their programmed minds will not allow them to even consider the possibility that they are wrong.

Your God created us with our sinful nature. How can it be our fault that we sin when we were created by God to sin?
But then God will punish us for acting sinful. How does this make sense? Why should we be punished for doing something that God designed us to do?

I know you won't answer these questions. But I am hoping that one of these days you might actually stop and think about what others are telling you. That one day you will be able to free your mind from the cage you have locked it up in.
 

T.G.G. Moogly

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You are just like the people in North Korea who have been taught that Kim Jong-un is a god, that he can do no wrong, and their programmed minds will not allow them to even consider the possibility that they are wrong.
Selection pressure. Dare to question or oppose and the god becomes violent.
 

skepticalbip

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You are just like the people in North Korea who have been taught that Kim Jong-un is a god, that he can do no wrong, and their programmed minds will not allow them to even consider the possibility that they are wrong.
Selection pressure. Dare to question or oppose and the god becomes violent.
But only because he loves you... 👀
 

Learner

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Your post mentioning the bigger picture does not explain my original query. One more time, from the beginning: I quoted you as asserting "God loves us", and you wrote you had no doubt about it. I replied with a picture showing a few of the more than a quarter million people that were killed by a tsunami in 2005 and asked how you reconcile such massive cruelty with your assertion.
As I have already answered, although not to your liking, or our forum friends who are giving you their little support, maintaining the delusion thats seems to be merely hanging on a wee tiny thread i.e." I won't answer, I can't answer etc.".

I can tell you,even as a theist, and you may agree... nature killed those unfornates not God nor the devil.

The way I see it is that if there is a God, this event is evidence of him not loving us. His alleged absence is no excuse.
Yes I see the your logic..similar to Atrib's. Gods absence implies God kills indescriminately... :rolleyes:

( I'm watching a video, forgot I was logged in,, will respond to everyone in a bit)
 

bilby

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nature killed those unfornates not God
To suggest that nature can override the wishes of God is to admit that God is powerless, or more likely, non-existent.

Did God not have the ability to prevent nature from doing this? Or did God not know about it? Or did God not care?
 

Hermit

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Your post mentioning the bigger picture does not explain my original query. One more time, from the beginning: I quoted you as asserting "God loves us", and you wrote you had no doubt about it. I replied with a picture showing a few of the more than a quarter million people that were killed by a tsunami in 2005 and asked how you reconcile such massive cruelty with your assertion.
As I have already answered, although not to your liking, or our forum friends who are giving you their little support, maintaining the delusion thats seems to be merely hanging on a wee tiny thread i.e." I won't answer, I can't answer etc.".

I can tell you,even as a theist, and you may agree... nature killed those unfornates not God nor the devil.
Your putative god made everything, including a planet with tectonic plates the movements of which cause earthquakes and tsunamis. If he exists, he is the responsible for the deaths they cause.
The way I see it is that if there is a God, this event is evidence of him not loving us. His alleged absence is no excuse.
Yes I see the your logic..similar to Atrib's. Gods absence implies God kills indescriminately... :rolleyes:
The alleged absence of your alleged god does not relieve him from responsibility for the deaths for the same reason the Ford car company was held responsible for the fiery deaths of people driving the Ford Pinto. The placement of the car's petrol tank turned out to be a serious design fault. Ford could not argue that the company was not responsible for the deaths because it was not at the scene of the accidents when they happened. The court found it guilty of the deaths, and rightly so.

Your god, if he exists, does not love us. Disasters like the 2005 tsunami are proof of that.
 

Learner

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nature killed those unfornates not God
To suggest that nature can override the wishes of God is to admit that God is powerless, or more likely, non-existent.

Did God not have the ability to prevent nature from doing this? Or did God not know about it? Or did God not care?
(Responding in no particular order)

Good questions. For the sake of decent discussion, heres my view from a theistic perspective. God created systems i.e. the universe is automatic. or automated, hence obviously, we have cycles and seasons, where we, with a bit of summing up from observation, get a good fair amount of predictability from repeatable natural processes observed; setting our charts and tables by. "He made the moon to mark the seasons...( btw also tells us, the moon is not a god. ;))

God is not at the helm to prevent these things anymore, in a manner of speaking,e.g., 'No God' is what people wished for, That's not until that is... the return of Christ. Death is harsh, yes, and death is inevitable as the bible is written : 'it is appointed for man to die once...Heb 2:7" (some aspects to this, as to why the flesh has to die; it maybe tainted (genetically) ) we will see and experience tribulation as Jesus says. It's not comforting I know, during those periods. The anwsers is tough one, yes of course. I say simply (the pay-grade I'm limited to), He loves us because we still exist, even when we turn our backs on Him. He gives life and He ressurects the dead.
 
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bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
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Strong Atheist
nature killed those unfornates not God
To suggest that nature can override the wishes of God is to admit that God is powerless, or more likely, non-existent.

Did God not have the ability to prevent nature from doing this? Or did God not know about it? Or did God not care?
(Responding in no particular order)

Good questions. For the sake of decent discussion, heres my view from a theistic perspective. God created systems i.e. the universe is automatic. or automated, hence obviously, we have cycles and seasons, where we, with a bit of summing up from observation, get a good fair amount of predictability from repeatable natural processes observed; setting our charts and tables by. "He made the moon to mark the seasons...( btw also tells us, the moon is not a god. ;))

God is not at the helm to prevent these things anymore, in a manner of speaking,e.g., 'No God' is what people wished for, That's not until that is... the return of Christ. Death is harsh, yes, and death is inevitable as the bible is written : 'it is appointed for man to die once...Heb 2:7" (some aspects to this, as to why the flesh has to die, it maybe tainted, genetically) we will see and experience tribulation as Jesus says. It's not comforting I know, during those periods. The anwsers is tough one, yes of course. I say simply (the pay-grade I'm limited to), He loves us because we still exist, even when we turn our backs on Him. He gives life and He ressurects the dead.
Ah, OK. So God created an utterly shit, unsafe design, set it going in full knowledge that it was totally shit and massively unsafe, and now you want to say that he is blameless when his unsafe shit design killed a bunch of people, because he didn’t know that would happen, or was powerless to stop it, or didn’t care.

Sounds to me like your ‘explanation’ leaves you exactly where you started - with a God who is either powerless, ignorant, or uncaring. You just think that it’s OK, because he only set things in motion.

A bit like it’s not OK to burn someone’s house down and kill them and their family, but it’s perfectly OK to design an incendiary bomb with a timer, because then it’s the timer that killed them, not the designer of the bomb.
 
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