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The Regressive Left forces woman to be good

Don2 (Don1 Revised)

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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/08/us/alaska-children-alone.html

Woman leaves 5 year old and baby alone in house. Power goes out. The 5 year old carries the baby miles away to another house! Miles away in weather below zero.

The caretaker, Ms. Peters, would be completely free to leave them in the street in a Libertarian paradise. But, no, the regressive left has to arrest her for endangering minors. Liberals once again forcing people to be good...
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/08/us/alaska-children-alone.html

Woman leaves 5 year old and baby alone in house. Power goes out. The 5 year old carries the baby miles away to another house! Miles away in weather below zero.

The caretaker, Ms. Peters, would be completely free to leave them in the street in a Libertarian paradise. But, no, the regressive left has to arrest her for endangering minors. Liberals once again forcing people to be good...

It isn't clear to me why this story reflects on the left more than the right, or a tradcon, or any other particular non-anarchist ideology.

If anything, it's elements of the extreme regressive left-- the "don't imprison women for anything" and "no police" sjw-feminist types that would see the woman who endangered those children walk free.
 
Nitpick: Half a mile.

Distance or displacement? Note how long it took...

I had to read it a couple of times: the long time frame was how long it took the troopers to reach the remote location. They had to charter a plane. And battle very cold weather. A small fraction of that much time in that weather would have been fatal to those kids.
 
Nitpick: Half a mile.



Non-nitpicky things:

5 year old
18 month old
Alone with no supervision
-31 degrees F.
Older child was lightly dressed and wearing socks.
But it was a dry cold. The children are supposed to be alright, so I've got to wonder how poorly dressed a kid can be, to walk in the bitter cold for what 20 to 30 minutes? Any exposed skin would be toast pretty quickly.
 
Nitpick: Half a mile.



Non-nitpicky things:

5 year old
18 month old
Alone with no supervision
-31 degrees F.
Older child was lightly dressed and wearing socks.
But it was a dry cold. The children are supposed to be alright, so I've got to wonder how poorly dressed a kid can be, to walk in the bitter cold for what 20 to 30 minutes? Any exposed skin would be toast pretty quickly.

Sleep deprived right now so I can't tell if there's snark or not.

Lightly dressed in socks and no boots and presumably exposed skin = frostbite in very short time. Kids are hospitalized with unspecified injuries but expected to make full recovery. I would expect some frostbite and definite hypothermia.
 
Nitpick: Half a mile.

Distance or displacement? Note how long it took...

I had to read it a couple of times: the long time frame was how long it took the troopers to reach the remote location. They had to charter a plane. And battle very cold weather. A small fraction of that much time in that weather would have been fatal to those kids.

Okay, my mistake. I thought the route out in the middle of nowhere with a town of 166 was likely to be circuitous after reading that it took hours. I guess In interpreted that wrong. So, the distance from house to house was 1/2 a mile, but I am not certain the child would have known how to get there.

Written to Loren:
Toni said:
Non-nitpicky things:

5 year old
18 month old
Alone with no supervision
-31 degrees F.
Older child was lightly dressed and wearing socks.

...but if you force a caretaker to be there, that's direct physical harm which Libertarian ideology is against.

...libertarians exhibit a historical inability to adequately explain how parents should relate to their children, why parents are obligated (if at all) to care for their children, and whether or not moral nations should require that parents feed, clothe, and shelter their children within a libertarian frame.

Consider Lew Rockwell, former congressional chief of staff for Rand’s father, Ron. Rockwell, who may or may not have had a hand in composing the now infamously racist and homophobic slew of newsletters sent out to Ron Paul fans between the late '70s and early '90s, is a professed fan of child labor. Complaining of laws that prevent, among other things, second-graders from operating forklifts, Rockwell opines that “we are still saddled with anti-work laws that stunt young people’s lives.” Like Rand Paul on vaccine mandates, Rockwell sees child labor laws as government overreach. “In a free and decent society, decisions about these matters are for parents, not bureaucrats,” Rockwell writes, referring to whether or not schoolchildren should be breadwinners. The type of society Rockwell envisions here hardly seems "decent," but it would certainly be "free" in the way Paul imagines, and in that sense it is perfectly libertarian.

Rockwell’s mentor, Murray Rothbard, one of the twentieth century’s more famous libertarians, was similarly fond of kids in the workplace. Rothbard imagined that laws against child labor were passed in order to artificially inflate the wages of adults, who viewed children as competition capable of underbidding them. “Supposedly ‘humanitarian’ child labor laws,” Rothbard remarks in his book The Ethics of Liberty, “have systematically forcibly prevented children from entering the labor force, thereby privileging their adult competitors.” While the real impetus behind child labor laws was child welfare, it is telling that Rothbard tended to look upon kids with a suspicious eye, and his ethics bear out this cold approach. Later in The Ethics of Liberty, Rothbard, in keeping with the libertarian exaltation of personal freedom, argues that “no man can therefore have a ‘right’ to compel someone to do a positive act”—that is, because all people are free, by his account, your rights cannot impose positive actions on others. This means, Rothbard goes on, that a parent “may not murder or mutilate his child, and the law properly outlaws a parent from doing so. But the parent should have the legal right not to feed the child, i.e., to allow it to die.” He concludes that “the law, therefore, may not properly compel the parent to feed a child or to keep it alive.” To do so, for Rothbard, would be pure government overreach.
https://newrepublic.com/article/120...rians-have-long-had-horrifying-view-parenting
 
I do find a bit of dark humor in not releasing the id's of the kids due to them being minors... as if anyone in this village won't know what happened.
But it was a dry cold. The children are supposed to be alright, so I've got to wonder how poorly dressed a kid can be, to walk in the bitter cold for what 20 to 30 minutes? Any exposed skin would be toast pretty quickly.

Sleep deprived right now so I can't tell if there's snark or not.

Lightly dressed in socks and no boots and presumably exposed skin = frostbite in very short time. Kids are hospitalized with unspecified injuries but expected to make full recovery. I would expect some frostbite and definite hypothermia.
No snark, more thinking that there is science involved. Half mile, 5 year old lightly dressed, -31 degrees? The town appears to be less than a mile across. Something happened that shouldn't have.

The kids were in a position they should not have been. But half-mile, -31 degrees while under-dressed doesn't compute.
 
I do find a bit of dark humor in not releasing the id's of the kids due to them being minors... as if anyone in this village won't know what happened.
But it was a dry cold. The children are supposed to be alright, so I've got to wonder how poorly dressed a kid can be, to walk in the bitter cold for what 20 to 30 minutes? Any exposed skin would be toast pretty quickly.

Sleep deprived right now so I can't tell if there's snark or not.

Lightly dressed in socks and no boots and presumably exposed skin = frostbite in very short time. Kids are hospitalized with unspecified injuries but expected to make full recovery. I would expect some frostbite and definite hypothermia.
No snark, more thinking that there is science involved. Half mile, 5 year old lightly dressed, -31 degrees? The town appears to be less than a mile across. Something happened that shouldn't have.

The kids were in a position they should not have been. But half-mile, -31 degrees while under-dressed doesn't compute.

The baby could have been underdressed but held in such a way so as to reduce skin exposure instinctively because that would add warmth not just to the baby but also the 5 year old. The 5 year old may have had trouble also putting shoes onto the baby or half-ass wrapped it in a blanket/put it in something for easier carrying that also could have mitigated exposure to wind.

Anyway, Libertarian ideology dictates that charging the woman is government overreach. I am sure you know why I made the thread, including the phrase "force ...to be good." It's because it's a common theme in conservolibertarian paradise debates just like the other thread. Libertaranism is bankrupt in this regard and Libertarians have to make an exception to their own ideology in order to force parents [or in this case babysitters] to care for kids.
 
I do find a bit of dark humor in not releasing the id's of the kids due to them being minors... as if anyone in this village won't know what happened.
But it was a dry cold. The children are supposed to be alright, so I've got to wonder how poorly dressed a kid can be, to walk in the bitter cold for what 20 to 30 minutes? Any exposed skin would be toast pretty quickly.

Sleep deprived right now so I can't tell if there's snark or not.

Lightly dressed in socks and no boots and presumably exposed skin = frostbite in very short time. Kids are hospitalized with unspecified injuries but expected to make full recovery. I would expect some frostbite and definite hypothermia.
No snark, more thinking that there is science involved. Half mile, 5 year old lightly dressed, -31 degrees? The town appears to be less than a mile across. Something happened that shouldn't have.

The kids were in a position they should not have been. But half-mile, -31 degrees while under-dressed doesn't compute.

It was dangerous for the kids to be unsupervised. Period. Full stop.

Half a mile is a long way for a 5 year old carrying an 18 month old in good weather. Even accounting for the fact that to a certain extent, one adapts to weather and that this weather was probably pretty usual for that village at this time of year, no matter how weather adapted, that temp will cause frostbite to any exposed skin pretty quickly, especially for young children. Fortunately, children to recover quickly and fortunately, they made it to safety. It could have been a much more serious situation. The children could easily have succumbed to the cold and died of hypothermia, even dressed appropriately. I'm guessing that living in that climate helped them be more acclimated to the cold but it was really dangerous.
 
Nitpick: Half a mile.



Non-nitpicky things:

5 year old
18 month old
Alone with no supervision
-31 degrees F.
Older child was lightly dressed and wearing socks.

Yeah, it's still quite an accomplishment. That's why I said "nitpick"--I was objecting to the detail, not the overall point.
 
I do find a bit of dark humor in not releasing the id's of the kids due to them being minors... as if anyone in this village won't know what happened.
No snark, more thinking that there is science involved. Half mile, 5 year old lightly dressed, -31 degrees? The town appears to be less than a mile across. Something happened that shouldn't have.

The kids were in a position they should not have been. But half-mile, -31 degrees while under-dressed doesn't compute.

It was dangerous for the kids to be unsupervised. Period. Full stop.

Half a mile is a long way for a 5 year old carrying an 18 month old in good weather. Even accounting for the fact that to a certain extent, one adapts to weather and that this weather was probably pretty usual for that village at this time of year, no matter how weather adapted, that temp will cause frostbite to any exposed skin pretty quickly, especially for young children. Fortunately, children to recover quickly and fortunately, they made it to safety. It could have been a much more serious situation. The children could easily have succumbed to the cold and died of hypothermia, even dressed appropriately. I'm guessing that living in that climate helped them be more acclimated to the cold but it was really dangerous.

Yup, 5 with a trusted adult next door might very well be ok. 5 with the closest adult half a mile of winter conditions away is totally unacceptable.
 
So are we all happy with the woman being properly sanctioned now with no snark or libertarianism froth.

Besides the woman is being sanctioned for permitting harm. Society is not forcing her to be good.

If you put a bear trap on a welcome mat and leave the gate open you are setting conditions permitting harm.
 
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