• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

The story so far...

Stephen T-B

Stephen T-B
Joined
Apr 9, 2002
Messages
81
Location
Yorkshire UK
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
I offer this summary as the basis for a conversation (sorry for its length)...
The Story.
Stage 1.
An immortal entity, worshipped as a god and referred to variously as God, Lord, Yahweh, the Godhead, creates the universe and the Earth and two fatally-flawed temporal beings (Adam and Eve, progenitors of all humanity) who are possessed by metaphysical souls which, on account of that inherent flaw, perish along with their hosts.

Stage 2
The god entity selects a subsequent being (Abraham) to be the founder of a nation (the Jews), whose souls will attain immortality provided their hosts observe a plethora of rules regulating diet, food preparation, clothing materials, beliefs, religious rituals (along with various kinds of sacrifice) and general behaviour.

Stage 3
The god entity generates a humanoid version of itself (Jesus) with the commission to enable the souls of all humankind, regardless of race, to attain immortality provided their hosts;
a) worship the god entity;
b) acknowledge the divinity of Jesus;
c) acknowledge the flaws in the flawed nature they inherited, plus other specific wrong-doings they may have committed,
and
d) treat one an other with respect.
Jesus is to achieve his commission by offering himself up as a blood sacrifice on behalf of humankind to appease the god entity which continues to be offended by the flaws in the flawed nature it gave Adam and Eve and which all their descendants inherited.

Stage 4
Hell and eternal torment become central features in main-stream Christian doctrine, and simultaneously, Satan graduates from subversive mischief-maker and tempter to becoming the embodiment of evil; the enemy of God, intent on inducing humans to offend him, thus condemning their souls to eternal torment in Hell, over which he presides.

(Stage 3 has a variation, in that some people acknowledge the divine commission given to Jesus but deny his divinity, and stage 4 has variations, among which is a belief that the dead will be resurrected on Judgement Day, their souls winning immortality or being finished off, permanently.)
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
25,723
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
An immortal entity, worshipped as a god and referred to variously as God, Lord, Yahweh, the Godhead, creates the universe and the Earth
That's already absurd, as it suggests an importance for the Earth that is massively out of proportion.

The Earth is barely noticeable as a fraction of the solar system, which as Arthur C Clarke observed, consists of the Sun, Jupiter, and assorted debris.

If I said that I built my house, and put that particular mote of dust in the corner of the second bedroom, that would be much less absurdly attentive to the dust mote than saying that God created the Milky Way galaxy and the Earth. And the Milky Way is less still than a dust mote, by comparison to the universe.

These religious nuts have zero sense of scale, and a literally astronomically over-inflated sense of their own importance.
 

Stephen T-B

Stephen T-B
Joined
Apr 9, 2002
Messages
81
Location
Yorkshire UK
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
An immortal entity, worshipped as a god and referred to variously as God, Lord, Yahweh, the Godhead, creates the universe and the Earth
That's already absurd, as it suggests an importance for the Earth that is massively out of proportion.

The Earth is barely noticeable as a fraction of the solar system, which as Arthur C Clarke observed, consists of the Sun, Jupiter, and assorted debris.

If I said that I built my house, and put that particular mote of dust in the corner of the second bedroom, that would be much less absurdly attentive to the dust mote than saying that God created the Milky Way galaxy and the Earth. And the Milky Way is less still than a dust mote, by comparison to the universe.

These religious nuts have zero sense of scale, and a literally astronomically over-inflated sense of their own importance.
Where do you think I'm coming from as regards the OP?
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
25,723
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
An immortal entity, worshipped as a god and referred to variously as God, Lord, Yahweh, the Godhead, creates the universe and the Earth
That's already absurd, as it suggests an importance for the Earth that is massively out of proportion.

The Earth is barely noticeable as a fraction of the solar system, which as Arthur C Clarke observed, consists of the Sun, Jupiter, and assorted debris.

If I said that I built my house, and put that particular mote of dust in the corner of the second bedroom, that would be much less absurdly attentive to the dust mote than saying that God created the Milky Way galaxy and the Earth. And the Milky Way is less still than a dust mote, by comparison to the universe.

These religious nuts have zero sense of scale, and a literally astronomically over-inflated sense of their own importance.
Where do you think I'm coming from as regards the OP?
I have no opinion on that.

I am simply responding to what you wrote. Do you disagree with any of my response?
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,660
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
Stage 4
Hell and eternal torment become central features in main-stream Christian doctrine, and simultaneously, Satan graduates from subversive mischief-maker and tempter to becoming the embodiment of evil; the enemy of God, intent on inducing humans to offend him, thus condemning their souls to eternal torment in Hell, over which he presides.
Yeah it seems eternal torment became the church tradition rather than that originally being part of the Bible.
I'm not sure if serious Christians believe that Satan is ruling over hell....
 

Stephen T-B

Stephen T-B
Joined
Apr 9, 2002
Messages
81
Location
Yorkshire UK
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
An immortal entity, worshipped as a god and referred to variously as God, Lord, Yahweh, the Godhead, creates the universe and the Earth
That's already absurd, as it suggests an importance for the Earth that is massively out of proportion.

The Earth is barely noticeable as a fraction of the solar system, which as Arthur C Clarke observed, consists of the Sun, Jupiter, and assorted debris.

If I said that I built my house, and put that particular mote of dust in the corner of the second bedroom, that would be much less absurdly attentive to the dust mote than saying that God created the Milky Way galaxy and the Earth. And the Milky Way is less still than a dust mote, by comparison to the universe.

These religious nuts have zero sense of scale, and a literally astronomically over-inflated sense of their own importance.
Where do you think I'm coming from as regards the OP?
I have no opinion on that.

I am simply responding to what you wrote. Do you disagree with any of my response?
I don't disagree with it.
What I'd hoped for was a critique.
In the OP I outlined the steps taken in the development of a religious mythology which in turn underpins present-day doctrine.
Naturally I think I've got them right but would like to hear if I haven't; if I've over-simplified or entirely misunderstood/misinterpreted the process.
 

Stephen T-B

Stephen T-B
Joined
Apr 9, 2002
Messages
81
Location
Yorkshire UK
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Stage 4
Hell and eternal torment become central features in main-stream Christian doctrine, and simultaneously, Satan graduates from subversive mischief-maker and tempter to becoming the embodiment of evil; the enemy of God, intent on inducing humans to offend him, thus condemning their souls to eternal torment in Hell, over which he presides.
Yeah it seems eternal torment became the church tradition rather than that originally being part of the Bible.
I'm not sure if serious Christians believe that Satan is ruling over hell....
"I'm not sure if serious Christians believe that Satan is ruling over hell...." Is this a recent development, and how widely do you think it's held?
(I'm not sure what you mean by "serious" Christians).
 

steve_bank

Contributor
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
8,074
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
All mythology is the same basis.

For a well documented modern example look at Mormons and how ir got started.

Or how the original Dracula story based on folk stories and a real life bloody leader morphed over time into all the vampire variations.

With exceptions it is not deigned, it evolves. Scientology was designed by a second rate scifi writer. Church Of Satan and other counter Christian religions were crafted for profit.

The JFK White House image of a family man wih kids in the Oval Office was pure fabrication and bogus, yet people believed in the image and it fostered American hope during the Cold War. Women did their hair like Jackie.

I'd say there is something in how our brains are wired that creates a need, and myths of all kinds fill the need.

Starting in the 60s the modern myth of the lone rock guitarist against the world. A heroic image.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,660
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
33,869
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
I offer this summary as the basis for a conversation (sorry for its length)...
The Story.
Stage 1.
An immortal entity, worshipped as a god and referred to variously as God, Lord, Yahweh, the Godhead, creates the universe and the Earth and two fatally-flawed temporal beings (Adam and Eve, progenitors of all humanity) who are possessed by metaphysical souls which, on account of that inherent flaw, perish along with their hosts.

Stage 2
The god entity selects a subsequent being (Abraham) to be the founder of a nation (the Jews), whose souls will attain immortality provided their hosts observe a plethora of rules regulating diet, food preparation, clothing materials, beliefs, religious rituals (along with various kinds of sacrifice) and general behaviour.

Stage 3
The god entity generates a humanoid version of itself (Jesus) with the commission to enable the souls of all humankind, regardless of race, to attain immortality provided their hosts;
a) worship the god entity;
b) acknowledge the divinity of Jesus;
c) acknowledge the flaws in the flawed nature they inherited, plus other specific wrong-doings they may have committed,
and
d) treat one an other with respect.
Jesus is to achieve his commission by offering himself up as a blood sacrifice on behalf of humankind to appease the god entity which continues to be offended by the flaws in the flawed nature it gave Adam and Eve and which all their descendants inherited.

Stage 4
Hell and eternal torment become central features in main-stream Christian doctrine, and simultaneously, Satan graduates from subversive mischief-maker and tempter to becoming the embodiment of evil; the enemy of God, intent on inducing humans to offend him, thus condemning their souls to eternal torment in Hell, over which he presides.

(Stage 3 has a variation, in that some people acknowledge the divine commission given to Jesus but deny his divinity, and stage 4 has variations, among which is a belief that the dead will be resurrected on Judgement Day, their souls winning immortality or being finished off, permanently.)

Actually Stage One involves a spiteful god who doesn’t want competition and tells man the knowledge fruit would kill them. When said fruit doesn’t actually do that, he bans man and woman from the garden because he is an asshole. The whole flawed part isn’t much of a thing until after the Jesus cult remixes The Fall.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,660
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
....When said fruit doesn’t actually do that, he bans man and woman from the garden because he is an asshole.
Also Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
 

Politesse

Lux Aeterna
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
7,387
Location
Chochenyo Territory, US
Gender
any
Basic Beliefs
Jedi Wayseeker
"I'm not sure if serious Christians believe that Satan is ruling over hell...."
Is this a recent development, and how widely do you think it's held?
Well I'm unaware of any Bible verses that say Satan rules over hell....
(I'm not sure what you mean by "serious" Christians).
Christians who are familiar with the Bible.
Its from Book I, lines 242-270 of the Gospel of Milton:

"The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
What matter where, if I be still the same,
And what I should be, all but less than he
Whom thunder hath made greater? Here at least
We shall be free; the almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven."


You may protest that Milton is not canon, but what is more canonical really, a book some crusty old bishops liked in the 4th century, or a book that is widely read, liked, and vividly illustrated in all manner of media for three centuries.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,660
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
Well I'm unaware of any Bible verses that say Satan rules over hell....
Its from Book One, lines 242-270 of the Gospel of Milton:

"The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
What matter where, if I be still the same,
And what I should be, all but less than he
Whom thunder hath made greater? Here at least
We shall be free; the almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven."
Yeah.... though it isn't from the official Bible.... though there's this:
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever
Note I don't think there are Bible verses that say that humans will be tormented forever though it talks about the "smoke of their torment".
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
25,723
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
....When said fruit doesn’t actually do that, he bans man and woman from the garden because he is an asshole.
Also Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
It seems passing strange thst the one and only God of Abraham, appears to be a polytheist for much of the Old Testament.

Surely his complaint should be that they have become like "me" rather than "one of us".
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
33,869
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
....When said fruit doesn’t actually do that, he bans man and woman from the garden because he is an asshole.
Also Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Yeah, he is an asshole. He lies to man about the fruit of knowledge and the. kicks man and woman out because he doesn’t want equals among him.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,660
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
It seems passing strange thst the one and only God of Abraham, appears to be a polytheist for much of the Old Testament.

Surely his complaint should be that they have become like "me" rather than "one of us".
Christians would see that as evidence that God was a trinity all along....
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,660
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
....When said fruit doesn’t actually do that, he bans man and woman from the garden because he is an asshole.
Also Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
Yeah, he is an asshole. He lies to man about the fruit of knowledge and the. kicks man and woman out because he doesn’t want equals among him.
The traditional church view is that they still had an immortal soul.... causing them to live forever in hell.... I think being able to die is merciful....
 

Stephen T-B

Stephen T-B
Joined
Apr 9, 2002
Messages
81
Location
Yorkshire UK
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
....When said fruit doesn’t actually do that, he bans man and woman from the garden because he is an asshole.
Also Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
Yeah, he is an asshole. He lies to man about the fruit of knowledge and the. kicks man and woman out because he doesn’t want equals among him.
The traditional church view is that they still had an immortal soul.... causing them to live forever in hell.... I think being able to die is merciful....
"The traditional church view is that they still had an immortal soul.... causing them to live forever in hell.... I think being able to die is merciful..."

Gen 2:17 "..but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
The serpent tells them they won't, and they don't, which, on the face of it, makes God a liar.
Unless...god was referring to their souls, which makes sense of the Chosen People thing; the Chosen People being the descendants of Abraham with whom he makes a contract (the first Covenant?) according to which their souls obtain immortality provided they adhere to his rules.
(Odd, though, that he waits until Moses comes along before telling them what the rules are.}
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
33,869
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
....When said fruit doesn’t actually do that, he bans man and woman from the garden because he is an asshole.
Also Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
Yeah, he is an asshole. He lies to man about the fruit of knowledge and the. kicks man and woman out because he doesn’t want equals among him.
The traditional church view is that they still had an immortal soul.... causing them to live forever in hell.... I think being able to die is merciful....

Solo shot first.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
33,869
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
....When said fruit doesn’t actually do that, he bans man and woman from the garden because he is an asshole.
Also Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
Yeah, he is an asshole. He lies to man about the fruit of knowledge and the. kicks man and woman out because he doesn’t want equals among him.
The traditional church view is that they still had an immortal soul.... causing them to live forever in hell.... I think being able to die is merciful....
"The traditional church view is that they still had an immortal soul.... causing them to live forever in hell.... I think being able to die is merciful..."

Gen 2:17 "..but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
The serpent tells them they won't, and they don't, which, on the face of it, makes God a liar.
Not merely on the face of it, but what the actual story says. That a literal wise serpent told woman the truth. God was lying and the reason God lied was explained when God was lamenting if man and woman became like they were... it'd suck for God. So like an asshole, God kicks man and woman out of the Garden.
Unless...god was referring to their souls, which makes sense of the Chosen People thing; the Chosen People being the descendants of Abraham with whom he makes a contract (the first Covenant?) according to which their souls obtain immortality provided they adhere to his rules.
This isn't spoken of for the 400 to 600 years before the Xian remix of the story comes about. Han shot first, enough of the fan fiction of the story of The Fall.
(Odd, though, that he waits until Moses comes along before telling them what the rules are.}
Odd that when he creates man, he doesn't forego the foreskin in the creation process.
 

Stephen T-B

Stephen T-B
Joined
Apr 9, 2002
Messages
81
Location
Yorkshire UK
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
"Odd that when he creates man, he doesn't forego the foreskin in the creation process."
Yes...in a discussion I had with a fundie on a bible discussion web site (now defunct) god's loving consideration for mankind was illustrated by the circumcision requirement, insisting it was to do with hygiene.
I missed the opportunity to make that very point.
(Though in fact I think it was more of a badge, denoting the Chosen).
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
33,869
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
In God's wisdom, he creates the foreskin so that his people can cut it off to be able to tell them from the others... because God really sucks at keeping track of these things.
 
Top Bottom