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The Swedish #MeToo movement took an unexpected turn

DrZoidberg

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This article is in Swedish, but is the big news over here.

https://www.svt.se/kultur/debattoren-cissi-wallin-vad-fan-holl-jag-pa-med

The #MeToo movement in Sweden was among the most extreme in the world. It quickly became a witch hunt. Dozens of powerful men got kicked out of their jobs based on the flimsiest accusations.

One journalist, Cissi Wallin, made a name of herself accusing one of Sweden's most influential journalists of rape with a very iffy accusation. I won't bore you all with the many details, but her accusations got thrown out of court, and he afterwards took her to court for defamation and won. This is very very hard in Sweden. Nowhere near USA or the UK. It's a big deal. Cissi Wallin throughout all this was unrepentent. Until Yesterday.

Yesterday the leader of the Swedish #MeTook goes out in the press and admits wrongdoing. She admits she created an extreme witch hunt culture doing more damage than good. She admits that, while our legal system might have flaws, it's good the way it is.

Nobody saw that coming.

Anyhoo. It's big news in Sweden. And good news. Because #MeToo in Sweden went way too far. I'm Swedish but now lived in Denmark throughout #MeToo. So I had the advantage of being able to compare them. #MeToo in Denmark was awesome. It lead to a great public debate and a much needed conversation. It was tragic that it became so loony in Sweden.

I hope now the country is given a chance to heal it's #MeToo wounds. And I hope it leads to some much needed cultural self reflection and conversation about how the fuck we let it go so out of hand. #MeToo should have been a good thing.
 

fromderinside

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It takes more than one mia culpa to turn irrationality into mindfulness. From my persepective #Metoo is a flawed process since it emphasizes copying whenever something is perceived to anyone to be unfair. Touchy and feely are among emotive responses. Most always they are seen as more important than they are by those who experience them.

That's one's culture at fault. As such its not suited to being cured by political action unless those who lead attitude setting want to correct material symptoms through social means. If one wants to enjoy parties one bans knives as fashion so number of assaults at these parties drop to zero for instance.
 

Angry Floof

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Considering that women are and have been prey to violent men, among other things, for millennia, it's not a big deal if it went too far in Sweden. Often "too far" is what is needed to change anything. For eons, men have been saying, "Ok, yes, go ahead and criticize, but be nice about it." Fuck that. I'm not at all sorry that some powerful men got kicked out of power for their sexist comments or whatever thing you think is so mild and undeserving of them losing their jobs. I don't give a fuck about protecting powerful men. We should be open to whatever it takes to truly upend cultural acceptance of violence against women. There's more important things than some individual men feeling they have been treated unjustly by a women's movement they don't control.

There is no limit to how many girls and women must suffer constant disrespect throughout our lives, from sick, predatory comments made by grown men toward little girls to violent, horrendous brutality and murder, for men to even speak up about it, much less try to change anything. So fuck those guys. They should have given them a kick in the balls on the way out, too.

And the response to this will invariably be "Not fair! Don't expect us to be nice to you if you treat us badly." Again, we've heard that shit for eons. You're just well conditioned to repeat it any time you're uncomfortable with women fighting back.

If women ever do change culture around the world into something that respects women and is led by women by at least half if not more, it will have to come with some real pain on the part of men. You can choose to be uncomfortable now and get serious about helping to make that change or you can suffer whatever comes later. And it's very likely you'll win and we women will again be subdued and treated like chattel around the world. But it's also quite possible that you won't, and if you don't win, many of you (and us) will suffer greatly for it because you, Just. Won't. Help. Us. And you have the luxury and privilege and power to do nothing.

So yeah, I don't give a fuck about any man's discomfort due to women fighting back. False accusations are so rare as to be non-existent compared to the number of women harmed in some way every fucking day, every hour, every minute. It's a very small, tiny price to pay for humanity to become more humane.
 

Tigers!

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Considering that women are and have been prey to violent men, among other things, for millennia, it's not a big deal if it went too far in Sweden. Often "too far" is what is needed to change anything. For eons, men have been saying, "Ok, yes, go ahead and criticize, but be nice about it." Fuck that. I'm not at all sorry that some powerful men got kicked out of power for their sexist comments or whatever thing you think is so mild and undeserving of them losing their jobs. I don't give a fuck about protecting powerful men. We should be open to whatever it takes to truly upend cultural acceptance of violence against women. There's more important things than some individual men feeling they have been treated unjustly by a women's movement they don't control.
Yes innocent until proved guilty is an important thing.

There is no limit to how many girls and women must suffer constant disrespect throughout our lives, from sick, predatory comments made by grown men toward little girls to violent, horrendous brutality and murder, for men to even speak up about it, much less try to change anything. So fuck those guys. They should have given them a kick in the balls on the way out, too.

And the response to this will invariably be "Not fair! Don't expect us to be nice to you if you treat us badly." Again, we've heard that shit for eons. You're just well conditioned to repeat it any time you're uncomfortable with women fighting back.

If women ever do change culture around the world into something that respects women and is led by women by at least half if not more, it will have to come with some real pain on the part of men. You can choose to be uncomfortable now and get serious about helping to make that change or you can suffer whatever comes later. And it's very likely you'll win and we women will again be subdued and treated like chattel around the world. But it's also quite possible that you won't, and if you don't win, many of you (and us) will suffer greatly for it because you, Just. Won't. Help. Us. And you have the luxury and privilege and power to do nothing.

So yeah, I don't give a fuck about any man's discomfort due to women fighting back. False accusations are so rare as to be non-existent compared to the number of women harmed in some way every fucking day, every hour, every minute. It's a very small, tiny price to pay for humanity to become more humane.
I too, am not concerned if men who deserve to be be worse than discomforted are indeed so.
But if the innocent are hurt then humanity is not becoming more humane.
 

Angry Floof

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But if the innocent are hurt then humanity is not becoming more humane.

You mean innocent men. Because the girls and women who are harmed every minute of every day are not innocent, right?
 

skepticalbip

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But if the innocent are hurt then humanity is not becoming more humane.

You mean innocent men. Because the girls and women who are harmed every minute of every day are not innocent, right?

You seem to not be able to view humans as individuals but rather as members of some identity group. To condemn all men because there are some bad ones is as absurd as condemning all women because there are some bad ones. And yes, there are some bad humans in both sexes.
 

Angry Floof

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But if the innocent are hurt then humanity is not becoming more humane.

You mean innocent men. Because the girls and women who are harmed every minute of every day are not innocent, right?

You seem to not be able to view humans as individuals but rather as members of some identity group. To condemn all men because there are some bad ones is as absurd as condemning all women because there are some bad ones. And yes, there are some bad humans in both sexes.

You seem to have no fucking clue about what I'm talking about.

pink_gang.png
 

skepticalbip

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You seem to not be able to view humans as individuals but rather as members of some identity group. To condemn all men because there are some bad ones is as absurd as condemning all women because there are some bad ones. And yes, there are some bad humans in both sexes.

You seem to have no fucking clue about what I'm talking about.
And you seem to have no fucking clue that people are individuals not robots required to act as a collective fulfilling whatever stereotype you have assigned to their "identity group".
 

Angry Floof

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You seem to not be able to view humans as individuals but rather as members of some identity group. To condemn all men because there are some bad ones is as absurd as condemning all women because there are some bad ones. And yes, there are some bad humans in both sexes.

You seem to have no fucking clue about what I'm talking about.
And you seem to have no fucking clue that people are individuals not robots required to act as a collective fulfilling whatever stereotype you have assigned to their "identity group".

And you have no idea how or what I think. But I'm glad this topic is triggering you. The main reason the world is still so violent and disrespectful to women is because that reality causes most men very little discomfort, no more than can be rationalized away and forgotten. Those few who actively fight with us, like Patrick Stewart, do so because they have traumatic personal experience. In Patrick's case, he grew up witnessing his father abusing his mother, and he did not turn out to be an abuser himself, which is often the case. But most men, pffth. Sure, they agree society should not be accepting and apathetic about violence against women, but then out of sight, out of mind.

So this is good that you're outraged at my outrageous comments, so much that you bother to type out your outrage. There may be hope for you eventually.
 

skepticalbip

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And you seem to have no fucking clue that people are individuals not robots required to act as a collective fulfilling whatever stereotype you have assigned to their "identity group".

And you have no idea how or what I think. But I'm glad this topic is triggering you. The main reason the world is still so violent and disrespectful to women is because that reality causes most men very little discomfort, no more than can be rationalized away and forgotten. Those few who actively fight with us, like Patrick Stewart, do so because they have traumatic personal experience. In Patrick's case, he grew up witnessing his father abusing his mother, and he did not turn out to be an abuser himself, which is often the case. But most men, pffth. Sure, they agree society should not be accepting and apathetic about violence against women, but then out of sight, out of mind.

So this is good that you're outraged at my outrageous comments, so much that you bother to type out your outrage. There may be hope for you eventually.

It isn't your hatred of men that I find sad and disturbing, it is your lumping of humans into identity groups and your inability to see people as individuals. This is the kind of dehumanization that has given the planet some of the worse atrocities. The Albanians were slaughtered because they were seen as the "identity group", Albanians rather than as humans that happen to be in Albania. Nazis could, without thinking, kill Jews because they had been put in the "identity group", Jew rather than seen as humans who happen to be Jewish. The same story for the Native Americans who were seen as an "identity group" rather than humans. etc, etc.

Those who lump people into "identity groups" loose sight of those others' humanity. At that point they are all seen as whatever vile stereotype people want to assign to them. Such senseless hatred is a poison.
 

Angry Floof

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And you seem to have no fucking clue that people are individuals not robots required to act as a collective fulfilling whatever stereotype you have assigned to their "identity group".

And you have no idea how or what I think. But I'm glad this topic is triggering you. The main reason the world is still so violent and disrespectful to women is because that reality causes most men very little discomfort, no more than can be rationalized away and forgotten. Those few who actively fight with us, like Patrick Stewart, do so because they have traumatic personal experience. In Patrick's case, he grew up witnessing his father abusing his mother, and he did not turn out to be an abuser himself, which is often the case. But most men, pffth. Sure, they agree society should not be accepting and apathetic about violence against women, but then out of sight, out of mind.

So this is good that you're outraged at my outrageous comments, so much that you bother to type out your outrage. There may be hope for you eventually.

It isn't your hatred of men that I find sad and disturbing, it is your lumping of humans into identity groups and your inability to see people as individuals. This is the kind of dehumanization that has given the planet some of the worse atrocities. The Albanians were slaughtered because they were seen as the "identity group", Albanians rather than as humans that happen to be in Albania. Nazis could, without thinking, kill Jews because they had been put in the "identity group", Jew rather than seen as humans who happen to be Jewish. The same story for the Native Americans who were seen as an "identity group" rather than humans. etc, etc.

Those who lump people into "identity groups" loose sight of those others' humanity. At that point they are all seen as whatever vile stereotype people want to assign to them. Such senseless hatred is a poison.

Thanks for that demonstration. I absolutely do not hate men. I want men to be uncomfortable. I want them to feel challenged or insulted or awkward, and I want them to feel it relentlessly, at least as relentlessly as women and girls are harmed by men every minute of every day.

Call me "poison" or whatever insults you want to throw at me. I'm glad you're pissed and full of hatred for me. Stew in it, for all I care, and stew in your hateful cartoon straw man. This is a good thing. Your attacks on me are irrelevant, but your butthurt response to any criticism of men is relevant. Keep it up! Tell all your friends. It's the least you can do to keep attention on violence against women and girls.
 

skepticalbip

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It isn't your hatred of men that I find sad and disturbing, it is your lumping of humans into identity groups and your inability to see people as individuals. This is the kind of dehumanization that has given the planet some of the worse atrocities. The Albanians were slaughtered because they were seen as the "identity group", Albanians rather than as humans that happen to be in Albania. Nazis could, without thinking, kill Jews because they had been put in the "identity group", Jew rather than seen as humans who happen to be Jewish. The same story for the Native Americans who were seen as an "identity group" rather than humans. etc, etc.

Those who lump people into "identity groups" loose sight of those others' humanity. At that point they are all seen as whatever vile stereotype people want to assign to them. Such senseless hatred is a poison.

Thanks for that demonstration. I absolutely do not hate men. I want men to be uncomfortable. I want them to feel challenged or insulted or awkward, and I want them to feel it relentlessly, at least as relentlessly as women and girls are harmed by men every minute of every day.

Call me "poison" or whatever insults you want to throw at me. I'm glad you're pissed and full of hatred for me. Stew in it, for all I care, and stew in your hateful cartoon straw man. This is a good thing. Your attacks on me are irrelevant, but your butthurt response to any criticism of men is relevant. Keep it up! Tell all your friends. It's the least you can do to keep attention on violence against women and girls.
You seem to have a reading comprehension problem.
 

Angry Floof

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It isn't your hatred of men that I find sad and disturbing, it is your lumping of humans into identity groups and your inability to see people as individuals. This is the kind of dehumanization that has given the planet some of the worse atrocities. The Albanians were slaughtered because they were seen as the "identity group", Albanians rather than as humans that happen to be in Albania. Nazis could, without thinking, kill Jews because they had been put in the "identity group", Jew rather than seen as humans who happen to be Jewish. The same story for the Native Americans who were seen as an "identity group" rather than humans. etc, etc.

Those who lump people into "identity groups" loose sight of those others' humanity. At that point they are all seen as whatever vile stereotype people want to assign to them. Such senseless hatred is a poison.

Thanks for that demonstration. I absolutely do not hate men. I want men to be uncomfortable. I want them to feel challenged or insulted or awkward, and I want them to feel it relentlessly, at least as relentlessly as women and girls are harmed by men every minute of every day.

Call me "poison" or whatever insults you want to throw at me. I'm glad you're pissed and full of hatred for me. Stew in it, for all I care, and stew in your hateful cartoon straw man. This is a good thing. Your attacks on me are irrelevant, but your butthurt response to any criticism of men is relevant. Keep it up! Tell all your friends. It's the least you can do to keep attention on violence against women and girls.
You seem to have a reading comprehension problem.

No. I just don't give a shit about your protestations. :)
 

DrZoidberg

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Considering that women are and have been prey to violent men, among other things, for millennia, it's not a big deal if it went too far in Sweden. Often "too far" is what is needed to change anything. For eons, men have been saying, "Ok, yes, go ahead and criticize, but be nice about it." Fuck that. I'm not at all sorry that some powerful men got kicked out of power for their sexist comments or whatever thing you think is so mild and undeserving of them losing their jobs. I don't give a fuck about protecting powerful men. We should be open to whatever it takes to truly upend cultural acceptance of violence against women. There's more important things than some individual men feeling they have been treated unjustly by a women's movement they don't control.

There is no limit to how many girls and women must suffer constant disrespect throughout our lives, from sick, predatory comments made by grown men toward little girls to violent, horrendous brutality and murder, for men to even speak up about it, much less try to change anything. So fuck those guys. They should have given them a kick in the balls on the way out, too.

And the response to this will invariably be "Not fair! Don't expect us to be nice to you if you treat us badly." Again, we've heard that shit for eons. You're just well conditioned to repeat it any time you're uncomfortable with women fighting back.

If women ever do change culture around the world into something that respects women and is led by women by at least half if not more, it will have to come with some real pain on the part of men. You can choose to be uncomfortable now and get serious about helping to make that change or you can suffer whatever comes later. And it's very likely you'll win and we women will again be subdued and treated like chattel around the world. But it's also quite possible that you won't, and if you don't win, many of you (and us) will suffer greatly for it because you, Just. Won't. Help. Us. And you have the luxury and privilege and power to do nothing.

So yeah, I don't give a fuck about any man's discomfort due to women fighting back. False accusations are so rare as to be non-existent compared to the number of women harmed in some way every fucking day, every hour, every minute. It's a very small, tiny price to pay for humanity to become more humane.

The end justifies the means argument. That hasn't worked out so well historicaly. How about trying our best not to be evil any step of the way?
 

fromderinside

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So yeah, I don't give a fuck about any man's discomfort due to women fighting back. False accusations are so rare as to be non-existent compared to the number of women harmed in some way every fucking day, every hour, every minute. It's a very small, tiny price to pay for humanity to become more humane.

Nor do I Angry Floof. What is needed are enough women of note to grab a social 'we really like this' and find ways to make it unpopular for anyone to dare messing with it because they exhibit the undesirable attribute.

I find the current using courts and taking wealth a bit slow. We want to ridicule all the social scum.

Have the elites show and call out anyone who publicly accosts a girl or woman because he can a coward and criminal at every elite social gathering? Once the video is in the ether its there forever. You will get there fast.

I suggest something like videos be taken at all these beloved social functions and that the most salient verbal, physical, sexual or gender excess of any kind be broadly published highlighted and booed by others attending such gatherings for everyone to see and be lead to feel ashamed. You want use something that makes people who see it disgusted and desirous of making all social gatherings safe for girls and women. You want to achieve social rejection of manageable behaviors.

Just take the British society knife example and find an equivalent broadly approved damning process. Try it. You'll like it. If one loses privileges' from broad public disapproval of that behavior you will have a winner.
 

Angry Floof

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Considering that women are and have been prey to violent men, among other things, for millennia, it's not a big deal if it went too far in Sweden. Often "too far" is what is needed to change anything. For eons, men have been saying, "Ok, yes, go ahead and criticize, but be nice about it." Fuck that. I'm not at all sorry that some powerful men got kicked out of power for their sexist comments or whatever thing you think is so mild and undeserving of them losing their jobs. I don't give a fuck about protecting powerful men. We should be open to whatever it takes to truly upend cultural acceptance of violence against women. There's more important things than some individual men feeling they have been treated unjustly by a women's movement they don't control.

There is no limit to how many girls and women must suffer constant disrespect throughout our lives, from sick, predatory comments made by grown men toward little girls to violent, horrendous brutality and murder, for men to even speak up about it, much less try to change anything. So fuck those guys. They should have given them a kick in the balls on the way out, too.

And the response to this will invariably be "Not fair! Don't expect us to be nice to you if you treat us badly." Again, we've heard that shit for eons. You're just well conditioned to repeat it any time you're uncomfortable with women fighting back.

If women ever do change culture around the world into something that respects women and is led by women by at least half if not more, it will have to come with some real pain on the part of men. You can choose to be uncomfortable now and get serious about helping to make that change or you can suffer whatever comes later. And it's very likely you'll win and we women will again be subdued and treated like chattel around the world. But it's also quite possible that you won't, and if you don't win, many of you (and us) will suffer greatly for it because you, Just. Won't. Help. Us. And you have the luxury and privilege and power to do nothing.

So yeah, I don't give a fuck about any man's discomfort due to women fighting back. False accusations are so rare as to be non-existent compared to the number of women harmed in some way every fucking day, every hour, every minute. It's a very small, tiny price to pay for humanity to become more humane.

The end justifies the means argument. That hasn't worked out so well historicaly. How about trying our best not to be evil any step of the way?

That little fantasy has nothing to do with what's going on here. Try harder. Women and girls are harmed every minute of every day.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Thanks for that demonstration. I absolutely do not hate men. I want men to be uncomfortable. I want them to feel challenged or insulted or awkward, and I want them to feel it relentlessly, at least as relentlessly as women and girls are harmed by men every minute of every day.

Call me "poison" or whatever insults you want to throw at me. I'm glad you're pissed and full of hatred for me. Stew in it, for all I care, and stew in your hateful cartoon straw man. This is a good thing. Your attacks on me are irrelevant, but your butthurt response to any criticism of men is relevant. Keep it up! Tell all your friends. It's the least you can do to keep attention on violence against women and girls.

So you want to inflict harm on innocents because others inflicted harm on your in-group?
 

Angry Floof

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Thanks for that demonstration. I absolutely do not hate men. I want men to be uncomfortable. I want them to feel challenged or insulted or awkward, and I want them to feel it relentlessly, at least as relentlessly as women and girls are harmed by men every minute of every day.

Call me "poison" or whatever insults you want to throw at me. I'm glad you're pissed and full of hatred for me. Stew in it, for all I care, and stew in your hateful cartoon straw man. This is a good thing. Your attacks on me are irrelevant, but your butthurt response to any criticism of men is relevant. Keep it up! Tell all your friends. It's the least you can do to keep attention on violence against women and girls.

So you want to inflict harm on innocents because others inflicted harm on your in-group?

I'm not inflicting anything. In fact, no one is "inflicting" anything on men. We're calling you out for your utter apathy toward women and girls.
 

Angry Floof

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But if the innocent are hurt then humanity is not becoming more humane.

You mean innocent men. Because the girls and women who are harmed every minute of every day are not innocent, right?

So harm to your in-group matters, but harm to your out-group doesn't?

No one's harming my out-group. No one is harming men by calling you out for having no empathy or concern or respect for half of the human race. It's not about you personally, but if you personally react to any mention of men being challenged to notice how their privilege protects their apathy as "harm" or "inflicting" something on you, then yes, you are a part of that. But it's not about you personally. Your feelings and opinions are irrelevant to the fact that men as a group do not give a flying shit that they, as a group, prey on women and girls with degradation, disrespect, brutalization, and murder.

Let me try to put this another way. #Notallmen, but those men who do degrade, harm, kill women and girls are essentially free to do so because men in general look the other way. It's not personal. Individual rapists and abusers are often held accountable. But they also have a large space to work within because they know how the men around them operate. And that's not even mentioning the cops that do nothing when a woman is threatened or the judges that think violent rapists shouldn't go to jail because their future must be protected and/or "she should have kept her legs closed," as if she had a choice.

Those abusers are well aware of what they can say and do in your vicinity. In an environment were you exist, they know damn well how far they can go with the disrespect and degradation, and they take your nervous laughter (or your cry-laughing smilies in response to rape videos... harmless, right?) as your approval. They take those judges' care and concern for rapists and disregard for rape victims as approval. They take those cops' unwillingness to keep women safe as approval.

The best, the very best I can say about you is that you don't personally cause harm, but you just don't care that half the human race is brutalized every day by the other half.

When you're out picketing or marching or starting threads in this pasty white sausage fest TFT community on what men can do to make the world a safer place for women and kids, then maybe we can revisit the "yOuRe nOt bEiNg NiCe tO uS" strawman.

Cases of false accusation are so miniscule as to be non-existent in the face of the violence you ignore. Call them collateral damage if you want. I call them irrelevant. No one condones false accusations except the people who make them. No one says "false accusations are ok because violence against women." We're saying false accusations are irrelevant.
 

Lion IRC

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The cautionary tale of false, vague and malicious accusations hasn't been all bad.

These have raised the level of consciousness of fair-minded people about the need to be seen to be scrupulously puritanical when it comes to the 'appropriateness' of one's behaviour...or rather, the appearance of appropriateness.

If putting yourself above suspicion helps to build a culture where 'inappropriate' behaviour disappears, that's a good thing.

e485a191-994d-4460-9b15-7ddb63c450c1_1.png
 

Angry Floof

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Lion, how does that help protect the women and children who are abused by men who don't give a shit about consent? Abusers and rapists and just all around creeps are happy living in a world where women are assaulted or discriminated against or just degraded and disrespected as a normative social environment that, apparently, is acceptable to you.

Women and children are abused and disregarded and murdered every minute of every day by men. Does this sit well with you?

False accusations are irrelevant to this. They are rare and do not pose a society wide threat to men. The false accusations crap is a cheap copout for men who feel personally attacked by mentioning that women and children are abused by men every minute of every day.

I would suggest you put aside your self (space intended) and think about how you might contribute to making those stats disappear. As a fellow human being, I ask you to humble yourself and offer support and not opinion.

What do you think men can do to make the world a safer place for women and children?

What questions could you ask the women around you to give you their perspective? How might you ask for their thoughts on how you can help make the world safer for them?

Maybe also ask them if they feel safe telling you about abuses they have experienced, with you inserting NO opinion or advice?
 

Lion IRC

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...well I did say it's about raising the level of consciousness. I'm not so naive as to think that's gonna be easy or happen overnight.

Repeating for emphasis.
"build a culture where 'inappropriate' behaviour disappears"
 

Lion IRC

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The thing that confuses me, is the paradox of equality resulting in alpha male men treating the gentler sex women exactly like they treat men.

class-bar-fight.jpg
 

Angry Floof

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...well I did say it's about raising the level of consciousness. I'm not so naive as to think that's gonna be easy or happen overnight.

Repeating for emphasis.
"build a culture where 'inappropriate' behaviour disappears"
Another cheap copout diversion. No one thinks it will be easy or happen overnight. Give me one fucking example of someone saying we expect a humanity-wide sea change overnight.

I don't care about your opinions of inappropriate behavior disappearing. I care about whether you can set your self and opinions aside and just humble yourself in the face of women and children being harmed and killed every minute of every day.

The thing that confuses me, is the paradox of equality resulting in alpha male men treating the gentler sex women exactly like they treat men.

There's no paradox, just a man who is trying to skirt the actual issue here with strawmen and stupid mansplaining bullshit. Nobody wants to be exactly like men. We want to stop being brutalized and preyed on by them.

How about just treating us like human beings? How about treating your fellow men like beings who are capable of caring about other human beings, especially the most vulnerable among us?

No one's impressed by aggressive posturing. Take that "alpha male" shit and shove it. We're a tribe of seven billion now, like it or not, chest-puffing competition with other alpha dick wavers around the world or not. Try thinking and self reflection instead of inserting your opinions into any given situation, instead of urge to dominate. You're a grownup.

Empathy and cooperation are our survival strategy now. Tribalism does not serve humanity at all, and may well needlessly kill us off. Take your monkey man ideas and leave them back with your other childish things that you left behind and humble yourself in the face of women and children being abused and killed by men every minute of every day. Put your self (space intended) aside and make it clear to your fellow men that sexism and racism or any disrespect of others will not be tolerated in your presence. Why would you not do this?

Women and children are abused and killed by men every minute of every day. Does this sit well with you?

I'm not kidding about that. That is literally all you need to do - humble yourself by putting your opinions about anything completely aside and show support and respect for women and children. If you spend a tenth of the time you spend on forming opinions on focusing on how you can protect women and children and signal to other men that the animal brain aggression is unacceptable, and that racism and misogyny are unacceptable, the world could possibly become a safe, grownup, human place in our lifetime. Get a fucking tattoo of this.
 

Lion IRC

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...I don't care about your opinions of inappropriate behavior disappearing.


That's what I thought. But I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. That maybe you weren't locked into a presuppositional fixed mindset.

#fundy_prejudice. #closed_minded

Count the number of disingenuous question marks ??? there are in a post from someone who isn't even interested in hearing your answer to those questions.

That's bad faith dialogue.
 

Angry Floof

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...I don't care about your opinions of inappropriate behavior disappearing.


That's what I thought.
Cherry picking to escape the actual discussion. Shame on you.

That's bad faith dialogue.

Bad faith dialogue is not having the intellectual honesty to address anything I've actually said. But I see I've triggered some typical reactions that help you to avoid the actual discussion here. You can even hate me if you want. Stew in it for all I care. But keep reacting because you and your fellow men need to be challenged on so many things. Keep topping the thread, too. :)

Once again, your opinions and personal feelings are irrelevant to the fact that women and children are abused and killed by men every minute of every day.

Whatever you think about me or the mean things I say to you or my tone that you don't like is irrelevant to the actual discussion here, but, as I said before, it's good that you keep reacting. :)
 

Angry Floof

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I'll ask the questions again in case anyone who is mature and open hearted and capable of self reflection might be reading. :)

Women and children are abused and killed by men every minute of every day. Does this sit well with you?

What do you think men can do to make the world a safer place for women and children?

What questions could you ask the women around you to give you their perspective? How might you ask for their thoughts on how you can help make the world safer for them?

Maybe also ask them if they feel safe telling you about abuses they have experienced?

Can you do all this without inserting your opinion or advice?
 

Lion IRC

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I'll ask the questions again in case anyone who is mature and open hearted and capable of self reflection might be reading. :)

Women and children are abused and killed by men every minute of every day. Does this sit well with you?


Can you answer this without stating an opinion? Nope.
You're ASKING FOR an opinion.

What do you think men can do to make the world a safer place for women and children?

Can you answer this without stating an opinion? Nope.
You're ASKING FOR an opinion.

What questions could you ask the women around you to give you their perspective?

Well, in my opinion we could...OH WAIT! I'm not allowed to 'insert' an opinion.

How might you ask for their thoughts on how you can help make the world safer for them?

Can you answer this without stating an opinion? Nope.
You're ASKING FOR an opinion.


Maybe also ask them if they feel safe telling you about abuses they have experienced?


Why would they simultaneously go to the trouble of telling me something and NOT care what I thought about the matter? They can buy a ventriloquist dummy if they want to talk to themself.
 

Angry Floof

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I'm not asking for me...

The questions are for YOU. I'm not asking for answers posted here. You can if you want to. That would be awesome.

But the reason I post the questions is not so *I* will get answers posted. The questions are for you.

Also, ideas and opinions are not necessarily the same thing. Creative problem solving is needed, not opinion about what women or any woman should think or do or say, not opinion on social issues other than the issue of women and children being abused and harmed and killed by men every minute of every day.
 

thebeave

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I'll ask the questions again in case anyone who is mature and open hearted and capable of self reflection might be reading. :)

Women and children are abused and killed by men every minute of every day. Does this sit well with you?

What do you think men can do to make the world a safer place for women and children?

What questions could you ask the women around you to give you their perspective? How might you ask for their thoughts on how you can help make the world safer for them?

Maybe also ask them if they feel safe telling you about abuses they have experienced?

Can you do all this without inserting your opinion or advice?

Well, for children anyway, we could remove them from their mothers:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/254893/child-abuse-in-the-us-by-perpetrator-relationship/
 

skepticalbip

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I'll ask the questions again in case anyone who is mature and open hearted and capable of self reflection might be reading. :)

Women and children are abused and killed by men every minute of every day. Does this sit well with you?
Children and other people are killed and abused by women every day too. No human (male or female) killing or abusing others sits well with me. How does women abusing and killing their children, other women, and men sit with you? Or do you think the women that are in prison for child abuse and/or murder should be forgiven and released since you seem to be unaware that there are some quite vicious women?
What do you think men can do to make the world a safer place for women and children?
Both men and women can continue to do what they have been doing, arresting and imprisoning men and women who are the threat to safety.
 

Loren Pechtel

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So harm to your in-group matters, but harm to your out-group doesn't?

No one's harming my out-group. No one is harming men by calling you out for having no empathy or concern or respect for half of the human race. It's not about you personally, but if you personally react to any mention of men being challenged to notice how their privilege protects their apathy as "harm" or "inflicting" something on you, then yes, you are a part of that. But it's not about you personally. Your feelings and opinions are irrelevant to the fact that men as a group do not give a flying shit that they, as a group, prey on women and girls with degradation, disrespect, brutalization, and murder.

The problem is you are assuming that things went down as the woman said, your approach has no room mistaken or false allegations. You don't care about this harm and dismiss it's very existence because it falls on your out-group.

Cases of false accusation are so miniscule as to be non-existent in the face of the violence you ignore. Call them collateral damage if you want. I call them irrelevant. No one condones false accusations except the people who make them. No one says "false accusations are ok because violence against women." We're saying false accusations are irrelevant.

Dismissing them as not happening is in a sense condoning them. The lowest reasonable estimate we have is 8%.
 

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Considering that women are and have been prey to violent men, among other things, for millennia, it's not a big deal if it went too far in Sweden. Often "too far" is what is needed to change anything. For eons, men have been saying, "Ok, yes, go ahead and criticize, but be nice about it." Fuck that. I'm not at all sorry that some powerful men got kicked out of power for their sexist comments or whatever thing you think is so mild and undeserving of them losing their jobs. I don't give a fuck about protecting powerful men. We should be open to whatever it takes to truly upend cultural acceptance of violence against women. There's more important things than some individual men feeling they have been treated unjustly by a women's movement they don't control.

There is no limit to how many girls and women must suffer constant disrespect throughout our lives, from sick, predatory comments made by grown men toward little girls to violent, horrendous brutality and murder, for men to even speak up about it, much less try to change anything. So fuck those guys. They should have given them a kick in the balls on the way out, too.

And the response to this will invariably be "Not fair! Don't expect us to be nice to you if you treat us badly." Again, we've heard that shit for eons. You're just well conditioned to repeat it any time you're uncomfortable with women fighting back.

If women ever do change culture around the world into something that respects women and is led by women by at least half if not more, it will have to come with some real pain on the part of men. You can choose to be uncomfortable now and get serious about helping to make that change or you can suffer whatever comes later. And it's very likely you'll win and we women will again be subdued and treated like chattel around the world. But it's also quite possible that you won't, and if you don't win, many of you (and us) will suffer greatly for it because you, Just. Won't. Help. Us. And you have the luxury and privilege and power to do nothing.

So yeah, I don't give a fuck about any man's discomfort due to women fighting back. False accusations are so rare as to be non-existent compared to the number of women harmed in some way every fucking day, every hour, every minute. It's a very small, tiny price to pay for humanity to become more humane.

The end justifies the means argument. That hasn't worked out so well historicaly. How about trying our best not to be evil any step of the way?

My observation:

Most men are not rapists. But most men are pretty much OK with the status quo which includes all sorts of threats of violence, discomfort, embarrassment, humiliation, fear, degradation, insults, over familiarity (and over protectiveness which can create its own issues) and more that women and girls are simply expected to put up with so that men are not made to feel uncomfortable. Mostly, it's easy for men and boys to ignore or minimize. After all, everyone wants to think they are a good person and that their friends, fathers, brothers, etc. are good people. Maybe cross the line a little bit but no one takes that stuff seriously....except that indeed, it is harmful to girls and women. Also to boys and men.

When I was a college student, I worked for a crisis hot line as a volunteer. There was a strong effort to have a male staffer and a female staffer at all times, because some callers only opened up to one or the other. We had the full gamut of calls, and a certain small percentage of them were guys who wanted to talk to some female voice while he masturbated. There were a couple of regular masturbators who regularly called and would hang up if a male answered, then do their thing when they called again and it was a female staffer who answered. There was a tremendous difference of opinion among the staffers about whether female staffers should be required to put up with some guy jerking off, perhaps saying some distressing things (some guys had rather violent fantasies). The rule was: we didn't hang up on callers, no matter what. The female staff members tried very hard to convince the male staff members that this sort of call was sometimes very distressing and that wasn't why they were volunteering. The dominant male attitude was that it was just talk and that the women shouldn't mind.

Then a woman, began to make similar types of calls to male staffers. The men were, like the women when they were expected to put up with a man masturbating, quite distressed, embarrassed, grossed out, felt unclean, and as though they should not have to put up with such calls. I always strongly suspected another female staffer or someone so recruited was responsible for those handful of female jerk off calls. They did have the effect of convincing the male staffers that perhaps there should not be such a hard line about always being responsive to any caller.

Sometimes, the only way to convince someone that change is necessary is to make them uncomfortable. It would be better if things like empathy, a sense of justice, a shared vision of equality were enough or even present but apparently they are not enough for too many people.
 

Toni

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I'll ask the questions again in case anyone who is mature and open hearted and capable of self reflection might be reading. :)

Women and children are abused and killed by men every minute of every day. Does this sit well with you?

What do you think men can do to make the world a safer place for women and children?

What questions could you ask the women around you to give you their perspective? How might you ask for their thoughts on how you can help make the world safer for them?

Maybe also ask them if they feel safe telling you about abuses they have experienced?

Can you do all this without inserting your opinion or advice?

Well, for children anyway, we could remove them from their mothers:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/254893/child-abuse-in-the-us-by-perpetrator-relationship/

But then men would be expected to step up and take care of children, at the expense of their work life/career/education/night out at the bars/sportsgame/sex/sleep/life. I don't see how that would work out.

The reason that women are more likely to be responsible for abuse towards a young child is because children are much, much more likely to be in the care of women than men. Whether they are employed or not, women provide significantly more care to children compared with men, whether the men are employed or not. The gap has narrowed over the past 20 years but it is still significant.
 

Angry Floof

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The problem is you are assuming that things went down as the woman said, your approach has no room mistaken or false allegations. You don't care about this harm and dismiss it's very existence because it falls on your out-group.
It is irrelevant to the problem of half the human race being preyed upon by the other half, and those among that other half that do not prey on or abuse or disrespect women are complicit by their silence.

Cases of false accusation are so miniscule as to be non-existent in the face of the violence you ignore. Call them collateral damage if you want. I call them irrelevant. No one condones false accusations except the people who make them. No one says "false accusations are ok because violence against women." We're saying false accusations are irrelevant.

Dismissing them as not happening is in a sense condoning them. The lowest reasonable estimate we have is 8%.

It's not dismissing them as not happening. It's calling them irrelevant to the problem of half the human race being preyed upon by the other half, and that is the case because so few of you care enough to upset the status quo or risk someone (other men, mainly) not liking you going out on a limb to help change the world to one that is safe for women.

If you're so concerned about those cases of false accusation, then go worry about them. But don't bring them into a thread about #metoo. They are irrelevant to how the world of men treats women.
 

Angry Floof

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I'll ask the questions again in case anyone who is mature and open hearted and capable of self reflection might be reading. :)

Women and children are abused and killed by men every minute of every day. Does this sit well with you?

What do you think men can do to make the world a safer place for women and children?

What questions could you ask the women around you to give you their perspective? How might you ask for their thoughts on how you can help make the world safer for them?

Maybe also ask them if they feel safe telling you about abuses they have experienced?

Can you do all this without inserting your opinion or advice?

Well, for children anyway, we could remove them from their mothers:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/254893/child-abuse-in-the-us-by-perpetrator-relationship/

But then men would be expected to step up and take care of children, at the expense of their work life/career/education/night out at the bars/sportsgame/sex/sleep/life. I don't see how that would work out.

The reason that women are more likely to be responsible for abuse towards a young child is because children are much, much more likely to be in the care of women than men. Whether they are employed or not, women provide significantly more care to children compared with men, whether the men are employed or not. The gap has narrowed over the past 20 years but it is still significant.

Imagine if more men cared for their children full time than women, with all the variances in support that women receive from their society and communities, and more men in daycares then women, etc. Just imagine.

Apologies to the wonderful, caring dads and male daycare workers, but if that were how the world looked, at least in the West it would be catastrophic for children.
 

Toni

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But then men would be expected to step up and take care of children, at the expense of their work life/career/education/night out at the bars/sportsgame/sex/sleep/life. I don't see how that would work out.

The reason that women are more likely to be responsible for abuse towards a young child is because children are much, much more likely to be in the care of women than men. Whether they are employed or not, women provide significantly more care to children compared with men, whether the men are employed or not. The gap has narrowed over the past 20 years but it is still significant.

Imagine if more men cared for their children full time than women, with all the variances in support that women receive from their society and communities, and more men in daycares then women, etc. Just imagine.

Apologies to the wonderful, caring dads and male daycare workers, but if that were how the world looked, at least in the West it would be catastrophic for children.

Given the level and severity of domestic violence perpetuated by men in women compared with women’s violence towards men, I think you have a point. I was fortunate to have a husband/father to my children who truly loves young children and had tremendous patience with all aspects of caring for them. Most of the other fathers in our group and most of the fathers of my friends’ children were far less involved. When my daughter babysat, she noted that the mothers were very much the ones who were ‘in charge’ of all things child related including discipline, which in our social group was primarily setting limits and schedules.
 

Angry Floof

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But then men would be expected to step up and take care of children, at the expense of their work life/career/education/night out at the bars/sportsgame/sex/sleep/life. I don't see how that would work out.

The reason that women are more likely to be responsible for abuse towards a young child is because children are much, much more likely to be in the care of women than men. Whether they are employed or not, women provide significantly more care to children compared with men, whether the men are employed or not. The gap has narrowed over the past 20 years but it is still significant.

Imagine if more men cared for their children full time than women, with all the variances in support that women receive from their society and communities, and more men in daycares then women, etc. Just imagine.

Apologies to the wonderful, caring dads and male daycare workers, but if that were how the world looked, at least in the West it would be catastrophic for children.

Given the level and severity of domestic violence perpetuated by men in women compared with women’s violence towards men, I think you have a point. I was fortunate to have a husband/father to my children who truly loves young children and had tremendous patience with all aspects of caring for them. Most of the other fathers in our group and most of the fathers of my friends’ children were far less involved. When my daughter babysat, she noted that the mothers were very much the ones who were ‘in charge’ of all things child related including discipline, which in our social group was primarily setting limits and schedules.

I also want to add to my previous. As you said, it's mostly women who take on the care and responsibility of children, often with little or no support or the temperament to do well under pressure. Under right wing policies, more inexperienced and unsupported women would have babies, they would get less support from their environment, the fears and pressures of a misogynist right wing community or society would add a ton of unnecessary stress and degradation on top of trying to feed their kids that they may not have even wanted and no one holds men accountable for where they put their sperm or how they treat the person they put it in, they may or may not get a decent education given that public schools have been under attack by right wing nut jobbery for decades and college level education is expensive, and get less access to mental health support.

Even without these things getting worse and even when they get better, you're going to have a significant number of child abuse cases where the abuser is the mother or other female carer.

And we all should work harder to support policies that reflect our concern for both mothers and children and make sure their needs are met. That alone would reduce the number of cases of mothers abusing their children.

But here's the thing: It's very rare for women to be predators. It's rare for women to be molesters or serial child murderers.

It's also very rare to find a woman who would say nothing if her friends were bragging about their abuses or joking about raping or killing kids. It's very rare that you find a woman posting a cry-laughing smiley when shown a video of a rape. Etc., etc.

The pathetic attempts to claim "women are just as bad" are getting tiresome. This is a freethought community, yet it's mainly just us few women who challenge such bullshit here. (But much love to those few guys who do take people to task for shit like that. :love:)
 

Toni

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Given the level and severity of domestic violence perpetuated by men in women compared with women’s violence towards men, I think you have a point. I was fortunate to have a husband/father to my children who truly loves young children and had tremendous patience with all aspects of caring for them. Most of the other fathers in our group and most of the fathers of my friends’ children were far less involved. When my daughter babysat, she noted that the mothers were very much the ones who were ‘in charge’ of all things child related including discipline, which in our social group was primarily setting limits and schedules.

I also want to add to my previous. As you said, it's mostly women who take on the care and responsibility of children, often with little or no support or the temperament to do well under pressure. Under right wing policies, more inexperienced and unsupported women would have babies, they would get less support from their environment, the fears and pressures of a misogynist right wing community or society would add a ton of unnecessary stress and degradation on top of trying to feed their kids that they may not have even wanted and no one holds men accountable for where they put their sperm or how they treat the person they put it in, they may or may not get a decent education given that public schools have been under attack by right wing nut jobbery for decades and college level education is expensive, and get less access to mental health support.

Even without these things getting worse and even when they get better, you're going to have a significant number of child abuse cases where the abuser is the mother or other female carer.

And we all should work harder to support policies that reflect our concern for both mothers and children and make sure their needs are met. That alone would reduce the number of cases of mothers abusing their children.

But here's the thing: It's very rare for women to be predators. It's rare for women to be molesters or serial child murderers.

It's also very rare to find a woman who would say nothing if her friends were bragging about their abuses or joking about raping or killing kids. It's very rare that you find a woman posting a cry-laughing smiley when shown a video of a rape. Etc., etc.

The pathetic attempts to claim "women are just as bad" are getting tiresome. This is a freethought community, yet it's mainly just us few women who challenge such bullshit here. (But much love to those few guys who do take people to task for shit like that. :love:)

Exactly. The last paragraph cannot be stated often enough.
 

DrZoidberg

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The cautionary tale of false, vague and malicious accusations hasn't been all bad.

These have raised the level of consciousness of fair-minded people about the need to be seen to be scrupulously puritanical when it comes to the 'appropriateness' of one's behaviour...or rather, the appearance of appropriateness.

If putting yourself above suspicion helps to build a culture where 'inappropriate' behaviour disappears, that's a good thing.

View attachment 33929

It's a pipe dream. I was one of the ones leading the consent workshops at a large, and sex positive, festival.

The above form leads to something we labelled as "weaponized consent".

The creep asks consent for something vague and then is free to rape.

Sociopaths are masters at gaming whatever system is in place. You only need a couple to ruin the fun for everyone at a festival with thousands of guests. Creating "safe spaces" is dangerous. Safe spaces make people (ie women) naive, take stupid risks and it attracts sociopaths like flies to honey. In my experience safe spaces tend to punish just those men who try their best in being respectful and good, while making it easier for sociopaths to do what they usually do.

Wise from experience I think it's better to teach women that men are inherently dangerous and that rape isn't a problem that will ever go away. I think we need to accept that there's fundamental differences in female and male physiology and psychology, and this create differences in the basic realities of trying to get laid with people you are attracted to.

But I'm not saying that teaching women this means that we let men do whatever. I'm also for strict social control of men.

What I've seen works best is loads of rules men need to follow, that only apply to men. The asking of consent, being one of them. Any man who violates any of the rules is forcibly ejected. And to police this stringently.

But the rules need to be clear and unambiguous. Festivals have the added benefit that whatever hanky panky is happening there's almost always witnesses. Women who make reports and accusations are (not always but) often quite inaccurate. Once a woman feels like a victim of sexual assault she will often warp important (and verifiable) details making what was ambiguous into something black and white. This creates doubt about the accusation. Rapey sociopathic men know this and will use it to their advantage to get out of trouble.

So, since both parties when an accusation has been made are unreliable we need to accept that rape and sexual assaults are hard or impossible to police, and we need to shape our rules around that. We just have to accept some vagaries and unfairness.

But there is one metric that seems to be pretty rock solid. Number of accusations. If the same guy keeps getting reported by women then he's most likely a rapey sociopath and should be blocked from entry.

The above is based on my experiences trying to police sexual assault at a large festival.
 

Loren Pechtel

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But then men would be expected to step up and take care of children, at the expense of their work life/career/education/night out at the bars/sportsgame/sex/sleep/life. I don't see how that would work out.

The reason that women are more likely to be responsible for abuse towards a young child is because children are much, much more likely to be in the care of women than men. Whether they are employed or not, women provide significantly more care to children compared with men, whether the men are employed or not. The gap has narrowed over the past 20 years but it is still significant.

Imagine if more men cared for their children full time than women, with all the variances in support that women receive from their society and communities, and more men in daycares then women, etc. Just imagine.

Apologies to the wonderful, caring dads and male daycare workers, but if that were how the world looked, at least in the West it would be catastrophic for children.

Given the level and severity of domestic violence perpetuated by men in women compared with women’s violence towards men, I think you have a point. I was fortunate to have a husband/father to my children who truly loves young children and had tremendous patience with all aspects of caring for them. Most of the other fathers in our group and most of the fathers of my friends’ children were far less involved. When my daughter babysat, she noted that the mothers were very much the ones who were ‘in charge’ of all things child related including discipline, which in our social group was primarily setting limits and schedules.

Domestic violence is about equally split.

It's just male on female tends to inflict more harm than female on male.
 

DrZoidberg

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Given the level and severity of domestic violence perpetuated by men in women compared with women’s violence towards men, I think you have a point. I was fortunate to have a husband/father to my children who truly loves young children and had tremendous patience with all aspects of caring for them. Most of the other fathers in our group and most of the fathers of my friends’ children were far less involved. When my daughter babysat, she noted that the mothers were very much the ones who were ‘in charge’ of all things child related including discipline, which in our social group was primarily setting limits and schedules.

Domestic violence is about equally split.

It's just male on female tends to inflict more harm than female on male.

Humanities behaviour is the result of an evolutionary arms race. I find it hard to believe that women are any less prone to violence than men. I think the difference comes down to choice of weapons. Since women are physically weaker they will more often resort to psychological violence.

Exhibit A is how common physical violence is in lesbian relationships.
 

Angry Floof

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Given the level and severity of domestic violence perpetuated by men in women compared with women’s violence towards men, I think you have a point. I was fortunate to have a husband/father to my children who truly loves young children and had tremendous patience with all aspects of caring for them. Most of the other fathers in our group and most of the fathers of my friends’ children were far less involved. When my daughter babysat, she noted that the mothers were very much the ones who were ‘in charge’ of all things child related including discipline, which in our social group was primarily setting limits and schedules.

Domestic violence is about equally split.

It's just male on female tends to inflict more harm than female on male.

Humanities behaviour is the result of an evolutionary arms race. I find it hard to believe that women are any less prone to violence than men. I think the difference comes down to choice of weapons. Since women are physically weaker they will more often resort to psychological violence.

Exhibit A is how common physical violence is in lesbian relationships.

And yet, here we are, a lot less prone to violence than men.

If men spent half as much time thinking about how they can help and protect women from their fellow predators as they do about making excuses and looking for ways out, we'd have very little violence against women.

Instead, the vast majority of you get defensive and try to say there's no problem or that wOmEm R jUsT aS bAd or some other fantasy.

"They do it too, so our deeply ingrained cruelty can be ignored." The dogmatically religious also love to say, "Well, these other institutions also molest kids, so we are off the hook." Yeah, that's way better than taking responsibility and protecting children, isn't it?

This disregard of women runs deep and wide in Western culture, and others. People who regard us as less than and believe they are our authority figures who should be telling us what to think and do, even if not outright abusing and murdering us, are complicit.

Why is self reflection, soul searching, admitting wrong, humbling yourself, shutting up and respecting other human beings so hard for men when it comes to women?

Why is "Stop telling us what to do and think and listen for a god damn change" such an alien concept for so many of you?

If this doesn't apply to you, then yo have no reason to get defensive and butthurt and start telling us once again what to think and do.

You don't lose anything by shutting up and respecting women and demanding that other men do so as well without regard to anything any woman is saying or doing - it's not conditional.

I understand how some stunted, backward, toxic men can't fathom shutting up and respecting women and believe we need to be beaten and brutalized for even saying so, but I believe that those mongrels are few, but I also believe the only reason they exist is because the rest of you don't say or do anything about it except consider it not your problem and continue laughing at the rape jokes.

You can do better. I would think you'd want to.
 

DrZoidberg

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Humanities behaviour is the result of an evolutionary arms race. I find it hard to believe that women are any less prone to violence than men. I think the difference comes down to choice of weapons. Since women are physically weaker they will more often resort to psychological violence.

Exhibit A is how common physical violence is in lesbian relationships.

And yet, here we are, a lot less prone to violence than men.

First line of your message you ignore what I wrote and make up your own interpretation.

Psychological violence is also violence. But you decided to pretend that I only meant physical violence. Even though I explicitly say I mean both.

Since you couldn't be bothered to read my message I couldn't be bothered to read the rest of your message.
 

Angry Floof

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Humanities behaviour is the result of an evolutionary arms race. I find it hard to believe that women are any less prone to violence than men. I think the difference comes down to choice of weapons. Since women are physically weaker they will more often resort to psychological violence.

Exhibit A is how common physical violence is in lesbian relationships.

And yet, here we are, a lot less prone to violence than men.

First line of your message you ignore what I wrote and make up your own interpretation.

Psychological violence is also violence. But you decided to pretend that I only meant physical violence. Even though I explicitly say I mean both.

Since you couldn't be bothered to read my message I couldn't be bothered to read the rest of your message.

Yawn. What else is new? Whatever it takes to not give a shit about your fellow human beings. Whatever excuse to turn away. Thank you for that demonstration.
 

Angry Floof

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On Facebook yesterday. A girl was asked about her experiences and she said, "Not really, just groping and catcalling and stuff, just normal stuff."

That's not normal. It's not acceptable. Stop looking for reasons to criticize women and hold your fellow creeps accountable instead.
 

Lion IRC

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"...hold your fellow creeps accountable"

See?
THATS how you win hearts and minds.
#poison_well #friendly_fire
 
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