The Unequal Opportunity Race

[ruby sparks]

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX_Vzl-r8NY[/YOUTUBE]

I have a feeling this little animation might spark an interesting debate.

 

[Metaphor]

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX_Vzl-r8NY[/YOUTUBE]

I have a feeling this little animation might spark an interesting debate.

Oy vey. This is a good video to show people when you want to convince them affirmative action is based on broken thinking.

 

[ruby sparks]

Something that (pleasantly) surprised me was the apparently high number of comments below the video on youtube which were not dismissive of it. I expected responses to be predominantly negative, but by and large they weren't, especially the more one read through them at length. But perhaps I should not have been so surprised, given that a majority of people apparently support AA in principle at least. I guess I just didn't expect a representative sample to be responding on the internet below an arguably controversial youtube video.

 

[thebeave]

Am I the only one who sees the irony of a black versus white foot race as an analogy of unequal opportunity whites have over blacks? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the fastest runners in the world are generally black, largely because of superior muscle physiology. One might even say they have a "black privilege" when it comes to track and field events. Should we be giving other races a head start so they have an equal opportunity to win the event?

 

[ruby sparks]

Am I the only one who sees the irony of a black versus white foot race as an analogy of unequal opportunity whites have over blacks? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the fastest runners in the world are generally black, largely because of superior muscle physiology. One might even say they have a "black privilege" when it comes to track and field events. Should we be giving other races a head start so they have an equal opportunity to win the event?

No you are not the only one. One of the commenters picked up on something similar.

As to your question, maybe you could make an overall case for it? I don't think it, or a plethora of other similar inequality issues, would be an equivalent to the OP one however. But you probably already appreciate that.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Something that (pleasantly) surprised me was the apparently high number of comments below the video on youtube which were not dismissive of it. I expected responses to be predominantly negative, but by and large they weren't, especially the more one read through them at length. But perhaps I should not have been so surprised, given that a majority of people apparently support AA in principle at least. I guess I just didn't expect a representative sample to be responding on the internet below an arguably controversial youtube video.

I find the video to be a little simplistic. It certainly doesn't explain why immigrants outperform natives in the US. Immigrants start with far less than natives and often don't even speak the language.

 

[ruby sparks]

Something that (pleasantly) surprised me was the apparently high number of comments below the video on youtube which were not dismissive of it. I expected responses to be predominantly negative, but by and large they weren't, especially the more one read through them at length. But perhaps I should not have been so surprised, given that a majority of people apparently support AA in principle at least. I guess I just didn't expect a representative sample to be responding on the internet below an arguably controversial youtube video.

I find the video to be a little simplistic. It certainly doesn't explain why immigrants outperform natives in the US. Immigrants start with far less than natives and often don't even speak the language.

It is over-simplistic, yes. And it has other flaws too, imo. If you read through the comments section, the maker of the video accepts that it is not by any means at all a thorough examination or presentation of all the relevant issues and variables.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Something that (pleasantly) surprised me was the apparently high number of comments below the video on youtube which were not dismissive of it. I expected responses to be predominantly negative, but by and large they weren't, especially the more one read through them at length. But perhaps I should not have been so surprised, given that a majority of people apparently support AA in principle at least. I guess I just didn't expect a representative sample to be responding on the internet below an arguably controversial youtube video.

I find the video to be a little simplistic. It certainly doesn't explain why immigrants outperform natives in the US. Immigrants start with far less than natives and often don't even speak the language.

It is over-simplistic, yes. And it has other flaws too, imo. If you read through the comments section, the maker of the video accepts that it is not by any means at all a thorough examination or presentation of all the relevant issues and variables.

Well, I support AA and lowering barriers. However, often times people assume that a successful minority "made it" due to AA or getting favorable hiring treatment. These assumptions are hurtful and not helpful.

 

[ruby sparks]

I'm not sure it's true to say that immigrants start with far less, or even just less, than natives though (by which we obviously mean residents, citizens, not native/indigenous Americans), even taking language into account. My understanding is that due to immigration policies and other factors, immigrants generally are and have been, for example, more highly qualified on average than natives of any ethnicity* and that this at least partly explains some of their success**. They are (in more than one way) not a representative sample of the populations either from which they come or which they go to, and they have also not endured the same historical and ongoing structural, institutional and/or racist disadvantages and inequalities that some minorities in the US have.

For example I read that the majority (51%) of immigrants from China have (or had, in 2010) the equivalent of a college degree, while the percentage for China as a whole was only 4%. Percentage for Americans is 33% apparently (only 17% for blacks and 11% for hispanics). Added to which, the type of qualifications may be more useful (ie employable) in the case of immigrants. Even the willingness and endeavour to move to another country (continent indeed) and overcome the obstacles and separations this involves, may distinguish immigrants (psychologically/motivationally) from their own general, native populations, and the one they migrate into.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, I support AA and lowering barriers. However, often times people assume that a successful minority "made it" due to AA or getting favourable hiring treatment. These assumptions are hurtful and not helpful.

That is one unhelpful aspect of it, yes, apparently. It's complicated. My own view is that AA can be justified, but not every type of AA, not on a permanent basis, and only to the extent that it does or seems likely to do more good than harm, on balance, in this or that particular context and set against a backdrop of particular issues that may affect different demographics differently.



* This is not the case, apparently, for immigrants from Mexico, who are on average much less qualified than both their own native population and the US one.

** Added to which, while the percentage of immigrants who succeed (economically at least) is higher than for natives (including whites) the percentage who fail and are in poverty is also greater than for natives, so the pattern is different (has a greater statistical range) for immigrants, I read.

 

[dismal]

I was expecting a bunch of Asian runners to show up and start blowing past the white people at some point. But I guess this is one of those times where Asians are white people for the sake of the narrative.

How many white people here have had some old dude hand them a bunch of money?

My father was the child of immigrants and was the first in his family to go to college. I have inherited nothing but an expectation I would make something of myself.

 

[thebeave]

Am I the only one who sees the irony of a black versus white foot race as an analogy of unequal opportunity whites have over blacks? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the fastest runners in the world are generally black, largely because of superior muscle physiology. One might even say they have a "black privilege" when it comes to track and field events. Should we be giving other races a head start so they have an equal opportunity to win the event?

No you are not the only one. One of the commenters picked up on something similar.

As to your question, maybe you could make an overall case for it? I don't think it, or a plethora of other similar inequality issues, would be an equivalent to the OP one however. But you probably already appreciate that.

No, I don't want other races to get a head start. May the best man win. Sometimes life in general is not fair and the playing field can't/shouldn't always be leveled.

ETA: Just read through some of the Youtube comments. I found this one rather interesting:

This video is being shown to kids in my child's school. My kid came home crying because apparently the teacher explained that she, her parents, her grand parents, her history is responsible for slavery and her 'kind' should be ashamed. I'm finding this attitude to be prevalent in schools today.

I don't even know what to say to this video. The very thing it's trying to show, the very thing it is identifying, is now being pushed onto someone else? Forget my child is 12 yrs old, has nothing whatsoever to do with slavery from 100 years ago, but make sure to hold her in contempt and let her know it's her fault.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX_Vzl-r8NY[/YOUTUBE]

I have a feeling this little animation might spark an interesting debate.

Oy vey. This is a good video to show people when you want to convince them affirmative action is based on broken thinking.

Also pretty good if you want to push a lot of racial stereotypes or treat people as racial monoliths. It breaks down immediately when you start to look at people as individuals. And a much better video could be made here by simply addressing socioeconomic status rather than race. Race could and should be included as a much smaller barrier.

As for immigrants, I think immigrants do better (regardless of race) on average because so many of them come with a much broader perspective and approach it with an opportunity narrative rather than a victim narrative. Keep an eye on the recent Syrian refugees. I bet you dollars to donuts that a good number of them they and their children will go on to do better for themselves than home grown wallowers of past victimhood. These are Syrian refugees who literally came in with nothing. It is the same story with many other immigrants and with many people who grew up here but didn't subscribe to learned helplessness.

That people living in the west can create victimhood narratives for themselves and fall into learned helplessness is pretty shocking to many of us who have lived in or still have family in actually repressed or third world countries. We hear a lot of talk about "privilege" not being recognized by white men. Privilege of living in the west is one massive privilege (probably the biggest there is) that hardly ever gets mentioned or recognized by anybody.

 

[ruby sparks]

No, I don't want other races to get a head start. May the best man win. Sometimes life in general is not fair and the playing field can't/shouldn't always be leveled.

I don't tend to generally agree with that approach. Though it depends what you mean by sometimes.

ETA: Just read through some of the Youtube comments. I found this one rather interesting:

This video is being shown to kids in my child's school. My kid came home crying because apparently the teacher explained that she, her parents, her grand parents, her history is responsible for slavery and her 'kind' should be ashamed. I'm finding this attitude to be prevalent in schools today.

I don't even know what to say to this video. The very thing it's trying to show, the very thing it is identifying, is now being pushed onto someone else? Forget my child is 12 yrs old, has nothing whatsoever to do with slavery from 100 years ago, but make sure to hold her in contempt and let her know it's her fault.

Yes, I saw that one. It highlighted what for me was a big flaw in the video, especially given its intended use (to be shown to schoolchildren). Quite apart from the issue of responsibility and perceived blame (which I don't think is overtly in the video itself, but might be communicated by for instance a teacher) there is the issue that the video could be accused of being not only too simplistic but too racially divisive.

That said, I think it's a matter of degree and way of explaining. Imo, the video itself is flawed in at least a few different ways. But I don't, for instance, think it's a bad idea in principle for children to see such things even if they are unpleasant. The way black people have been and to a lesser extent still are treated and how they experienced and experience life in the USA is, imo, a valid cause for both national shame and embarrassment, most especially if what did happen and is happening is denied or underplayed, as is done routinely by one or two posters at this forum (not you, obviously).

 

[ZiprHead]

I think this video is a little better than the cartoon above at illustrating opportunity.

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/4K5fbQ1-zps[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I think this video is a little better than the cartoon above at illustrating opportunity.

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/4K5fbQ1-zps[/YOUTUBE]

I was thinking of this one too when seeing the cartoon. I remember this one from a while back. I remember how it equated race to everything.

 

[Mumbles]

Something that (pleasantly) surprised me was the apparently high number of comments below the video on youtube which were not dismissive of it. I expected responses to be predominantly negative, but by and large they weren't, especially the more one read through them at length. But perhaps I should not have been so surprised, given that a majority of people apparently support AA in principle at least. I guess I just didn't expect a representative sample to be responding on the internet below an arguably controversial youtube video.

I find the video to be a little simplistic. It certainly doesn't explain why immigrants outperform natives in the US. Immigrants start with far less than natives and often don't even speak the language.

This is often false. Immigrant groups that are successful in the US usually show up with a great deal of wealth, are often admitted to elite colleges and Universities, and the like. those who show up with little to nothing are generally refugees, and they're far less successful - see Vietnamese, Hmong, or Haitian communities as examples, in comparison to Indian, Chinese, or Nigerian immigrants.

 

[ruby sparks]

Something that (pleasantly) surprised me was the apparently high number of comments below the video on youtube which were not dismissive of it. I expected responses to be predominantly negative, but by and large they weren't, especially the more one read through them at length. But perhaps I should not have been so surprised, given that a majority of people apparently support AA in principle at least. I guess I just didn't expect a representative sample to be responding on the internet below an arguably controversial youtube video.

I find the video to be a little simplistic. It certainly doesn't explain why immigrants outperform natives in the US. Immigrants start with far less than natives and often don't even speak the language.

This is often false. Immigrant groups that are successful in the US usually show up with a great deal of wealth, are often admitted to elite colleges and Universities, and the like. those who show up with little to nothing are generally refugees, and they're far less successful - see Vietnamese, Hmong, or Haitian communities as examples, in comparison to Indian, Chinese, or Nigerian immigrants.

On top of that, the other day I came across something else. I had not realised that for example asian students sat SAT tests to get into US colleges (something like a million get in this way, or did I read that wrong?). Anyhows, apparently there is a fair amount of cheating, to do with the fact that the College Board reuses SATs in Asia that have already been used in the US and the content can be hacked (or asian test cramming tutors visit test centres in the US and elicit info from students coming out of tests). I actually read that one year, the SATs were cancelled for all of China, because of such goings on.

That aside, there is apparently a LOT of test-cramming and I read that some asians say that there is far too much emphasis and pressure on techniques to do well on tests (especially multiple choice sections) rather than on individual learning and creativity.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

This is often false. Immigrant groups that are successful in the US usually show up with a great deal of wealth, are often admitted to elite colleges and Universities, and the like. those who show up with little to nothing are generally refugees, and they're far less successful - see Vietnamese, Hmong, or Haitian communities as examples, in comparison to Indian, Chinese, or Nigerian immigrants.

I can't speak to Haitian, but Viet (and Cambodian and Filipino and Indonesian) people often do quite well despite coming over with very little, as compared to native born who start equally poor. It is true that a lot of Chinese come over rich these days.

Now, imagine yourself coming over from Vietnam/Cambodia/Philippines/Indonesia with very little and then applying for college and having the "Asians are privileged" stamp work against you...

 

[ZiprHead]

Something that (pleasantly) surprised me was the apparently high number of comments below the video on youtube which were not dismissive of it. I expected responses to be predominantly negative, but by and large they weren't, especially the more one read through them at length. But perhaps I should not have been so surprised, given that a majority of people apparently support AA in principle at least. I guess I just didn't expect a representative sample to be responding on the internet below an arguably controversial youtube video.

I find the video to be a little simplistic. It certainly doesn't explain why immigrants outperform natives in the US. Immigrants start with far less than natives and often don't even speak the language.

This is often false. Immigrant groups that are successful in the US usually show up with a great deal of wealth, are often admitted to elite colleges and Universities, and the like. those who show up with little to nothing are generally refugees, and they're far less successful - see Vietnamese, Hmong, or Haitian communities as examples, in comparison to Indian, Chinese, or Nigerian immigrants.

I agree with this. Do people really think poor Indians show up and immediately buy quarter of a million dollar convenience stores?

 

[dismal]

This is often false. Immigrant groups that are successful in the US usually show up with a great deal of wealth, are often admitted to elite colleges and Universities, and the like. those who show up with little to nothing are generally refugees, and they're far less successful - see Vietnamese, Hmong, or Haitian communities as examples, in comparison to Indian, Chinese, or Nigerian immigrants.

I agree with this. Do people really think poor Indians show up and immediately buy quarter of a million dollar convenience stores?

I just figured they got issued a business when they turned 16 like all white people do.