There Is a Black Man in the White House and He Isn't Pushing a Broom or Carrying a Tray.

[AthenaAwakened]

Does having a black president, black billionaires and millionaires, black folk on juries, black folk on the voters rolls, etc., mean that racism is over?

 

[abaddon]

If racism is strictly an institutional problem then that means it is nearly over.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

If racism is strictly an institutional problem then that means it is nearly over.

How so? Be specific.

 

[Metaphor]

Whoever imagined racism was over?

Are there black jurors?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Whoever imagined racism was over?

Are there black jurors?

You tell me. Unless you're too fragile.

 

[thebeave]

I sorta figured racism was officially over with the creation of Hootie and the Blowfish.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Whoever imagined racism was over?

Are there black jurors?

Racism will never be over. Whites will never catch up with us Indians! You are doomed to failure!

 

[Metaphor]

Whoever imagined racism was over?

Are there black jurors?

You tell me. Unless you're too fragile.

Since admitting to known facts seems to trouble you, I'll do it for you.

There are black jurors.

Now, since in the other thread, you mocked my idea of a 'powerless' white person by pointing out that white people can vote and they can sit on juries, I now ask you to apply the exact same reasoning to the black people on juries. Do they have power or do they not? If they do, then they too have institutional power and can be racist; if they do not have that power then neither do white people simply as jurors.

Pick.

 

[Derec]

Sure about that Athena?

LMAO! And brooms are more Hillary's forte:

 

[abaddon]

If racism is strictly an institutional problem then that means it is nearly over.

How so? Be specific.

If racism is strictly an institutional problem and politicians, rich folk, people active in the legal system, etc, are the institution then that shows the dominance of whites has become too weak or disinclined to bar blacks from being increasingly a significant part of the institution. It’s a strong indication it’s dying or at the least it's weakening a great deal.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I sorta figured racism was officially over with the creation of Hootie and the Blowfish.

I had not heard that one before, but I like it.

 

[fast]

Does having a black president, black billionaires and millionaires, black folk on juries, black folk on the voters rolls, etc., mean that racism is over?

If the scope of what racism purporedlty entails increases faster than the rate in which what once was considered racism decreases, then although racism (what it was once considered) isn't over (per se), but given the ever-increasing broadened scope of what it (apparently) now refers to, then racism (or should I say 'racism') isn't anywhere near over. So, either way, the answer is no, but the degree to which it's substantially better or not depends on exactly what racism covers.

For instance, if a decision is made that disproptionately and negatively affects blacks but without deliberate racist intentions, and if the effect itself by virtue of the disproportionate and negative effect is considered to be a product of racist actions, and if it's considered to be so notwithstanding the lack of racist intentions, then such 'racism' isn't over. Of course, racism isn't over either, but whether it has or has not substantially declined needs to be compared to something that is a bit more stable; the evolving breadth of what racism actually entails is still a bit elusive to me.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

How so? Be specific.

If racism is strictly an institutional problem and politicians, rich folk, people active in the legal system, etc, are the institution

But they aren't.

 Institutions are "stable, valued, recurring patterns of behavior."[1] As structures or mechanisms of social order, they govern the behaviour of a set of individuals within a given community. Institutions are identified with a social purpose, transcending individuals and intentions by mediating the rules that govern living behavior.

then that shows the dominance of whites has become too weak or disinclined to bar blacks from being increasingly a significant part of the institution. That’s not the end of racism but it’s a strong indication it’s dying or at the least it's weakening a great deal.

 

[abaddon]

If racism is strictly an institutional problem and politicians, rich folk, people active in the legal system, etc, are the institution

But they aren't.

 Institutions are "stable, valued, recurring patterns of behavior."[1] As structures or mechanisms of social order, they govern the behaviour of a set of individuals within a given community. Institutions are identified with a social purpose, transcending individuals and intentions by mediating the rules that govern living behavior.

Ok, the people are not the institution in/of themselves but are components of it. The non-exclusion of black persons means the recurring patterns of the institution are destabilized so the pattern is changing. So the institution is changing from racist to less racist. If the trend continues then possibly institutional racism is dying.

 

[bilby]

There Is a Black Man in the White House and He Isn't Pushing a Broom or Carrying a Tray.

Lazy bugger. I bet he is out of a job soon; they will get a woman in to replace him, and she will get those floors swept and drinks handed around quick-smart, you'll see.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

You tell me. Unless you're too fragile.

Since admitting to known facts seems to trouble you, I'll do it for you.

There are black jurors.

THE DICKENS YOU SAY!!!

Now, since in the other thread, you mocked my idea of a 'powerless' white person by pointing out that white people can vote and they can sit on juries, I now ask you to apply the exact same reasoning to the black people on juries.

First, I was answering a specific question with an example when I said that not making a universal statement, but go on.

Do they have power or do they not?

to reach a verdict in the case they are sitting on, yes. To remove systemic elements of white supremacy from the judicial system, no.

If they do, then they too have institutional power and can be racist

Oh, I don't dispute that. black people on a jury can convict black people for being the crime of being black and that would be in furtherance of the racism systemic to institutions of American life.

; if they do not have that power then neither do white people simply as jurors.

Again what i said was a specific response to a specific question and/or statement not a universal statement.

Pick.

Pick what?

There is nothing to pick. If racism is systemic, and so far no one has denied the existence of systemic racism, then the color of the actor is irrelevant, so long as the institutional goals are met, the institutional norms are maintained, and institutional order is kept.

Now i know that i am asking you to think outside of individualism. But give it a try.

- - - Updated - - -

There Is a Black Man in the White House and He Isn't Pushing a Broom or Carrying a Tray.

Lazy bugger. I bet he is out of a job soon; they will get a woman in to replace him, and she will get those floors swept and drinks handed around quick-smart, you'll see.

- - - Updated - - -

But they aren't.

 Institutions are "stable, valued, recurring patterns of behavior."[1] As structures or mechanisms of social order, they govern the behaviour of a set of individuals within a given community. Institutions are identified with a social purpose, transcending individuals and intentions by mediating the rules that govern living behavior.

Ok, the people are not the institution in/of themselves but are components of it. The non-exclusion of black persons means the recurring patterns of the institution are destabilized so the pattern is changing. So the institution is changing from racist to less racist. If the trend continues then possibly institutional racism is dying.

Let me repeat

If racism is systemic, and so far no one has denied the existence of systemic racism, then the color of the actor is irrelevant, so long as the institutional goals are met, the institutional norms are maintained, and institutional order is kept.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

If racism is strictly an institutional problem then that means it is nearly over.

I don't think that one can conclude that having some improvements means that the problem is nearly over, not just because a lot of problems become implicit, but especially because things can always get worse.

 

[Metaphor]

There is nothing to pick. If racism is systemic, and so far no one has denied the existence of systemic racism, then the color of the actor is irrelevant, so long as the institutional goals are met, the institutional norms are maintained, and institutional order is kept.

Now i know that i am asking you to think outside of individualism. But give it a try.

So, you agree then, that black people can be racist, because if the actor is irrelevant, the colour of the actor is irrelevant.

Do you agree that black people can be racist?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

There is nothing to pick. If racism is systemic, and so far no one has denied the existence of systemic racism, then the color of the actor is irrelevant, so long as the institutional goals are met, the institutional norms are maintained, and institutional order is kept.

Now i know that i am asking you to think outside of individualism. But give it a try.

So, you agree then, that black people can be racist, because if the actor is irrelevant, the colour of the actor is irrelevant.

So long as they are furthering the aims of the racism in question, which in this case is white supremacy, then of course.

Do you agree that black people can be racist?

Against other people of color? yes. BECAUSE racism under white supremacy (Which you apparently don't want to deal with) is designed to undervalue and underprivilege people of color and to value and privilege white people.

 

[Metaphor]

AA, do you see moral equivalence between the following actions, or is one of the actors worse than the other?

A white magistrate, whose pattern of sentencing indicates she consistently gives harsher penalties to black defendants when relevant factors are taken into account

A black magistrate, whose pattern of sentencing indicates she consistently gives harsher penalties to white defendants when relevant factors are taken into account