This Utah woman was charged for being topless in her own home.

[Jolly_Penguin]

Kids watch murder and mayhem on TV all day, yet a casual glimpse of a boob is an outrage to public decency?

Makes no sense at all does it?

 

[Toni]

Kids watch murder and mayhem on TV all day, yet a casual glimpse of a boob is an outrage to public decency?

Makes no sense at all does it?

There’s that.

Then there’s this: imagine that you (generic you) are staying with your parents this weekend. They are doing some kind of household project together and get all hot and sweaty and dirty. They take off their tops, and have a few swings of beer. Your mom says something to your dad along the lines of: I ain’t putting my shirt back on until you show me your dick. They know you are standing right there.

So maybe now you are all mature and all that and you don’t try to chalk this up to early onset Alzheimer’s . But my guess is that this makes you a little uncomfortable no matter how happy you might be for them that sparks still fly between your parents.. you know very well how you were conceived and you don’t need any reminders.

Now imagine this happens when you are 13.

It’s one thing to know in theory that your parents have an active sex life. It’s another altogether to know it closer to eye witnessing it.
M

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Kids watch murder and mayhem on TV all day, yet a casual glimpse of a boob is an outrage to public decency?

Makes no sense at all does it?

There’s that.

Then there’s this: imagine that you (generic you) are staying with your parents this weekend. They are doing some kind of household project together and get all hot and sweaty and dirty. They take off their tops, and have a few swings of beer. Your mom says something to your dad along the lines of: I ain’t putting my shirt back on until you show me your dick. They know you are standing right there.

So maybe now you are all mature and all that and you don’t try to chalk this up to early onset Alzheimer’s . But my guess is that this makes you a little uncomfortable no matter how happy you might be for them that sparks still fly between your parents.. you know very well how you were conceived and you don’t need any reminders.

Now imagine this happens when you are 13.

It’s one thing to know in theory that your parents have an active sex life. It’s another altogether to know it closer to eye witnessing it.
M

The question is whether this is really how it went down or is this the bitter ex making things up?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

If my mom decided to go topless where I could see it, that may make me a bit squeemish (though not really; it's no big deal) but if it did, that would hardly be a good basis to brand her a criminal. It should be her own choice. Men should stop telling women what they can do with their bodies, including how much of it they want to show.

It's odd how so many pro-choice people are pro-choice when it comes to the killing of another living being (abortion) but not in regards to nudism or prostitution etc.

 

[RVonse]

If my mom decided to go topless where I could see it, that may make me a bit squeemish (though not really; it's no big deal) but if it did, that would hardly be a good basis to brand her a criminal. It should be her own choice. Men should stop telling women what they can do with their bodies, including how much of it they want to show.

It's odd how so many pro-choice people are pro-choice when it comes to the killing of another living being (abortion) but not in regards to nudism or prostitution etc.

I completely agree. The only thing I would say differently is that government (instead of just men)should stop telling women what they can do with their bodies.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

If my mom decided to go topless where I could see it, that may make me a bit squeemish (though not really; it's no big deal) but if it did, that would hardly be a good basis to brand her a criminal. It should be her own choice. Men should stop telling women what they can do with their bodies, including how much of it they want to show.

It's odd how so many pro-choice people are pro-choice when it comes to the killing of another living being (abortion) but not in regards to nudism or prostitution etc.

I completely agree. The only thing I would say differently is that government (instead of just men)should stop telling women what they can do with their bodies.

Agreed. I specified men because that's how it is often phrased by pro-choice people.

 

[TSwizzle]

Don't you get tired of all these clickbait headlines ? She wasn't charged with being topless in her own home. She was charged with lewdness.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If my mom decided to go topless where I could see it, that may make me a bit squeemish (though not really; it's no big deal) but if it did, that would hardly be a good basis to brand her a criminal. It should be her own choice. Men should stop telling women what they can do with their bodies, including how much of it they want to show.

It's odd how so many pro-choice people are pro-choice when it comes to the killing of another living being (abortion) but not in regards to nudism or prostitution etc.

1) This happened in Utah.
2) Who is pro-choice in here that thinks the woman did something wrong via changing a shirt?

 

[Toni]

If my mom decided to go topless where I could see it, that may make me a bit squeemish (though not really; it's no big deal) but if it did, that would hardly be a good basis to brand her a criminal. It should be her own choice. Men should stop telling women what they can do with their bodies, including how much of it they want to show.

It's odd how so many pro-choice people are pro-choice when it comes to the killing of another living being (abortion) but not in regards to nudism or prostitution etc.

I don't have any problem with people walking around naked in their own homes. I think it gets a bit dicier when there are kids around. Pre-adolescents and adolescents often have very heightened sensibilities regarding the propriety of their parents and parental figures. It's one thing if there is an inadvertent flash of (name body part) and another if adults are not exercising respect for their kids' privacy which does include not being exposed to overly sexualized comments between adults, especially parental figures (the comment about needing to see the dick in this case).

 

[Toni]

There’s that.

Then there’s this: imagine that you (generic you) are staying with your parents this weekend. They are doing some kind of household project together and get all hot and sweaty and dirty. They take off their tops, and have a few swings of beer. Your mom says something to your dad along the lines of: I ain’t putting my shirt back on until you show me your dick. They know you are standing right there.

So maybe now you are all mature and all that and you don’t try to chalk this up to early onset Alzheimer’s . But my guess is that this makes you a little uncomfortable no matter how happy you might be for them that sparks still fly between your parents.. you know very well how you were conceived and you don’t need any reminders.

Now imagine this happens when you are 13.

It’s one thing to know in theory that your parents have an active sex life. It’s another altogether to know it closer to eye witnessing it.
M

The question is whether this is really how it went down or is this the bitter ex making things up?

Well the bit you responded to is me making it up as a speculation: what if it were you and your parents/parental figures? Most of us would feel at least a little squeamish and we're all presumably adults here.

It's one thing to talk about the rights of adults to be naked in their own homes and their rights to privacy. It is another to ignore the rights of kids to their own privacy in not being unnecessarily exposed to overly sexualized comments and images of their parents/parental figures.

Let's remove it one step further and pretend that father and step mom like watching porn together. Personally, I believe, as would child services, that the parents have a responsibility to take reasonable precautions that their porn habits are private with respect to the kids.

In the case of this family, I think that there are a few scenarios which are plausible:

1. The bio mother is over reacting/exaggerating in making a complaint to the police
2. One of the kids reacted badly to an inadvertent display and reported an exaggerated version to the mother who was alarmed.
3. The step mom is an exhibitionist who really ought to learn about filters and appropriate behavior when kids are around, if for no other reason than to avoid giving the bio parents something ELSE to bicker about.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There’s that.

Then there’s this: imagine that you (generic you) are staying with your parents this weekend. They are doing some kind of household project together and get all hot and sweaty and dirty. They take off their tops, and have a few swings of beer. Your mom says something to your dad along the lines of: I ain’t putting my shirt back on until you show me your dick. They know you are standing right there.

So maybe now you are all mature and all that and you don’t try to chalk this up to early onset Alzheimer’s . But my guess is that this makes you a little uncomfortable no matter how happy you might be for them that sparks still fly between your parents.. you know very well how you were conceived and you don’t need any reminders.

Now imagine this happens when you are 13.

It’s one thing to know in theory that your parents have an active sex life. It’s another altogether to know it closer to eye witnessing it.
M

The question is whether this is really how it went down or is this the bitter ex making things up?

Well the bit you responded to is me making it up as a speculation: what if it were you and your parents/parental figures? Most of us would feel at least a little squeamish and we're all presumably adults here.

I've seen them naked, no squeamishness about it. I also know my FIL saw me naked at least once, I don't give a hoot.

It's one thing to talk about the rights of adults to be naked in their own homes and their rights to privacy. It is another to ignore the rights of kids to their own privacy in not being unnecessarily exposed to overly sexualized comments and images of their parents/parental figures.

You're still assuming the report is accurate--but it's apparently from a bitter ex. Why should we trust it's accuracy without an investigation?

Let's remove it one step further and pretend that father and step mom like watching porn together. Personally, I believe, as would child services, that the parents have a responsibility to take reasonable precautions that their porn habits are private with respect to the kids.

There they should be more careful about what their kids see.

In the case of this family, I think that there are a few scenarios which are plausible:

1. The bio mother is over reacting/exaggerating in making a complaint to the police
2. One of the kids reacted badly to an inadvertent display and reported an exaggerated version to the mother who was alarmed.
3. The step mom is an exhibitionist who really ought to learn about filters and appropriate behavior when kids are around, if for no other reason than to avoid giving the bio parents something ELSE to bicker about.

I strongly suspect #1.

There's also #4--one (or more) of the kids doesn't like the new mom and wants her out of the picture and thus reported an exaggerated version of the events.

And #5--there was some sexual banter when they didn't realize the kids were around. Kids walking in on their parents even in the act isn't a CPS case.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

If my mom decided to go topless where I could see it, that may make me a bit squeemish (though not really; it's no big deal) but if it did, that would hardly be a good basis to brand her a criminal. It should be her own choice. Men should stop telling women what they can do with their bodies, including how much of it they want to show.

It's odd how so many pro-choice people are pro-choice when it comes to the killing of another living being (abortion) but not in regards to nudism or prostitution etc.

I don't have any problem with people walking around naked in their own homes. I think it gets a bit dicier when there are kids around. Pre-adolescents and adolescents often have very heightened sensibilities regarding the propriety of their parents and parental figures. It's one thing if there is an inadvertent flash of (name body part) and another if adults are not exercising respect for their kids' privacy which does include not being exposed to overly sexualized comments between adults, especially parental figures (the comment about needing to see the dick in this case).

Where do you think that sense of shame comes from? It's programmed into the kids by society and mostly by their parents themselves. Is it healthy? I don't think so. Nudist families go naked in front of each other often and it's no big deal. It's your puritan indoctrination talking here.

 

[laughing dog]

If my mom decided to go topless where I could see it, that may make me a bit squeemish (though not really; it's no big deal) but if it did, that would hardly be a good basis to brand her a criminal. It should be her own choice. Men should stop telling women what they can do with their bodies, including how much of it they want to show.

It's odd how so many pro-choice people are pro-choice when it comes to the killing of another living being (abortion) but not in regards to nudism or prostitution etc.

I don't have any problem with people walking around naked in their own homes. I think it gets a bit dicier when there are kids around. Pre-adolescents and adolescents often have very heightened sensibilities regarding the propriety of their parents and parental figures. It's one thing if there is an inadvertent flash of (name body part) and another if adults are not exercising respect for their kids' privacy which does include not being exposed to overly sexualized comments between adults, especially parental figures (the comment about needing to see the dick in this case).

Where do you think that sense of shame comes from? It's programmed into the kids by society and mostly by their parents themselves. Is it healthy? I don't think so. Nudist families go naked in front of each other often and it's no big deal. It's your puritan indoctrination talking here.

Actually, it clearly is acknowledgment of the effects of society and nothing else.

 

[Toni]

If my mom decided to go topless where I could see it, that may make me a bit squeemish (though not really; it's no big deal) but if it did, that would hardly be a good basis to brand her a criminal. It should be her own choice. Men should stop telling women what they can do with their bodies, including how much of it they want to show.

It's odd how so many pro-choice people are pro-choice when it comes to the killing of another living being (abortion) but not in regards to nudism or prostitution etc.

I don't have any problem with people walking around naked in their own homes. I think it gets a bit dicier when there are kids around. Pre-adolescents and adolescents often have very heightened sensibilities regarding the propriety of their parents and parental figures. It's one thing if there is an inadvertent flash of (name body part) and another if adults are not exercising respect for their kids' privacy which does include not being exposed to overly sexualized comments between adults, especially parental figures (the comment about needing to see the dick in this case).

Where do you think that sense of shame comes from? It's programmed into the kids by society and mostly by their parents themselves. Is it healthy? I don't think so. Nudist families go naked in front of each other often and it's no big deal. It's your puritan indoctrination talking here.

Who suggested that there was shame? Not me.

As children approach adolescence, they have a lot of sorting out to do, about life, fairness, sex and sexuality, their place in the world as they know it. Kids who grew up in an environment where parents were openly affectionate towards one another always often find it uncomfortable and unpleasant to witness the exact same displays of affection as they approach adolescence. Not because of any shame but because they're trying to figure out their own emerging sexual feelings and boundaries, with a lot of conflict between emerging desire to be independent and the knowledge that they still need the parents, etc. Plus, ask almost any 13 year old and most of them find their parents to be extremely embarrassing simply because they exist.

Besides, I'm not talking about accidentally seeing a parent naked or semi naked or with any of the normally considered private parts momentarily exposed. Or even walking around naked in front of one another because that's how the family rolls. I'm talking about the report of the step mother saying she'd put her own shirt back on AFTER the father showed her his dick. That's nothing to do with nudity and a lot to do with a display of sexual banter/play that is not appropriate where children are present.

Yes, that may not have happened. It may have been quite inadvertent that the kids overheard. We honestly don't know. There are a number of possible scenarios that I've listed and Loren has added to. I'm sure you can think of more.

Your assumptions about my puritanical ways are laughable and quite uninformed as well as inaccurate. They reveal a lot more about you than they do about me.

 

[Toni]

Well the bit you responded to is me making it up as a speculation: what if it were you and your parents/parental figures? Most of us would feel at least a little squeamish and we're all presumably adults here.

I've seen them naked, no squeamishness about it. I also know my FIL saw me naked at least once, I don't give a hoot.

And you're not 13. I would bet that at age 13 or so, you would probably have been somewhat embarrassed and very much more embarrassed to overhear sexual banter between your parents.

It's one thing to talk about the rights of adults to be naked in their own homes and their rights to privacy. It is another to ignore the rights of kids to their own privacy in not being unnecessarily exposed to overly sexualized comments and images of their parents/parental figures.

You're still assuming the report is accurate--but it's apparently from a bitter ex. Why should we trust it's accuracy without an investigation?

You're the one making assumptions here. You're assuming that I believe something without actually reading anything I've written. I personally think it is more likely that the bio mother either is making a big deal out of nothing and exaggerating events to suit her own purposes or else she is reporting an overblown report from her kids and believes the events as reported. I think it is most likely that the step mother didn't make the dick remark or if she did, she didn't realize the kids could overhear. But maybe not. Some people really have no business being around children.

Let's remove it one step further and pretend that father and step mom like watching porn together. Personally, I believe, as would child services, that the parents have a responsibility to take reasonable precautions that their porn habits are private with respect to the kids.

There they should be more careful about what their kids see.

Exactly. And even more so they should be careful about what their kids witness even inadvertently.

In the case of this family, I think that there are a few scenarios which are plausible:

1. The bio mother is over reacting/exaggerating in making a complaint to the police
2. One of the kids reacted badly to an inadvertent display and reported an exaggerated version to the mother who was alarmed.
3. The step mom is an exhibitionist who really ought to learn about filters and appropriate behavior when kids are around, if for no other reason than to avoid giving the bio parents something ELSE to bicker about.

I strongly suspect #1.

There's also #4--one (or more) of the kids doesn't like the new mom and wants her out of the picture and thus reported an exaggerated version of the events.

And #5--there was some sexual banter when they didn't realize the kids were around. Kids walking in on their parents even in the act isn't a CPS case.

Yes, those are all equally plausible. I would like to think that #5 is what actually happened and that the kids reported some version to the mother who reported it to CPS. But it could easily be any of the other potential scenarios: jealous bio mom, vengeful kiddies, exhibitionist/drunk stepmother and father, etc. We don't actually know and frankly, these family cases really should be private. It's too bad it has been reported in the newspapers. The kids deserve more privacy than that. Probably the parents do as well but certainly, the kids do.

 

[Gun Nut]

Kids watch murder and mayhem on TV all day, yet a casual glimpse of a boob is an outrage to public decency?

Makes no sense at all does it?

There’s that.

Then there’s this: imagine that you (generic you) are staying with your parents this weekend. They are doing some kind of household project together and get all hot and sweaty and dirty. They take off their tops, and have a few swings of beer. Your mom says something to your dad along the lines of: I ain’t putting my shirt back on until you show me your dick. They know you are standing right there.

So maybe now you are all mature and all that and you don’t try to chalk this up to early onset Alzheimer’s . But my guess is that this makes you a little uncomfortable no matter how happy you might be for them that sparks still fly between your parents.. you know very well how you were conceived and you don’t need any reminders.

Now imagine this happens when you are 13.

It’s one thing to know in theory that your parents have an active sex life. It’s another altogether to know it closer to eye witnessing it.
M

ok. Now imagine you are working on your home to make it much nicer to live in for your children, who are playing in the house happily.. you have good healthy food in the fridge, you recently helped the kids with their homework, and are sitting enjoying a cup of coffee when you get a call from the police informing you that you have been reported for child abuse and being drunk and disorderly and that they are seeking to remove your children from that house. Imagine that, then, for a while. How does that make you feel?

 

[Toni]

There’s that.

Then there’s this: imagine that you (generic you) are staying with your parents this weekend. They are doing some kind of household project together and get all hot and sweaty and dirty. They take off their tops, and have a few swings of beer. Your mom says something to your dad along the lines of: I ain’t putting my shirt back on until you show me your dick. They know you are standing right there.

So maybe now you are all mature and all that and you don’t try to chalk this up to early onset Alzheimer’s . But my guess is that this makes you a little uncomfortable no matter how happy you might be for them that sparks still fly between your parents.. you know very well how you were conceived and you don’t need any reminders.

Now imagine this happens when you are 13.

It’s one thing to know in theory that your parents have an active sex life. It’s another altogether to know it closer to eye witnessing it.
M

ok. Now imagine you are working on your home to make it much nicer to live in for your children, who are playing in the house happily.. you have good healthy food in the fridge, you recently helped the kids with their homework, and are sitting enjoying a cup of coffee when you get a call from the police informing you that you have been reported for child abuse and being drunk and disorderly and that they are seeking to remove your children from that house. Imagine that, then, for a while. How does that make you feel?

Do you imagine that I think that the most likely scenario is that the step mother and father deliberately exposed the kids to sexual behavior between the two of them?

Because that's not what I think is most likely, although unfortunately there are those adults or 'adults' who do not see anything wrong with them behaving however they want whenever they want.

My very best guess is that the dick remark was either not actually said or was said only because the father and the step mother did not realize the kids were able to see/hear what was going on.

The kids almost certainly told their mother some version of what we are seeing reported in the news. It may or may not have included the overtly sexual comment by the step mother. It may or may not have been an accurate report or it may or may not have become inflated in the kids' mind with no malice intended or even with malice. It may or may not have been reported as accurately as the bio mom could possibly have reported it or it may have come with some exaggerations from the bio mom. There is even the possibility that the step mom and the dad really should get some counseling and grow the hell up if they are going to be having the kids in their home.

I have no idea.

You have no idea.

What I am absolutely convinced is that this is best handled in family court and that the reporting of this 'news story' is definitely not in the best interests of the children here. And yes: I'm more concerned about the children than I am about the parents. Every. Damn. Time.

 

[Gun Nut]

There’s that.

Then there’s this: imagine that you (generic you) are staying with your parents this weekend. They are doing some kind of household project together and get all hot and sweaty and dirty. They take off their tops, and have a few swings of beer. Your mom says something to your dad along the lines of: I ain’t putting my shirt back on until you show me your dick. They know you are standing right there.

So maybe now you are all mature and all that and you don’t try to chalk this up to early onset Alzheimer’s . But my guess is that this makes you a little uncomfortable no matter how happy you might be for them that sparks still fly between your parents.. you know very well how you were conceived and you don’t need any reminders.

Now imagine this happens when you are 13.

It’s one thing to know in theory that your parents have an active sex life. It’s another altogether to know it closer to eye witnessing it.
M

ok. Now imagine you are working on your home to make it much nicer to live in for your children, who are playing in the house happily.. you have good healthy food in the fridge, you recently helped the kids with their homework, and are sitting enjoying a cup of coffee when you get a call from the police informing you that you have been reported for child abuse and being drunk and disorderly and that they are seeking to remove your children from that house. Imagine that, then, for a while. How does that make you feel?

Do you imagine that I think that the most likely scenario is that the step mother and father deliberately exposed the kids to sexual behavior between the two of them?

Because that's not what I think is most likely, although unfortunately there are those adults or 'adults' who do not see anything wrong with them behaving however they want whenever they want.

My very best guess is that the dick remark was either not actually said or was said only because the father and the step mother did not realize the kids were able to see/hear what was going on.

The kids almost certainly told their mother some version of what we are seeing reported in the news. It may or may not have included the overtly sexual comment by the step mother. It may or may not have been an accurate report or it may or may not have become inflated in the kids' mind with no malice intended or even with malice. It may or may not have been reported as accurately as the bio mom could possibly have reported it or it may have come with some exaggerations from the bio mom. There is even the possibility that the step mom and the dad really should get some counseling and grow the hell up if they are going to be having the kids in their home.

I have no idea.

You have no idea.

What I am absolutely convinced is that this is best handled in family court and that the reporting of this 'news story' is definitely not in the best interests of the children here. And yes: I'm more concerned about the children than I am about the parents. Every. Damn. Time.

Yup. That is correct.

So the "how would you feel if..." post of yours was inappropriate because you (in a literary manner) fully accepted the story as true, then paint an analogy to "help us" empathize with why it was such a terrible thing that totally happened.

What was the point of that post if you agree there is no reason to believe what you are trying to get us to empathize with?

 

[Toni]

Do you imagine that I think that the most likely scenario is that the step mother and father deliberately exposed the kids to sexual behavior between the two of them?

Because that's not what I think is most likely, although unfortunately there are those adults or 'adults' who do not see anything wrong with them behaving however they want whenever they want.

My very best guess is that the dick remark was either not actually said or was said only because the father and the step mother did not realize the kids were able to see/hear what was going on.

The kids almost certainly told their mother some version of what we are seeing reported in the news. It may or may not have included the overtly sexual comment by the step mother. It may or may not have been an accurate report or it may or may not have become inflated in the kids' mind with no malice intended or even with malice. It may or may not have been reported as accurately as the bio mom could possibly have reported it or it may have come with some exaggerations from the bio mom. There is even the possibility that the step mom and the dad really should get some counseling and grow the hell up if they are going to be having the kids in their home.

I have no idea.

You have no idea.

What I am absolutely convinced is that this is best handled in family court and that the reporting of this 'news story' is definitely not in the best interests of the children here. And yes: I'm more concerned about the children than I am about the parents. Every. Damn. Time.

Yup. That is correct.

So the "how would you feel if..." post of yours was inappropriate because you (in a literary manner) fully accepted the story as true, then paint an analogy to "help us" empathize with why it was such a terrible thing that totally happened.

What was the point of that post if you agree there is no reason to believe what you are trying to get us to empathize with?

Nope. I never accepted any of the proposed versions as being the ‘real story,’ including the ones that I proposed. I’ll mention again that Loren also suggested some plausible scenarios. I’d like to think that the adults made comments they were not aware the kids could overhear and that the kids reported some version to the bio mom who reported to the authorities. I’d really like to believe that there was no deliberate malice on the part of any of them. Which may or may no be true. We don’t know.

Which you would know if you had been following the conversation instead of assuming what I think.

The point was thrown out there to ask people to consider why it would be a big deal *if* that particular scenario occurred. It’s not a matter of uptight society twisting the poor little minds of children as some have suggested. It’s more about adults or ‘adults’ refusing to accept the responsibilities that come with adulthood, and parenthood, which include respecting the limits along with the joys of children’s developmental stages. Again: I was referring to one particular scenario.