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This week in patriarchy: Ukraine expels women and children so men can have combat to themselves

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Metaphor

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Male Ukraine citizens aged 18-60 have been forbidden from leaving Ukraine. Particular details and exceptions are noted here. I understand that this is in order to benefit men, who wanted a break from the women and children and were excited about cosplaying army to a really realistic level.

And so it stands to reason that CBS would spotlight one particular man who identifies as a woman, who cannot leave the country because his passport says 'male'. Oddly, though, Faámelu speaks as though his transness is the barrier and not his maleness:

"This is not a very rainbow-friendly place. ... Lives for trans people are very bleak here," Faámelu said. "If you have a male gender in your passport, they will not let you go abroad. They will not let you through."
While it's true that anyone with a 'male' gender on their passport won't be let out, that's because Ukraine isn't letting males 18-60 out of the country.

The headline here is not that half the country is being forbidden to leave on the basis of their sex, no, but that one man who identifies as a woman is somehow more especially hard done by when the same rule applies to him.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Would you mind explaining "expels"?

They're saying if you have combat training you need to stay. That's not the same as saying anyone else needs to leave. People are simply getting their families to safety.
 

Metaphor

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Would you mind explaining "expels"?
My thread title is screaming, over-the-top satire.

Ukraine is not expelling anybody, it is allowing women and children to leave.

Men are not staying because they want 'combat to themselves'; they are staying because they are forbidden from leaving.
 

Harry Bosch

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Would you mind explaining "expels"?
My thread title is screaming, over-the-top satire.

Ukraine is not expelling anybody, it is allowing women and children to leave.

Men are not staying because they want 'combat to themselves'; they are staying because they are forbidden from leaving.
Well, The Russians want their land. You don't think that they should fight for it? The US has a draft that we've used when fighting overseas (Vietnam). In Ukraine, they aren't attacking any foreign country that they disagree with. I'd give them some latitude here...
 

Metaphor

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Well, The Russians want their land. You don't think that they should fight for it? The US has a draft that we've used when fighting overseas (Vietnam). In Ukraine, they aren't attacking any foreign country that they disagree with. I'd give them some latitude here...
I am against the draft and I am against the State discriminating by sex in instituting the draft.

Australia also drafted her men to fight in Vietnam, by birth date lottery. Not any lottery I'd want to win.
 

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Well, The Russians want their land. You don't think that they should fight for it? The US has a draft that we've used when fighting overseas (Vietnam). In Ukraine, they aren't attacking any foreign country that they disagree with. I'd give them some latitude here...
I am against the draft and I am against the State discriminating by sex in instituting the draft.

Australia also drafted her men to fight in Vietnam, by birth date lottery. Not any lottery I'd want to win.
I've always been against the draft also. But most the wars that my country gets involved in are wars of choice. Probably not Afghanistan. But the Ukrainians are fighting for their homes. Some are forced to vacate on foot with young kids in the snow. I'd give them incredible latitude and grace. Many women are fighting in Ukraine also btw. Most will be killed.
 

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"Today in iidb, it's another episode of 'I've run out of reasons to justify the invasion of Ukraine, and am now grasping at straws.' "
 

Metaphor

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I've always been against the draft also. But most the wars that my country gets involved in are wars of choice. Probably not Afghanistan. But the Ukrainians are fighting for their homes. Some are forced to vacate on foot with young kids in the snow. I'd give them incredible latitude and grace. Many women are fighting in Ukraine also btw. Most will be killed.
I have no problem with men or women staying if they want to. I have a problem with Ukraine forbidding men from leaving.
 

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Good to see that Ukraine is not led by "cucked faggots"...

You are a man, you are supposed to be expendable in comparison to women. Comes with the territory.
 

Harry Bosch

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I've always been against the draft also. But most the wars that my country gets involved in are wars of choice. Probably not Afghanistan. But the Ukrainians are fighting for their homes. Some are forced to vacate on foot with young kids in the snow. I'd give them incredible latitude and grace. Many women are fighting in Ukraine also btw. Most will be killed.
I have no problem with men or women staying if they want to. I have a problem with Ukraine forbidding men from leaving.
I have a lot of problems that piss me off. I'm upset that my wife forgot to buy coffee yesterday (have to drink tea this morning). And then it's raining at my local ski mountain. So, can't ski. God dammit. But I'm dang sure not going to judge every action that a country makes that is under threat of total annihilation.
 

Metaphor

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I've always been against the draft also. But most the wars that my country gets involved in are wars of choice. Probably not Afghanistan. But the Ukrainians are fighting for their homes. Some are forced to vacate on foot with young kids in the snow. I'd give them incredible latitude and grace. Many women are fighting in Ukraine also btw. Most will be killed.
I have no problem with men or women staying if they want to. I have a problem with Ukraine forbidding men from leaving.
I have a lot of problems that piss me off. I'm upset that my wife forgot to buy coffee yesterday (have to drink tea this morning). And then it's raining at my local ski mountain. So, can't ski. God dammit. But I'm dang sure not going to judge every action that a country makes that is under threat of total annihilation.
I have a far bigger problem with the State appropriating men's bodies than I do with missing out on coffee, but I suppose we include different things in our moral sphere of concern.
 

Harry Bosch

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I've always been against the draft also. But most the wars that my country gets involved in are wars of choice. Probably not Afghanistan. But the Ukrainians are fighting for their homes. Some are forced to vacate on foot with young kids in the snow. I'd give them incredible latitude and grace. Many women are fighting in Ukraine also btw. Most will be killed.
I have no problem with men or women staying if they want to. I have a problem with Ukraine forbidding men from leaving.
I have a lot of problems that piss me off. I'm upset that my wife forgot to buy coffee yesterday (have to drink tea this morning). And then it's raining at my local ski mountain. So, can't ski. God dammit. But I'm dang sure not going to judge every action that a country makes that is under threat of total annihilation.
I have a far bigger problem with the State appropriating men's bodies than I do with missing out on coffee, but I suppose we include different things in our moral sphere of concern.
If you and I currently lived in Ukraine, I very much doubt that our major concerns right now would be the state appropriating men's bodies or missing out on coffee. When we are comfortable, it's easy to judge other who are desperate.
 

Metaphor

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I've always been against the draft also. But most the wars that my country gets involved in are wars of choice. Probably not Afghanistan. But the Ukrainians are fighting for their homes. Some are forced to vacate on foot with young kids in the snow. I'd give them incredible latitude and grace. Many women are fighting in Ukraine also btw. Most will be killed.
I have no problem with men or women staying if they want to. I have a problem with Ukraine forbidding men from leaving.
I have a lot of problems that piss me off. I'm upset that my wife forgot to buy coffee yesterday (have to drink tea this morning). And then it's raining at my local ski mountain. So, can't ski. God dammit. But I'm dang sure not going to judge every action that a country makes that is under threat of total annihilation.
I have a far bigger problem with the State appropriating men's bodies than I do with missing out on coffee, but I suppose we include different things in our moral sphere of concern.
If you and I currently lived in Ukraine, I very much doubt that our major concerns right now would be the state appropriating men's bodies or missing out on coffee. When we are comfortable, it's easy to judge other who are desperate.
It beggars belief that you can imagine so. If I currently lived in the Ukraine, the idea that I would be forced to stay behind (and probably die) instead of having the option of fleeing with my family would concern me greatly.
 

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I've always been against the draft also. But most the wars that my country gets involved in are wars of choice. Probably not Afghanistan. But the Ukrainians are fighting for their homes. Some are forced to vacate on foot with young kids in the snow. I'd give them incredible latitude and grace. Many women are fighting in Ukraine also btw. Most will be killed.
I have no problem with men or women staying if they want to. I have a problem with Ukraine forbidding men from leaving.
I have a lot of problems that piss me off. I'm upset that my wife forgot to buy coffee yesterday (have to drink tea this morning). And then it's raining at my local ski mountain. So, can't ski. God dammit. But I'm dang sure not going to judge every action that a country makes that is under threat of total annihilation.
I have a far bigger problem with the State appropriating men's bodies than I do with missing out on coffee, but I suppose we include different things in our moral sphere of concern.
If you and I currently lived in Ukraine, I very much doubt that our major concerns right now would be the state appropriating men's bodies or missing out on coffee. When we are comfortable, it's easy to judge other who are desperate.
It beggars belief that you can imagine so. If I currently lived in the Ukraine, the idea that I would be forced to stay behind (and probably die) instead of having the option of fleeing with my family would concern me greatly.
Well, your home isn't in Ukraine. You aren't there. So, we don't know for sure, do we? My only point is that i don't think we should judge a people for the short-term decisions that are made when they are desperate.
 

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I think the important question here is how the defenders are digging slit trenches. Is there one per deployed unit? Or are there three: male, female, woke?*
How can we possibly evaluate the Ukranians' desire for democratic freedom without knowing their stance on bathrooms?
 

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I have a far bigger problem with the State appropriating men's bodies than I do with missing out on coffee, but I suppose we include different things in our moral sphere of concern.
If you and I currently lived in Ukraine, I very much doubt that our major concerns right now would be the state appropriating men's bodies or missing out on coffee. When we are comfortable, it's easy to judge other who are desperate.
It beggars belief that you can imagine so. If I currently lived in the Ukraine, the idea that I would be forced to stay behind (and probably die) instead of having the option of fleeing with my family would concern me greatly.
Of all the bemoaning done over isolated situations thousands of miles from your home, whining about tyranny... it is funny to read that you think you wouldn't be concerned with fighting actual tyranny at your doorstep.
 

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I have a far bigger problem with the State appropriating men's bodies than I do with missing out on coffee, but I suppose we include different things in our moral sphere of concern.
If you and I currently lived in Ukraine, I very much doubt that our major concerns right now would be the state appropriating men's bodies or missing out on coffee. When we are comfortable, it's easy to judge other who are desperate.
It beggars belief that you can imagine so. If I currently lived in the Ukraine, the idea that I would be forced to stay behind (and probably die) instead of having the option of fleeing with my family would concern me greatly.
Of all the bemoaning done over isolated situations thousands of miles from your home, whining about tyranny... it is funny to read that you think you wouldn't be concerned with fighting actual tyranny at your doorstep.
Oh my gosh that's a great point that I totally didn't see at first. If Russia takes over Ukraine - there will be absolutely zero personal rights. None. Ukrainians taking a tiny portion of personal rights away for a short term in desperation pales to the rights that will be lost under Mad Vlad.
 

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I've always been against the draft also. But most the wars that my country gets involved in are wars of choice. Probably not Afghanistan. But the Ukrainians are fighting for their homes. Some are forced to vacate on foot with young kids in the snow. I'd give them incredible latitude and grace. Many women are fighting in Ukraine also btw. Most will be killed.
I have no problem with men or women staying if they want to. I have a problem with Ukraine forbidding men from leaving.
I have a lot of problems that piss me off. I'm upset that my wife forgot to buy coffee yesterday (have to drink tea this morning). And then it's raining at my local ski mountain. So, can't ski. God dammit. But I'm dang sure not going to judge every action that a country makes that is under threat of total annihilation.
I have a far bigger problem with the State appropriating men's bodies than I do with missing out on coffee, but I suppose we include different things in our moral sphere of concern.
Irony dies again.
 

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I think the headline here is “Really? This is what catches the eye in Ukraine?”.
Apparently you don't care when the State appropriates men's bodies. Some of us do care, laughing dog.
The OP disguises that alleged concern well behind the blatantly false use of the term “expel” and the singular focus on one of your boring targets of ire - a trans person.

Sorry, your “satire” missed your alleged mark.
 

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Is the word forbidden any more accurate than expelled?
Tom
 

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Is the word forbidden any more accurate than expelled?
Tom
No because women and children were not forbidden to go or to stsy.
I wonder if anyone was.
Prioritizing other groups before combat age males isn't quite the same. Since nobody is being expelled, I strongly suspect that few are forbidden either.
Tom
 

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Women join Ukraine's army in huge numbers as Russian threat looms

According to The Wall Street Journal, women make up 15 per cent of the military force in Ukraine.


I am against the State discriminating by sex in instituting the draft.
Then rejoice, dude. Once again, you have your panties in a bunch over something that just is not so.
From December, when it became apparent that Pootey was going to try another land grab in Ukraine:
Ukraine Requires Women to Register for Military Conscription as Russia Threat Looms

... now, what were you saying, Meta? Just talking out your ass?
 

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The headline here is not that half the country is being forbidden to leave on the basis of their sex, no, but that one man who identifies as a woman is somehow more especially hard done by when the same rule applies to him.
So that's the "headline" hunh? Wow. [The 'wow' is satire.] CBS is not one of the news sources I consult (except for Stephen Colbert's Late Show!); but if I typed 'cbs.com' or whatever it is, would I see this story on their front page? (Never mind whether it is the 'headline' or not.)

Or is this story what turns up if one Googles 'Help me exploit the tragedy in Ukraine to feed my diatribes against LGBT"?
 

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Just curious... does Au allow gays to serve in their military?
 

Elixir

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Just curious... does Au allow gays to serve in their military?
LGBs were allowed in 1992, Ts allowed in 2010.
So, Meta’s indignation might have some basis after all. “They’re not as progressive as we are” has some resonance.
OTOH it’s not clear why anyone would expect a former Soviet bloc country to lead the way … the fact that Ukraine does lead the way among former Soviet holdings, is sufficient to gain my respect and admiration.
 

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Just curious... does Au allow gays to serve in their military?
LGBs were allowed in 1992, Ts allowed in 2010.
So, Meta’s indignation might have some basis after all. “They’re not as progressive as we are” has some resonance.
The good news is that as the Russians get closer, the defenders get more progressive. They'll give guns to anyone that can hold it. It's more desperation than enlightenment, but they'll just wipe out ageism, sexism, all that shit goes into the same rubble pile as the churches, libraries, Holocaust Museum....
 

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Just curious... does Au allow gays to serve in their military?
LGBs were allowed in 1992, Ts allowed in 2010.
LGBs have always been allowed.
No, they most emphatically have not always been allowed.
They've always been present. They've always served. They've probably been overrepresented among the services. But you can't say 'always allowed.'
While some individuals would turn a blind eye, you couldn't count on it as a policy, even at a command level. If you got caught and someone went snakeshit, the system was on the shitty side. Even if the skipper was tolerant, he couldn't make his unit a tolerant unit.
 

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Just curious... does Au allow gays to serve in their military?
LGBs were allowed in 1992, Ts allowed in 2010.
LGBs have always been allowed.
No, they most emphatically have not been allowed.
They've been present. They've served. They've probably been overrepresented among the services. But you can't say 'allowed.'
While some individuals would turn a blind eye, you couldn't count on it as a policy, even at a command level. If you got caught and someone went snakeshit, the system was on the shitty side. Even if the skipper was tolerant, he couldn't make his unit a tolerant unit.

I disagree. But all I have to go on, from the standpoint of "military experience", is my nephew.
He's recently retired Army E-8. Multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. Seriously het. Seriously military.
He hated DADT.

He hated it because it meant protecting his men from the enemy while also protecting them from the Army.
Maybe he's an outlier, I don't know.
Tom
 

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Just curious... does Au allow gays to serve in their military?
LGBs were allowed in 1992, Ts allowed in 2010.
LGBs have always been allowed.
No, they most emphatically have not been allowed.
They've been present. They've served. They've probably been overrepresented among the services. But you can't say 'allowed.'
While some individuals would turn a blind eye, you couldn't count on it as a policy, even at a command level. If you got caught and someone went snakeshit, the system was on the shitty side. Even if the skipper was tolerant, he couldn't make his unit a tolerant unit.

I disagree. But all I have to go on, from the standpoint of "military experience", is my nephew.
He's recently retired Army E-8. Multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. Seriously het. Seriously military.
He hated DADT.

He hated it because it meant protecting his men from the enemy while also protecting them from the Army.
Maybe he's an outlier, I don't know.
Tom
So your 'always' goes back as far as, what, Clinton?
Yeah, i hated DADT also. Figured if we were going to decriminalize homosexuality, we shouldn't still have to hide it.

But that's just it. They still had to hide it. Not as stringently, or with as much paranoia as before, but they still could not talk about an amusing anecdote during sex the same way the straights could.
And before DADT, they had to hide it completely.

Because it wasn't always allowed.
 

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Frankly, no.
But i have stipulated 'always present.' I'll say the 'always' extends all the way back to Ur.
I have speculated that Ham was gay. Or maybe bi. Either way, Noah's reaction to being seen naked was all out of proprtion... except compared to a lot of sailors i've known, who joke about buttsex, but when you point out it's even possible a gay has seen them naked in the shower.
I wonder, now, if Abel might have been gay? Four people on Earth. Two are having the sex. Abel turns to the other and says, "Hey, we could try that?" Then Cain's trying to hide the body and telling himself, "It's because his sacrifices got all the attention!"

Anyway, I still say 'always allowed' is incorrect. Your own friend said it, he had to protect his peeps from the Army. Because it wasn't allowed.
 

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So your 'always' goes back as far as, what, Clinton?
I was thinking Sparta and such.
Okay. I actually had WWII in mind. Which is odd, i didn't enlist until 80. But either way, 'always' still doesn't apply. Some militaries have, but not all.

Ever wonder how much rapey buttsecks the Crusaders got up to, while the wimmins were back home in chastity belts?
Tom
Capt. Oveur, I think you are getting off-topic here.
 

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Frankly, no.
But i have stipulated 'always present.' I'll say the 'always' extends all the way back to Ur.
Can we go one thread without you railing on about military admission practices in Abram's hometown?
 

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I've always been against the draft also. But most the wars that my country gets involved in are wars of choice. Probably not Afghanistan. But the Ukrainians are fighting for their homes. Some are forced to vacate on foot with young kids in the snow. I'd give them incredible latitude and grace. Many women are fighting in Ukraine also btw. Most will be killed.
I have no problem with men or women staying if they want to. I have a problem with Ukraine forbidding men from leaving.
I have a lot of problems that piss me off. I'm upset that my wife forgot to buy coffee yesterday (have to drink tea this morning). And then it's raining at my local ski mountain. So, can't ski. God dammit. But I'm dang sure not going to judge every action that a country makes that is under threat of total annihilation.
I have a far bigger problem with the State appropriating men's bodies than I do with missing out on coffee, but I suppose we include different things in our moral sphere of concern.
If you and I currently lived in Ukraine, I very much doubt that our major concerns right now would be the state appropriating men's bodies or missing out on coffee. When we are comfortable, it's easy to judge other who are desperate.
It beggars belief that you can imagine so. If I currently lived in the Ukraine, the idea that I would be forced to stay behind (and probably die) instead of having the option of fleeing with my family would concern me greatly.
I'm sure it would.

Me? I'm old and out of shape but I know enough chemistry to do some damage. I'd stay. But that's me.
 

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So your 'always' goes back as far as, what, Clinton?
I was thinking Sparta and such.
Okay. I actually had WWII in mind. Which is odd, i didn't enlist until 80. But either way, 'always' still doesn't apply. Some militaries have, but not all.

Ever wonder how much rapey buttsecks the Crusaders got up to, while the wimmins were back home in chastity belts?
Tom
Capt. Oveur, I think you are getting off-topic here.

Everybody else gets to have fun in Metaphors threads.
Tom
 

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Just curious... does Au allow gays to serve in their military?
LGBs were allowed in 1992, Ts allowed in 2010.
LGBs have always been allowed.
No, they most emphatically have not been allowed.
They've been present. They've served. They've probably been overrepresented among the services. But you can't say 'allowed.'
While some individuals would turn a blind eye, you couldn't count on it as a policy, even at a command level. If you got caught and someone went snakeshit, the system was on the shitty side. Even if the skipper was tolerant, he couldn't make his unit a tolerant unit.

I disagree. But all I have to go on, from the standpoint of "military experience", is my nephew.
He's recently retired Army E-8. Multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. Seriously het. Seriously military.
He hated DADT.

He hated it because it meant protecting his men from the enemy while also protecting them from the Army.
Maybe he's an outlier, I don't know.
Tom
Most of the people my son has served with are fairly left wing--like, to the left of me. OTOH, a young woman I know who recently returned from a tour in the mideast belongs to a unit that seems fairly conservative in their political beliefs. I suppose it all depends. With regards to those I know who are currently serving, they are young enough that DADT means nothing to them.
 

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I've always been against the draft also. But most the wars that my country gets involved in are wars of choice. Probably not Afghanistan. But the Ukrainians are fighting for their homes. Some are forced to vacate on foot with young kids in the snow. I'd give them incredible latitude and grace. Many women are fighting in Ukraine also btw. Most will be killed.
I have no problem with men or women staying if they want to. I have a problem with Ukraine forbidding men from leaving.
I have a lot of problems that piss me off. I'm upset that my wife forgot to buy coffee yesterday (have to drink tea this morning). And then it's raining at my local ski mountain. So, can't ski. God dammit. But I'm dang sure not going to judge every action that a country makes that is under threat of total annihilation.
I have a far bigger problem with the State appropriating men's bodies than I do with missing out on coffee, but I suppose we include different things in our moral sphere of concern.
If you and I currently lived in Ukraine, I very much doubt that our major concerns right now would be the state appropriating men's bodies or missing out on coffee. When we are comfortable, it's easy to judge other who are desperate.
It beggars belief that you can imagine so. If I currently lived in the Ukraine, the idea that I would be forced to stay behind (and probably die) instead of having the option of fleeing with my family would concern me greatly.
It would concern most people greatly. Doesn't mean they would disagree with it or refuse to defend their homeland from invaders.

When I was very young man, I had to register for the draft during the Vietnam War. I always wondered if I "won" the lottery, if I would have fled the USA or not. I suspect I would not have, but I never had to make that choice. I do know that if the USA had been invaded, I would have joined up to defend my homeland.
 
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