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Those Terrorists in Nevada

Have drones will video....:boom:
Humm... If it is true that there are no other ranchers in that area, I'm sure we could find some virulent cattle-specific disease to solve the problem with. If the big bad government was as evil as these wingnuts seem to think, then they would have just done that instead of bothering hiring cowboys.

As for the merits...
The grazing-rights leases are basically a token amount of money. The limits are what really matter. They are ideally (in theroy) set so that the land will be remail self-sustaining in the long run.
I am highly skeptical the reduced number of allowable cattle has anything to do with protecting the desert tortise in this case; that sounds like exactly the sort of shit a wingnut would make up (since they they been a factor in some cases) and the right-wing media would repeat ad-nasuim. More likely, the land really just can't support more than a couple of hundred head in the long-run (especially when recovering from fires). The BLM counted 908 head.

PS: I've only had a few interactions with ranchers on BLM land... almost all of them have been pretty bad though. Entitled, self-important ass-holes who think they can do pretty much whatever they want to (and control all access on) land they have paid a pittance for *temporary* grazing rights on.
 
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I am highly skeptical the reduced number of allowable cattle has anything to do with protecting the desert tortise in this case; that sounds like exactly the sort of shit a wingnut would make up (since they they been a factor in some cases) and the right-wing media would repeat ad-nasuim.

...that, and some hypothetical solar project... I guess cows release solar-panel-degrading radiation?

It's like they think if the government wants to use its land in some kind of "green" or "environmental" sense that justifies ranchers seizing it from them by force, hence all this seemingly unrelated crap about tortoises and solar panels.
 
...that, and some hypothetical solar project... I guess cows release solar-panel-degrading radiation?

It's like they think if the government wants to use its land in some kind of "green" or "environmental" sense that justifies ranchers seizing it from them by force, hence all this seemingly unrelated crap about tortoises and solar panels.
My read is that there really is a "green" purpose... They are trying to enforce policies which protect the land from being seriously degraded by overgrazing.
I'm not going to make any claims about the particulars in this case, since I don't know them, but long-term management is the reason for grazing fees and limits.

PS: I'd love to see some data on how many head have grazed in that area historically. 150 (the legal limit I've seen mentioned) might not seem like a lot, but my impression is that the land is really marginal and only getting worse (at least in the forseeable future). ~1000 may be a rediculously large number, but I really just don't know.

PPS: Tangentially related... If you've never seen Ken Burns's film The Dust Bowl, I think it is well worth watching.
 
Just think. Every time Shaun Klannity talks about good ole boy Bundy, the thief crook white separatist he gets a chubby!

For all the anti Big Gubermit types here this is like a beautiful wet dream. There is Shaun and his Faux News Alternative Reality reg TM stoking this 20 year court legal battle for not paying fees and over grazing penalties into a "Battle of Bunkerville!" reg TM. I mean for God, oops, sakes it is the fegin second coming, see wet dream, of the American revolution.

Where else could another religious self described local strongman gather all his ideological fanatics and brandish automatic weapons and sniper rifles everywhere one looks. If this was in the Pushtun region of Afghanistan then good ole boy Bundy would be a "terrorist," and then all the state troopers, BLM agents and FBI would be heros fighting the war of terrorism, reg TM. But since it is a stone cold white man wearing a white stetson he now becomes a hero in the eyes of brave chicken hawks like Klannity. Never mind that the U.S. bought the land from Mexico in the 1800's. With the Faux News Alternative Universe of Reality, reg Tm, facts do not matter when it involves freedom. Yeh freedom or something Benghazi too!

And just think for all those folks here who love to follow the letter of the law and the Constitution good ole Cliven Bundy was given and offered chance after chance for 20 years to reduce his cattle herds, pay the back due grazing fees in arrears or take his cattle off of public lands. And this includes the Lake Mead Recreation area too! What a F en ass hole! During the whole 20 years fighting the U.S. government in the courts he continued to increase his herd size and scope/reach of the public land as if it belonged to him. And this included land that could barely sustain foliage with scant water sources. So screw those stupid turtles that have lived there for 100's of 1000's of years. It is all about freedom and fighting tyrany of big guberment. Oh and not paying for using the public land too.

So let us all give a big shout out to Freedom, reg TM, and those true American patriots who bravely put their wives and daughters out in front. Yep noting like human shields here folks. And women and children to top it off. Kind of makes one feel all giddy and proud of these loyal Americans. Well is that not what Klannity says when he is not trying to incite a "range war," from the safety of his New York studio?

Our heroes. Too bad all the other folks of the Nevada Cattleman's Association refuse to support that crook cheapskate Cliven Bundy. I mean he represents everything good in America. Well Shaun said so guys.

Peace

Pegasus
 
Most of us with our heads somewhere below the clouds recognize Libertopia can never exist, because if "big government" weren't there to "rule by force" and impose certain strictures on individuals the someone else would be.

So here's these guys basically demonstrating that. Want to use some land but don't own it? Turn up with a lot of guns and its yours... They're crying about how the government is oppressing them by trying to interfere in that patriotic and freedom-loving process.

Among other things, this is a demonstration of the kind of "freedom" you have in the magical land of Libertopia. The freedom to seize what doesn't belong to you by force without any nasty ol government trying to put you in jail for it.
 
"Those terrorists in Nevada"? I guess so, if this is your world view:

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Certainly Harry Reid has no shame in calling the Bundy's civil disobedience an act of domestic terroristism, even while his ideological doppelganger Obama is prosecuting Nidal Hasan's "Allah Akbar" murder of 13 Americans at Ft. Hood as "workplace violence".

Of course, all of this just more Harry Reid cynical theatrics, an extension of the divisive and inflammatory rhetoric that Obama (et. al.) has used quite effectively in his tenure at the oval office. Reid's employment, however, tends to flail randomly, as if he is in search of something more than on 'race' and the 'war on women' to gin the masses anger - having exhausted his venom on the Koch's he now focus's on a minor Nevada rancher.

Bundy, of course, is not a terrorist, but simple a man out of time. He is not 9-4, 5 day a week government functionary; he does not get 2 days a month sick leave, 2 days a month comp time, 12 holidays off a year, paid personal leave, 4 weeks vacation, or lavish fringe benefits. He does not get worker's comp for "work stress" or a slip and fall check for a mopped wet floor. If he crushes his fingers or hand in a ranch accident, or explodes a disk pitching hay, their won't be a worker's comp claim to rubber stamp and give him lifetime disability and/or job retraining. His whole life, and security is in the ranch.

Should we despise him? Bundy is not New York City, Portland Oregon, or Palo Alto; his peers are not those of dot.com's, UC Berkeley academia, nor of Hollywood. He and his peers are the rural men of the West - the families that settled the frontier and turned deserts into farms and ranches, who built towns and cities, who made and transformed the American west and built a life. They are what is left of old America, the desire to build, live, create, and to be left alone. For his kind, he has no more use for Washington DC officialdom than a bureaucrat has for those whose freedom and independence they are trying to extinguish.

True, Bundy is a man out of time, he does not appreciate that freedom is only by permission. Burn your trash in your backyard, where is your permit? Drive down the freeway with a flapping tarp over your grass clippings, here is a ticket for your trouble. Does your son reside in an RV in the back 40 acres? Another ticket for a zoning violation. Is your barn within five feet of a rural property line, then tear it down and move it. Has your well been inspected by the county? No? Here's another fine.

But Bundy and his roaming cows is not the real threat. His own lawlessness in disregarding Washington BLA is inconsequential, nothing like the ignoring of law by Washington; the IRS, the AP reporter monitoring, the provision of thousands of assault rifles to drug cartels, the NSA monitoring, the crony capitalist grants, the arbitrary changes to ACA legal requirements, etc. Bundy's 'terrorism' would be laughable if it were not so tragic - it is one man's refusal to be 'on the right side' of someone else's history.

Bundy is the spirit of Jack Burns, in The Brave are the Lonely - a man who does not care if it is the Twenty-first century...a man who does not make concessions to Big Government and corrupt politicians. A man who lives by what is right, and who has the support of a handful of strangers who arrived with rifles - men who are modern Shanes, men willing to protect a fellow man of principle.

And Harry Reid, the leader of the Senate? He rages about a nobody only because Bundy has something denied Reid for a lifetime - the freely given respect and admiration of the real men of the West.
 
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Bundy, of course, is not a terrorist, but simple a man out of time.

No, he's a criminal. He's deliberately and flagrantly violating the law. He owes over a million dollars in back taxes. Usually that will wind you in hot water (if you're white) or in prison if you're not (ask Wesley Snipes how his stand against the government turned out).

Romanticize him all you want. Go down there and kiss his boots if it will make you feel better, but the man is a crook.
 
No, he's a criminal. He's deliberately and flagrantly violating the law. He owes over a million dollars in back taxes. Usually that will wind you in hot water (if you're white) or in prison if you're not (ask Wesley Snipes how his stand against the government turned out).

Romanticize him all you want. Go down there and kiss his boots if it will make you feel better, but the man is a crook.

Yes, but he's white and rich and conservative, which means he doesn't have to follow the law if he doesn't feel like it, and we are oppressing him if we ask him to. Remember: following the law is for poor people and minorities. Holding anyone else responsible for anything is persecution, at least to those from the Party Of Personal Responsibility.
 
Certainly Harry Reid has no shame in calling the Bundy's civil disobedience an act of domestic terroristism, even while his ideological doppelganger Obama is prosecuting Nidal Hasan's "Allah Akbar" murder of 13 Americans at Ft. Hood as "workplace violence".
That someone else, somewhere else, might be doing something worse, is the least compelling defense of law-breaking in history.
Of course, all of this just more Harry Reid cynical theatrics, an extension of the divisive and inflammatory rhetoric that Obama (et. al.) has used quite effectively in his tenure at the oval office. Reid's employment, however, tends to flail randomly, as if he is in search of something more than on 'race' and the 'war on women' to gin the masses anger - having exhausted his venom on the Koch's he now focus's on a minor Nevada rancher.
Bundy's actions are not dependant for their morality nor their lawfulness on the character of those who speak out against them. He is in the wrong; and he would still be in the wrong even if Adolf Hitler and Joe Stalin were to say how wrong he is.

We get that you don't like Harry Reid or Barack Obama; what is missing is a reason why your distaste for them makes them wrong, or Bundy right.
Bundy, of course, is not a terrorist,
No, he is just someone who uses the threat of violence to get his way :rolleyesa:
but simple a man out of time.
There was never a time when threatening Federal agents with deadly force was acceptable. Perhaps people might have gotten away with it for a time, back in the day; but it was never tolerated or condoned by the general public, nor by the governments they elected.
He is not 9-4, 5 day a week government functionary; he does not get 2 days a month sick leave, 2 days a month comp time, 12 holidays off a year, paid personal leave, 4 weeks vacation, or lavish fringe benefits. He does not get worker's comp for "work stress" or a slip and fall check for a mopped wet floor. If he crushes his fingers or hand in a ranch accident, or explodes a disk pitching hay, their won't be a worker's comp claim to rubber stamp and give him lifetime disability and/or job retraining. His whole life, and security is in the ranch.
This laundry list of things he isn't is not a defense of his actions; No doubt he doesn't watch gerbil porn, eat axle grease, or carve mountains in the shape of dead presidents either; but it isn't what he doesn't do that is at issue here. He DOES illegally use land he doesn't own; he DID threaten federal agents with deadly force. I couldn't care less if he doesn't get free tickets to Broadway shows, and doesn't eat marmalade directly off the spoon; those things are completely irrelevant.
Should we despise him?
Yes. Yes, we should.
Bundy is not New York City, Portland Oregon, or Palo Alto;
Nor am I. I am not even Paris, Texas; Powercable, Nebraska; or Ouagadougou, Birkina Faso. Should you feel a yearning pity for me as a result? Does my failure to be one of several towns make me a hero of yours?
his peers are not those of dot.com's, UC Berkeley academia, nor of Hollywood.
Thank you for pointing this out, Captain Obvious. But how do these facts raise him above the law?
He and his peers are the rural men of the West - the families that settled the frontier and turned deserts into farms and ranches, who built towns and cities, who made and transformed the American west and built a life.
Or rather, they are the grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and great-great-grandchildren of those people. My Great-great-grandad was a Station Master, but that doesn't give me the right to set train timetables, or to boss porters and signalmen around.
They are what is left of old America, the desire to build, live, create, and to be left alone.
No, they are not; but even if they were, being old (or out of date) does not mean the same as being right. Back in the good old days, you could own some slaves, and you could stake a claim to vacant land in the west; Today you can't. And you haven't been allowed to do either within Mr Bundy's lifetime, so he has no excuse for behaving like it is still allowed.
For his kind, he has no more use for Washington DC officialdom than a bureaucrat has for those whose freedom and independence they are trying to extinguish.
If he doesn't like America, he is free to leave. If he doesn't like the government, he can vote against them; he can campaign against them; he can write nasty letters to his Congressman; he can protest in accordance with his constitutional rights. But he can't unilaterally overrule the law; that is not and never has been tolerated. If you don't like the law, you can work to get it changed, but you are not allowed to ignore it.
True, Bundy is a man out of time,
What, was he born in 1680?
he does not appreciate that freedom is only by permission.
No, freedom is not 'only by permission'; freedom merely includes the freedom of others not to be imposed upon by your selfishness.
Burn your trash in your backyard, where is your permit?
What right do you have to smoke your neighbour out? By issuing permits, the right to burn off and the right to fresh air are balanced, so that no one bully can impose himself on other people.
Drive down the freeway with a flapping tarp over your grass clippings, here is a ticket for your trouble.
The people who live near the freeway don't have a right to expect that your trash won't end up in their backyards, homes, waterways, streets, etc.?
Does your son reside in an RV in the back 40 acres? Another ticket for a zoning violation.
And so there should be; the public have a right not to get Cholera or Dysentery because your RV has inadequate plumbing; if you have adequate facilities for public health, then getting zoning shouldn't be too hard.
Is your barn within five feet of a rural property line, then tear it down and move it. Has your well been inspected by the county? No? Here's another fine.
The law is intended to protect the majority. If you don't like it, and most of your neighbours can be persuaded to support you, you can get it changed. But you are not allowed to ignore it with impunity; and you are not allowed to threaten deadly force against people who's job it is to enforce compliance with the law.
But Bundy and his roaming cows is not the real threat.
No; his hooray mates with the itchy trigger-fingers are the real threat.
His own lawlessness in disregarding Washington BLA is inconsequential,
You have so far completely failed to demonstrate this
nothing like the ignoring of law by Washington; the IRS, the AP reporter monitoring, the provision of thousands of assault rifles to drug cartels, the NSA monitoring, the crony capitalist grants, the arbitrary changes to ACA legal requirements, etc.
That someone else, somewhere else, might be doing something worse, is the least compelling defense of law-breaking in history.
Bundy's 'terrorism' would be laughable if it were not so tragic - it is one man's refusal to be 'on the right side' of someone else's history.
It is both laughable and tragic; I would add vile and dangerous to that list, just for starters.
Bundy is the spirit of Jack Burns, in The Brave are the Lonely - a man who does not care if it is the Twenty-first century...
As my Gran used to say, "Don't care was made to care". Bundy is not some mythic hero; he's more like a spoilt child, unable to accept that his freedom does not include the right to impinge on the freedom of others.
a man who does not make concessions to Big Government and corrupt politicians. A man who lives by what is right,
Wait, what? In what sense is illegally using somebody else's property for one's own financial gain 'right'?
and who has the support of a handful of strangers who arrived with rifles - men who are modern Shanes, men willing to protect a fellow man of principle.

And Harry Reid, the leader of the Senate? He rages about a nobody only because Bundy has something denied Reid for a lifetime - the freely given respect and admiration of the real men of the West.

Oh, come on; if you are going to try poetry, you could at least write about a man from Nantucket.

Or you could go with something by Mick Jagger: "Well he can't be a man 'cause he doesn't smoke, the same cigarettes as me". Welcome to Marlboro Country. Where the men are men, and the glory is a fiction created by Hollywood and Madison Avenue.
 
That someone else, somewhere else, might be doing something worse, is the least compelling defense of law-breaking in history. Bundy's actions are not dependant for their morality nor their lawfulness on the character of those who speak out against them...

.No, he is just someone who uses the threat of violence to get his way :rolleyesa:There was never a time when threatening Federal agents with deadly force was acceptable.

...This laundry list of things he isn't is not a defense of his actions;... but it isn't what he doesn't do that is at issue here. He DOES illegally use land he doesn't own; he DID threaten federal agents with deadly force.

...Thank you for pointing this out, Captain Obvious. But how do these facts raise him above the law?

... Back in the good old days, you could own some slaves, and you could stake a claim to vacant land in the west;

...If he doesn't like America, he is free to leave. If he doesn't like the government, he can vote against them; he can campaign against them; he can write nasty letters to his Congressman; he can protest in accordance with his constitutional rights. But he can't unilaterally overrule the law; that is not and never has been tolerated.

If you don't like the law, you can work to get it changed, but you are not allowed to ignore it.What, was he born in 1680? No, freedom is not 'only by permission'; freedom merely includes the freedom of others not to be imposed upon by your selfishness.What right do you have to smoke your neighbour out? By issuing permits, the right to burn off and the right to fresh air are balanced, so that no one bully can impose himself on other people.The people who live near the freeway don't have a right to expect that your trash won't end up in their backyards, homes, waterways, streets, etc.?And so there should be; the public have a right not to get Cholera or Dysentery because your RV has inadequate plumbing; if you have adequate facilities for public health, then getting zoning shouldn't be too hard.

...You have so far completely failed to demonstrate thisThat someone else, somewhere else, might be doing something worse, is the least compelling defense of law-breaking in history. It is both laughable and tragic;...Oh, come on; if you are going to try poetry, you could at least write about a man from Nantucket.

Or you could go with something by Mick Jagger: "Well he can't be a man 'cause he doesn't smoke, the same cigarettes as me". Welcome to Marlboro Country. Where the men are men, and the glory is a fiction created by Hollywood and Madison Avenue.

Your boiling mad ranting against Mr. Bundy is far out of proportion to his actions, so much so it is a curiosity. Clearly Cliven Bundy, a here to fore unknown rancher in a corner of the great Nevada wasteland, has struck a nerve on the authoritarian left, replacing Brendon Eich as their latest favorite citizen target. Apparently they found a rancher who is guilty misdemeanor trespass on desert scrub and has a civil judgment against him. So much to their satisfaction, two hundred armed BLM agents, swat teams, armored vehicles, and helicopters are hurled into rural Nevada to enforce a violation worthy of a ticket, a court date and a fine. Oh my.

Thankfully he was not suspected of a felony drunk driving, no doubt the 101st air mobile division would have parachuted in for the arrest.

Of course, this unhinged rage on the left over conservative personalities is not new. Bush, Rove, Cheney, Limbaugh and others well known examples. And we are familiar with the extreme rants, such as Sara Bernhardt's call for the rape of Sarah Palin. What is newer, however, is the lefts growing obsession and new delight in finding obscure or anonymous individuals to demonize; to find a person in the news and "pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it" as red meat for the wolves. The obscure target becomes vessel that holds all the demonizing myths of the left, be it a Sgt. James Crowley, Brendon Eich, or a Cliven Bundy. Someone who has transgressed by being on the 'wrong side of history'.

The foaming 'law and order' absolutism over Mr. Bundy and the desert tortoise is more than unbalanced, it is very unhealthy.
 
Of course, this unhinged rage on the left over conservative personalities is not new. Bush, Rove, Cheney, Limbaugh and others well known examples.

This whole "it is unhinged rage on the left" over Bundy might hold some water if it wasn't for the fact that his "struggle" to violate federal law has spanned both Democratic and Republican administrations.
 
I think all this "real men of the west" bullshit is making me a little ill in the stomach. Bundy is a well funded pilferer of the commons whose crookedly appropriated watering hole is drying up. I feel no sympathy for him and hope they throw the book at him and get his fucking cattle off public land. I think he deserves jail time for threatening violence against federal officers. Where do we get off giving men like him a pass? How did it happen? We have a federal bureaucracy that does not believe in the cause it was formed to support...protection of the commons. Cattle do environmental damage.

Perhaps some of the worst damage he has done is to convince many people to believe he is in the right by appealing to the old west...as if there were some kind of grand code of the old west....which really never existed at all. If there was a code at all it was one of lawlessness and rule by threat of violence. We really have no room in today's world for this type of antics. Poor people who get caught avoiding payment of taxes or other monies due the government can GO TO JAIL.
That, in my opinion is where Bundy belongs. He has merely formed a kind of cowboy Mafia and is an outlaw.
 
They will never put the thief Bundy in prison, nor shoot/taze/mace his ass as they would have anyone else pulling his stunts. One, he's an old white male conservative. Two, that would make him a faux-martyr to other old white male conservatives (& the brainless women they would shove to the front of a gun fight)

My hope is that they lien everything the man owns and take it all.
 
Certainly Harry Reid has no shame in calling the Bundy's civil disobedience an act of domestic terroristism,

I consider the threat of killing by his Sovereign Citizen militia supporters, who are itching for another Ruby Ridge/Branch Davidian Compound, domestic terrorism. Timothy Mc Veigh and Terry Nichols are these folk's heroes. They would be more than willing to kill you without a thought for their ideology. Hell, they even wanted to position women in front so television news would show them being killed in the belief that it would spark some sort of rising against our legally elected government they call ZOG. (Zionist Occupation Government.)

Max, these are not the people you want to idolize.

Bundy, of course, is not a terrorist, but simple a man out of time. He is not 9-4, 5 day a week government functionary; he does not get 2 days...
You do know he is a millionaire with capable ranch hands and doesn't have to do a lick of work? He also probably has health insurance. He is not a man "out of time" but a man very much in modern times. Where you are pulling this bullshit from is a mystery.

Should we despise him? Bundy is not New York City, Portland Oregon, or Palo Alto; his peers are not those of dot.com's, UC Berkeley academia, nor of Hollywood. He and his peers are the rural men of the West - the families that settled the frontier and turned deserts into farms and ranches, who built towns and cities, who made and transformed the American west and built a life. They are what is left of old America, the desire to build, live, create, and to be left alone. For his kind, he has no more use for Washington DC officialdom than a bureaucrat has for those whose freedom and independence they are trying to extinguish.
Bundy did not build it, he inherited it. Nobody is trying to destroy his way of life or extinguish his freedom. He has been damaging land and property that does not belong to him and to this point the law has been relatively light on him. Believe me, when the hammer of justice falls, which it now will, it will not be a blaze of glory but swift and anticlimactic, like it was with the last Sovereign Citizen patsy Ed Brown.

Bundy's 'terrorism' would be laughable if it were not so tragic - it is one man's refusal to be 'on the right side' of someone else's history.
Unfortunately for your naive and misguided romance, Bundy has been joined by a very dangerous group that has threatened to kill on his behalf. This is a group that has maimed and killed in the past and caused pain and suffering to thousands of innocents, they don't care about Bundy as long as his cause can further theirs. Their side of history is one of warlord sherifs with absolute power. A society of men wielding arbitrary justice, and not the rule of law.

Bundy is the spirit of Jack Burns, in The Brave are the Lonely
- the freely given respect and admiration of the real men of the West.

You do know that that West you romanticize never existed?
You do know the difference between a movie and reality, history and legend?
 
...Burn your trash in your backyard, where is your permit? Drive down the freeway with a flapping tarp over your grass clippings, here is a ticket for your trouble. Does your son reside in an RV in the back 40 acres? Another ticket for a zoning violation. Is your barn within five feet of a rural property line, then tear it down and move it. Has your well been inspected by the county? No? Here's another fine...

Man, the inability of rightists to talk about the thing they're talking about is downright pathological.
 
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