Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a common Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone (who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" means the tomb) knows of any writing that shows that a phrase stating a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights?
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Three Days and Three Nights?
- Thread starter rstrats
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Atheos
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Even if one can claim that the Jewish idiom allowed one to call any portion of a day "the entire day" (something I've never seen any evidence of by the way) that doesn't explain the explicit language, "Three days and three nights." Why separate the nights from the days if the nights aren't actually included? The idea is idiotic from the get-go and makes even less sense when use of such language would inevitably cause nothing but confusion and apology.
Do these people seriously believe that a Jewish individual who quickly took a single sip of wine could be accused of "drinking wine all day and all night?" It is a preposterous argument and deserves all the mockery sensible people can hurl at it.
Do these people seriously believe that a Jewish individual who quickly took a single sip of wine could be accused of "drinking wine all day and all night?" It is a preposterous argument and deserves all the mockery sensible people can hurl at it.
dockeen
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Now, would the criteria of embarrassment mean that this all MUST be true then? 
ramoss
Member
Begging your pardon, but in the Hebrew, you have to not only look at the tense of the noun, but also the tense of the verb after it. If the tense of the noun is plural, and the tense of the verb after it is singular, you have a magnfication of the term in importance, not in number. The term 'elohim' (or lord) was used for Moses when he was appointed Lord over Aaron. That does not mean there were more than one Moses.. but his importance over Aaron was stressed.
Now, there are places in Genesis where Elohim is indeed plural, and then there are places where it is magnified and singular. You have to look and understand the original Hebrew to understand which is which (Or look at a good Jewish commentary, and see how they try to rationalize the passages that Elohim is plural).
Now, there are places in Genesis where Elohim is indeed plural, and then there are places where it is magnified and singular. You have to look and understand the original Hebrew to understand which is which (Or look at a good Jewish commentary, and see how they try to rationalize the passages that Elohim is plural).
Numbers in the bible had colloquial and mystical-esoteric meanings.
Someone posted in the past in the bible' 40 days' meant 'a while'.
It rained 40 days, it rained a while.
JC fasted in the desert or 40 days, hewent walkabout for a while.
Someone posted in the past in the bible' 40 days' meant 'a while'.
It rained 40 days, it rained a while.
JC fasted in the desert or 40 days, hewent walkabout for a while.
Sheshbazzar
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I will suggest that the Crucifixion story is an elaborate construct and lead in, to the resolving a ancient heated Jewish sectarian controversy over the construction and ordering of the Biblical calendar and the ascertaining of the 'proper' date of Passover, Feast of Unleavened, and the annual beginning date and day of the Fifty day count to The Feast of Weeks (Pentecost).
If you are well informed on these matters, you will be aware that 'Christianity' and Judaism hold two quite divergent views on how the count to 'The Feast of Weeks' (Pentecost) is calculated, and upon which day of the month and of the week it must begin.
The 'clue' or trick to understanding the entire matter lies in deriving and recognizing a consistent objective and Standard method of locating the first day of the first month (Exodus 12:2), and the beginning of the first hour of that first day of the first month. And from that point the sequence of hours, days, days of the week cycle, throughout that 'First month', and from the beginning of the beginning hour to the end of the ending hour of the fifty day count of Pentecost'.
The NT references to 'the third hour', the sixth hour', 'the ninth hour' are not random, these are precise place markers in the sequence of hours of the entire period calculable from the first hour of the year.
Talk, and tossing out verses only serves to support sectarian claims and dogmas that confuse the matter.
One needs to literally map it out day by day and hour by hour, 'watch' by 'watch', from the beginning of The First Month (sometimes to the precision of noting that it was the beginning, middle or ending of a particular hour when an alleged NT event took place.)
There is so much that you can learn in undertaking this exercise. Things that I could tell you, (and generate heated arguments and denials) but you can only learn and internalize the FACTS by doing the actual work yourself. Then comparing your results with the 'traditions' that Judaism and Christianity teach (usually quite vaguely.)
Do this, as I did over thirty years ago and you will know for certain what is wrong or being misrepresented in each religious 'tradition'.
Of course then either religion will despise you for not following their 'traditions' and 'interpretations'.
But as the story's protagonist said; "The truth will set you free". Your time, your chance to investigate this matter for yourself,... or not, your choice alone.
I can lead you to the water, and can point out that it is there, but I cannot force anyone to drink thereof.
If you are well informed on these matters, you will be aware that 'Christianity' and Judaism hold two quite divergent views on how the count to 'The Feast of Weeks' (Pentecost) is calculated, and upon which day of the month and of the week it must begin.
The 'clue' or trick to understanding the entire matter lies in deriving and recognizing a consistent objective and Standard method of locating the first day of the first month (Exodus 12:2), and the beginning of the first hour of that first day of the first month. And from that point the sequence of hours, days, days of the week cycle, throughout that 'First month', and from the beginning of the beginning hour to the end of the ending hour of the fifty day count of Pentecost'.
The NT references to 'the third hour', the sixth hour', 'the ninth hour' are not random, these are precise place markers in the sequence of hours of the entire period calculable from the first hour of the year.
Talk, and tossing out verses only serves to support sectarian claims and dogmas that confuse the matter.
One needs to literally map it out day by day and hour by hour, 'watch' by 'watch', from the beginning of The First Month (sometimes to the precision of noting that it was the beginning, middle or ending of a particular hour when an alleged NT event took place.)
There is so much that you can learn in undertaking this exercise. Things that I could tell you, (and generate heated arguments and denials) but you can only learn and internalize the FACTS by doing the actual work yourself. Then comparing your results with the 'traditions' that Judaism and Christianity teach (usually quite vaguely.)
Do this, as I did over thirty years ago and you will know for certain what is wrong or being misrepresented in each religious 'tradition'.
Of course then either religion will despise you for not following their 'traditions' and 'interpretations'.
But as the story's protagonist said; "The truth will set you free". Your time, your chance to investigate this matter for yourself,... or not, your choice alone.
I can lead you to the water, and can point out that it is there, but I cannot force anyone to drink thereof.
Sheshbazzar
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As arguments concerning the Biblical calendar, and the timing of The Feats had been long and acrimonious, the compositors of the NT were much more subtle than coming right out and stating these things.
Their position and their views survive within the Tanakh and are integral elements of The NT texts.
One needs to carefully examine these ancient texts (collectively 'The Bible') and carefully arrange these things in their proper order and sequence. There is no external authoritative and unbiased writing that one can resort to, to replace the need to 'Search The Scriptures' and 'prove all things'.
Not really that difficult. The only really difficult part is in NOT allowing external 'religious traditions' opinions, writings, or 'authoritative sources' on religion, influence ones readings or commitment to personally searching out and carefully organizing this Biblical material in carefully documented chronological sequence.
What (allegedly) took place in the NT, was not a collection of random events, but the Holy Days and religious Feasts observed (and their 'events') exactly tracked with the timing of the Feasts of Yahweh as they are delineated within the Tanaka. ('OT')
For a beginning one may obtain a sheaf of blank paper, a hundred sheets will do for a start.
Allow one page for a day, numbering one through one hundred. This will represent the first one hundred days of the year.
Now carefully go through the Bible writing down on its proper sheet (sequential date), what happened on that date (verse numbers will do)
Be very careful with the NT references NOT to assume that what you have been told by Christian 'traditions' all of your life, are accurate to the named weekdays most commonly assigned to them.
There is far more to be found, than what meets an uncritical eye, or any superficial reading.
Their position and their views survive within the Tanakh and are integral elements of The NT texts.
One needs to carefully examine these ancient texts (collectively 'The Bible') and carefully arrange these things in their proper order and sequence. There is no external authoritative and unbiased writing that one can resort to, to replace the need to 'Search The Scriptures' and 'prove all things'.
Not really that difficult. The only really difficult part is in NOT allowing external 'religious traditions' opinions, writings, or 'authoritative sources' on religion, influence ones readings or commitment to personally searching out and carefully organizing this Biblical material in carefully documented chronological sequence.
What (allegedly) took place in the NT, was not a collection of random events, but the Holy Days and religious Feasts observed (and their 'events') exactly tracked with the timing of the Feasts of Yahweh as they are delineated within the Tanaka. ('OT')
For a beginning one may obtain a sheaf of blank paper, a hundred sheets will do for a start.
Allow one page for a day, numbering one through one hundred. This will represent the first one hundred days of the year.
Now carefully go through the Bible writing down on its proper sheet (sequential date), what happened on that date (verse numbers will do)
Be very careful with the NT references NOT to assume that what you have been told by Christian 'traditions' all of your life, are accurate to the named weekdays most commonly assigned to them.
There is far more to be found, than what meets an uncritical eye, or any superficial reading.
Since it has been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that Matthew 12:40 is using commom idiomatic language, may know of some writing.
Sheshbazzar
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As a week has only seven days, there are only seven possible sequences of weekdays from the first day of the first month.
Of the seven, only one fits to the sequence and timing of the Bibles alleged events.
'midnight' of the fourteenth day of the first month (Ex 12:29 & 12:2) can only be at a certain hour in each and every year, likewise the time period that comprises 'the tenth day of this month' (Ex 12:3) and 'the fifteenth day' (Ex 15:1)
The Jews misunderstood, and substituted their 'traditions'. The christians came along latter, and have done the same.
Go figure.
Of the seven, only one fits to the sequence and timing of the Bibles alleged events.
'midnight' of the fourteenth day of the first month (Ex 12:29 & 12:2) can only be at a certain hour in each and every year, likewise the time period that comprises 'the tenth day of this month' (Ex 12:3) and 'the fifteenth day' (Ex 15:1)
The Jews misunderstood, and substituted their 'traditions'. The christians came along latter, and have done the same.
Go figure.
Sheshbazzar, I cannot tell if you are confirming or refuting the question in the OP - that first century writings or any previous source like the bible itself,
You seem to be saying that the answer is there, and that you know it, but that you won't tell. I'm not sure why you won't tell.
Can your extensive knowledge of the exact hours and day produce an opinion as to whether the phrase "3 days and three nights" can historically include a time that includes just two dark periods, only one noon time and a dinner and a dawn?
In other words, imagine the Jewish Tour group advertising their cruise, "3 days and 3 nights! You will get to use your bed only twice, we will serve only 2 dinners, one breakfast and one lunch and you need to leave at dawn on the final day," and not being sued?
shows that a phrase stating a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights?
You seem to be saying that the answer is there, and that you know it, but that you won't tell. I'm not sure why you won't tell.
Can your extensive knowledge of the exact hours and day produce an opinion as to whether the phrase "3 days and three nights" can historically include a time that includes just two dark periods, only one noon time and a dinner and a dawn?
In other words, imagine the Jewish Tour group advertising their cruise, "3 days and 3 nights! You will get to use your bed only twice, we will serve only 2 dinners, one breakfast and one lunch and you need to leave at dawn on the final day," and not being sued?
Sheshbazzar
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So you are aware of problems with the popular apologetic 'explanation'.
There are a set of basic Biblical ethical injunctions regarding the measuring of anything and everything that men would undertake to measure.
To perform an action 'on the tenth day of the first month' requires that it not be commenced before the accounting of and passing of two hundred sixteen hours. And be completed before the end of the two hundred fortieth hour.
Only that twenty four hour period extending from the beginning of the two hundred seventeenth hour until the ending of the two hundred fortieth hour comprises "the tenth day of the first month". Not one hour, not one minute, not one second more.
The Watchers stand in the watches, accounting the times, the time, and the halfs of time.
How many halfs do you account there to be in three and a half shekels? ounces? weeks?
And which one of those halves is measured as greater or lesser than any other?
Consider Lev 19:35-36, Deut 25:13-16, Acts 27:28;
Are you able to fathom the value of the measure, its divisions into Standard Measuring Units, the sum of the small units, and measure the difference betwixt the larger and the lesser?
Will you have me tell you the deep things, and not search them out for yourself?
To do so would only serve to deprive you of that measure of honor that an astute student earns.
I do not hand out answers, but labor to provoke others to think rationally, and to employ just balances and equal and honest measures.
Sheshbazzar, the Gileadite Watchman
There are a set of basic Biblical ethical injunctions regarding the measuring of anything and everything that men would undertake to measure.
To perform an action 'on the tenth day of the first month' requires that it not be commenced before the accounting of and passing of two hundred sixteen hours. And be completed before the end of the two hundred fortieth hour.
Only that twenty four hour period extending from the beginning of the two hundred seventeenth hour until the ending of the two hundred fortieth hour comprises "the tenth day of the first month". Not one hour, not one minute, not one second more.
The Watchers stand in the watches, accounting the times, the time, and the halfs of time.
How many halfs do you account there to be in three and a half shekels? ounces? weeks?
And which one of those halves is measured as greater or lesser than any other?
Consider Lev 19:35-36, Deut 25:13-16, Acts 27:28;
Are you able to fathom the value of the measure, its divisions into Standard Measuring Units, the sum of the small units, and measure the difference betwixt the larger and the lesser?
Will you have me tell you the deep things, and not search them out for yourself?
To do so would only serve to deprive you of that measure of honor that an astute student earns.
I do not hand out answers, but labor to provoke others to think rationally, and to employ just balances and equal and honest measures.
Sheshbazzar, the Gileadite Watchman