Time Travel... the fly in the ointment

[Jimmy Higgins]

For whatever reason, I was thinking about time travel. You hear about time travel, going from one time to another, but it occurred to me about one other thing, which I don't recall ever hearing about in a tv program. Time and space are linked, no?

So if one were to go back in time, wouldn't they be limited to when the position they are currently in, is relatively the same? IE, if you go back in time from your position, to six months ago, aren't you royally fucked as Earth is located on the other side of the sun? Heck, wouldn't just a minute put you in great danger as well?

Your issue is also your solution... If time and space are one fabric, then moving through time would also move you through space. Problem solved.

My concern was that your position relative to the Earth was a concern. Go back in time 6 months and you are still in the same position, but the Earth is on the other side of the sun.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I so wish I understood physics better.

For me, Star Trek level sci-fi suffices.

Time travel? All you have to do is swoosh your ship around a star and you're back 3 centuries. Just watch out for the flying scupltures of your shipmates and psychedelic swirls of color. Need to come back to your time? Swoosh your ship around the same star in the opposite direction!

See? Sciencing is easy.

Theta radiation destroys organic matter at the subatomic level.

But in all honesty, most didn't see much of anything good in Nemesis.

 

[bilby]

For me, Star Trek level sci-fi suffices.

Time travel? All you have to do is swoosh your ship around a star and you're back 3 centuries. Just watch out for the flying scupltures of your shipmates and psychedelic swirls of color. Need to come back to your time? Swoosh your ship around the same star in the opposite direction!

See? Sciencing is easy.

Theta radiation destroys organic matter at the subatomic level.

But in all honesty, most didn't see much of anything good in Nemesis.

If theta radiation induces the rapid decay of Carbon-12, then that bit of technobabble would be a pretty accurate statement.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Theta radiation destroys organic matter at the subatomic level.

But in all honesty, most didn't see much of anything good in Nemesis.

If theta radiation induces the rapid decay of Carbon-12, then that bit of technobabble would be a pretty accurate statement.

But how could it do so at the subatomic level?

 

[skepticalbip]

If theta radiation induces the rapid decay of Carbon-12, then that bit of technobabble would be a pretty accurate statement.

But how could it do so at the subatomic level?

That should be obvious. The energy level of Theta radiation is precisely the level required to displace one of the protons in a six-proton bound nucleus. So a Theta photon knocks out one of the six protons in the carbon nucleus converting the atom into Boron and emitting a proton, a neutron, and an electron in the process. A sufficiently intense Theta ray would destroy all Carbon in its path and, obviously, any Carbon chains would disintegrate.

 

[bilby]

But how could it do so at the subatomic level?

That should be obvious. The energy level of Theta radiation is precisely the level required to displace one of the protons in a six-proton bound nucleus. So a Theta photon knocks out one of the six protons in the carbon nucleus converting the atom into Boron and emitting a proton, a neutron, and an electron in the process. A sufficiently intense Theta ray would destroy all Carbon in its path and, obviously, any Carbon chains would disintegrate.

Yay, science!

 

[Shadowy Man]

And what happens to the structural integrity of steel structures when you remove all the carbon?

 

[bilby]

And what happens to the structural integrity of steel structures when you remove all the carbon?

Well, obviously Iron is an effective barrier to theta radiation, so the question doesn't arise.

Do you even science, bro?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But how could it do so at the subatomic level?

That should be obvious. The energy level of Theta radiation is precisely the level required to displace one of the protons in a six-proton bound nucleus. So a Theta photon knocks out one of the six protons in the carbon nucleus converting the atom into Boron and emitting a proton, a neutron, and an electron in the process. A sufficiently intense Theta ray would destroy all Carbon in its path and, obviously, any Carbon chains would disintegrate.

That isn't even possible! The resulting reaction would create negatively charged ionic Helium gas which repels theta radiation.

 

[skepticalbip]

Not a fly in the ointment.

The fly in the bowl of flies.

To return to the past implies the past is out there somewhere, every instant of it, just sitting there somehow waiting so that it can be returned to.

To return to the past is to bring matter that already existed in the past to the past. To create matter or perform some amazing magic with matter in other words.

It is a human fantasy and there is no physics to describe moving to the past.

What can we do to objects like humans?

We can apply forces to them or to something that contains them.

What force can we apply to push an object towards the past?

We don't need a new force. We can just turn the force that is pushing us towards the future 180 degrees to push us in the opposite direction.

 

[Bronzeage]

Not a fly in the ointment.

The fly in the bowl of flies.

To return to the past implies the past is out there somewhere, every instant of it, just sitting there somehow waiting so that it can be returned to.

To return to the past is to bring matter that already existed in the past to the past. To create matter or perform some amazing magic with matter in other words.

It is a human fantasy and there is no physics to describe moving to the past.

What can we do to objects like humans?

We can apply forces to them or to something that contains them.

What force can we apply to push an object towards the past?

We don't need a new force. We can just turn the force that is pushing us towards the future 180 degrees to push us in the opposite direction.

That makes it sound easy. Is there anything to indicate that our path into the past, would retrace the steps of our path into the future?

If not, all we would accomplish would be a different future path, not time travel into the past.

 

[skepticalbip]

We don't need a new force. We can just turn the force that is pushing us towards the future 180 degrees to push us in the opposite direction.

That makes it sound easy. Is there anything to indicate that our path into the past, would retrace the steps of our path into the future?

If not, all we would accomplish would be a different future path, not time travel into the past.

Hey man! Just like a space ship, ya gotta steer your time ship or you could end up somewhere (sometime) you don't want to be.

 

[braces_for_impact]

I think we've stumbled upon why time travelers aren't visiting us. Sure we can travel back, but everything is in a different position when we arrive, resulting in everything from appearing in outer space to occupying the same space as solid objects to stabbing your toe. The only solution? Micro hops. By the time you make that many hops, you're effectively limited by the lifespan of the time traveler. So, stop spending money on this and send it to me. I have bills to pay. Thank you.

 

[Bronzeage]

That makes it sound easy. Is there anything to indicate that our path into the past, would retrace the steps of our path into the future?

If not, all we would accomplish would be a different future path, not time travel into the past.

Hey man! Just like a space ship, ya gotta steer your time ship or you could end up somewhere (sometime) you don't want to be.

Instantaneous travel to any point in space or time is easy on the imagination. We do it all the time in dreams and for all practical purposes, can't tell the difference, at least until we wake up.

"Continuous path" reverse time travel opens up all kinds of horrors, especially when we realize we are walking backwards toward a men's room.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

BTW, not all means of time travel have this problem.

Robert L. Forward, Timemaster has time travel via wormhole. The wormholes are physical objects in space, moving them around does not change the linkage between them. (In fact, when created they are not time travel devices at all--the time travel aspect comes from hauling one end around at relativistic velocity.)

While there is a certain amount of handwaving to create the basic technology he was a hard-science author and apart from the negative matter & wormholes I can't find any scientific flaws. (And, yes, that includes the stardrive he uses to haul them around.)

 

[Bronzeage]

BTW, not all means of time travel have this problem.

Robert L. Forward, Timemaster has time travel via wormhole. The wormholes are physical objects in space, moving them around does not change the linkage between them. (In fact, when created they are not time travel devices at all--the time travel aspect comes from hauling one end around at relativistic velocity.)

While there is a certain amount of handwaving to create the basic technology he was a hard-science author and apart from the negative matter & wormholes I can't find any scientific flaws. (And, yes, that includes the stardrive he uses to haul them around.)

Time travel would have to be hop, skip and jump, where we land in some point in time and immediately begin moving forward in time, or no one would do it.

 

[bilby]

Not a fly in the ointment.

The fly in the bowl of flies.

To return to the past implies the past is out there somewhere, every instant of it, just sitting there somehow waiting so that it can be returned to.

To return to the past is to bring matter that already existed in the past to the past. To create matter or perform some amazing magic with matter in other words.

It is a human fantasy and there is no physics to describe moving to the past.

What can we do to objects like humans?

We can apply forces to them or to something that contains them.

What force can we apply to push an object towards the past?

We don't need a new force. We can just turn the force that is pushing us towards the future 180 degrees to push us in the opposite direction.

The force that is pushing us towards the future at a constant rate is just like the force that pushes the solar system along at a constant rate - nonexistent.

Isaac Newton would be turning in his grave (except that a body at rest remains at rest until acted upon by a force).

 

[Loren Pechtel]

BTW, not all means of time travel have this problem.

Robert L. Forward, Timemaster has time travel via wormhole. The wormholes are physical objects in space, moving them around does not change the linkage between them. (In fact, when created they are not time travel devices at all--the time travel aspect comes from hauling one end around at relativistic velocity.)

While there is a certain amount of handwaving to create the basic technology he was a hard-science author and apart from the negative matter & wormholes I can't find any scientific flaws. (And, yes, that includes the stardrive he uses to haul them around.)

Time travel would have to be hop, skip and jump, where we land in some point in time and immediately begin moving forward in time, or no one would do it.

 

[Bronzeage]

Time travel would have to be hop, skip and jump, where we land in some point in time and immediately begin moving forward in time, or no one would do it.

We are familiar with the science fiction model of time travel. Dr Who sets the coordinates of the Tardis and in a few seconds, he is someplace else in the universe, in some other point in time. It's effortless.

Imagine you had a time traveling car, or airplane. You can go backwards in time, but to go back an hour, you have to drive an hour. Would it be really worth it.

 

[skepticalbip]

We don't need a new force. We can just turn the force that is pushing us towards the future 180 degrees to push us in the opposite direction.

The force that is pushing us towards the future at a constant rate is just like the force that pushes the solar system along at a constant rate - nonexistent.

Isaac Newton would be turning in his grave (except that a body at rest remains at rest until acted upon by a force).

Newton knew diddly-squat about time and even less about time travel. Although his Principia Mathematica is amazingly insightful, his lesser known Principia Tempus was a childish effort. It rightfully has vanished into the archives along with works like the work of Pope Leo I, Jesus, the Party years, that describes the hedonistic antics of Jesus in his late teens and early twenties (Copies of either of the last two are now impossible to find). Cronon drag (like wind resistance or friction) means that a constant temporal force be applied to maintain a constant motion through time.

I’m thinking of starting a career as a hand waving apologist for really bad sci-fi.