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Cerberus

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Southeast coast of England
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Right-wing, atheist, and idealist
what possible fulfilment can athletes get from knowing full well they acquired their achievement by cheating on their fellow competitors? I just don't get it.
 
Cerberus said:
what possible fulfilment can athletes get from knowing full well they acquired their achievement by cheating on their fellow competitors? I just don't get it.
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The drive is to win, not to compete. The better trophies go to the winners, as do the better contracts, endorsements, blondes, and the most print in the newspaper.
And many of those that are caught seem to have convinced themselves that 'everyone does it,' so it's the only way to remain a contender.
 
Keith&Co. said:
Cerberus said:
what possible fulfilment can athletes get from knowing full well they acquired their achievement by cheating on their fellow competitors? I just don't get it.
Click to expand...

The drive is to win, not to compete. The better trophies go to the winners, as do the better contracts, endorsements, blondes, and the most print in the newspaper.
And many of those that are caught seem to have convinced themselves that 'everyone does it,' so it's the only way to remain a contender.
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But what about the humiliation when they are caught then? I mean, they must consider the possibility of it when they first set out to deceive the world and his wife? It must be a form of mental illness that's all I can say! Bit like irrational greed is.
 
Cerberus said:
But what about the humiliation when they are caught then?
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What about it?
Most criminals, in any part of society, are convinced that they are not going to get caught. Robbers, thieves, speeders, drug illiciters, insurance scammers, tax cheats and sports cheats are all sure that 'everyone does it' and expect that they're not speeding so fast that the cops must pay attention to them, or that the city will bother to prosecute one guy out of a thousand violators. They feel confident with their chances whether or not it's justified.
It must be a form of mental illness that's all I can say!
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There's no need to postulate mental illness when simple ignorance of statistics will suffice to explain it.
 
Keith&Co. said:
What about it?
Most criminals, in any part of society, are convinced that they are not going to get caught. Robbers, thieves, speeders, drug illiciters, insurance scammers, tax cheats and sports cheats are all sure that 'everyone does it' and expect that they're not speeding so fast that the cops must pay attention to them, or that the city will bother to prosecute one guy out of a thousand violators. They feel confident with their chances whether or not it's justified.
It must be a form of mental illness that's all I can say!
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There's no need to postulate mental illness when simple ignorance of statistics will suffice to explain it.
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I meant the desire to do it is a form of mental illness, not the fact of believing they won't be caught!
 
Cerberus said:
I meant the desire to do it is a form of mental illness, not the fact of believing they won't be caught!
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Why? I don't think most cheaters have a 'desire' to cheat. They have a desire to win. And they rationalize what they need to do to get what they want. Just like most of the rest of the species.
 
Keith&Co. said:
Cerberus said:
I meant the desire to do it is a form of mental illness, not the fact of believing they won't be caught!
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Why? I don't think most cheaters have a 'desire' to cheat. They have a desire to win. And they rationalize what they need to do to get what they want. Just like most of the rest of the species.
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But they obviously know that unless they cheat they won't win, so the desire to cheat is predominant in their minds, thus proving that it is a form of mental illness - QED?
 
Cerberus said:
Keith&Co. said:
Why? I don't think most cheaters have a 'desire' to cheat. They have a desire to win. And they rationalize what they need to do to get what they want. Just like most of the rest of the species.
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But they obviously know that unless they cheat they won't win, so the desire to cheat is predominant in their minds, thus proving that it is a form of mental illness - QED?
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Not necessarily. People are really, really good at rationailization. They could believe they're evening the odds by cheating for example, or that they "deserve" to win, or have been "forced" to cheat because others are too, just in a different way.
 
Cerberus said:
But they obviously know that unless they cheat they won't win, so the desire to cheat is predominant in their minds,
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Again, no, in my experience it's the desire to 'be a winner' that's predominant, not the 'desire to cheat.'
 
Cerberus said:
Keith&Co. said:
Why? I don't think most cheaters have a 'desire' to cheat. They have a desire to win. And they rationalize what they need to do to get what they want. Just like most of the rest of the species.
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But they obviously know that unless they cheat they won't win, so the desire to cheat is predominant in their minds, thus proving that it is a form of mental illness - QED?
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Cheating is defined as violating the sanctioned rules. We(society and all its representative bodies) institute rules so we may predict the behavior of others. Its comforting to assume everyone subscribes to the same rules, but this is simply not realistic. Whether the prize is a gold cup, the admiration and envy of others, or a coupon for a large pizza, each of decides how much effort is warranted to win.

Rules are arbitrary and often include clauses which make weaker contestants more competitive. Lance Armstrong is a famous cheater, but he peddled his bicycle every meter of the race. He didn't take a shortcut and meet them at the finish line. It turns out, he's a cheater. I can understand why a grown man with no marketable skills would think winning a bike race was important, especially after returning from a contest with cancer, where there are no rules and sometimes a doctor will remove a testical, or some other body part.

Lance wanted to win and he did. No one can dispute that. He also violated an arbitrary rule that actually had nothing to do with riding a bike. He didn't push anyone over or let the air out of their tires. Maybe he is mentally ill, but mental illness is defined by a set of rules no less arbitrary than the rules of the Tour de France. It's entirely possible to construct a set of rules which defines lack of desire to win at any cost, to be a human failing, and thus a mental illness.
 
Cerberus said:
Keith&Co. said:
Why? I don't think most cheaters have a 'desire' to cheat. They have a desire to win. And they rationalize what they need to do to get what they want. Just like most of the rest of the species.
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But they obviously know that unless they cheat they won't win, so the desire to cheat is predominant in their minds, thus proving that it is a form of mental illness - QED?
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Not necessarily. Look at Mark McGuire and Andro. Andro didn't make McGuire hit more home runs. McGuire was hitting plenty of home runs. His problem was, he kept hurting his back. The Andro helped his body recuperate better. That made his less prone to injury. And then being able to play a full season, he broke the home run record.

Then you have a Barry Bonds. He was a great player before his head grew two sizes. But the drugs made him better, healthier, less prone to injuries so he could play more consistently for longer. And of course, the money. That seems to be getting tossed aside here. You get paid well in baseball, but the best guys get paid even better. In cycling, only the top guys get paid a lot.
 
Cerberus said:
But what about the humiliation when they are caught then? I mean, they must consider the possibility of it when they first set out to deceive the world and his wife? It must be a form of mental illness that's all I can say! Bit like irrational greed is.
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We pretty much don't humiliate people for cheating.


We give them plenty of attention. And if attention was their initial reason for wanting to be the best at something, then for them there is no downside.
 
Some good replies, but I still don't understand the psychological motivation that makes them do it. But then I loathe sport anyway (well team sport - I've played all the racquet sports to club standard, and I played to win fairly), so I don't lose any sleep over the shinanigans of usually thick-as-shit sportsmen.
 
Cerberus said:
Some good replies, but I still don't understand the psychological motivation that makes them do it. But then I loathe sport anyway (well team sport - I've played all the racquet sports to club standard, and I played to win fairly), so I don't lose any sleep over the shinanigans of usually thick-as-shit sportsmen.
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The philosopher Mendacious said, "A man who has never been hungry, will never understand why another man steals bread."
 
Cerberus said:
Some good replies, but I still don't understand the psychological motivation that makes them do it.
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So money, the self created justification that everyone else is doing it, and the general drive to be the greatest are all reasons you can't understand?
 
Cerberus said:
what possible fulfilment can athletes get from knowing full well they acquired their achievement by cheating on their fellow competitors? I just don't get it.
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Depends on the sport. Let's look at the Tour de France and the big mess that was made of Lance Armstrong. The year before Lance won the entire French flagship team Festina got kicked out for drugs. The year right after Lance won 7 in a row, the winner Floyd Landis, got caught. The guy who was always #2 in Lance's shadow, Jan Ullrich, stated that Lance deserves every 7 Tour Wins because everyone was doped up.

A few guys made a point about racing the Tour clean and they never finished. Drugs have been part of the Tour since the first day. Guys would use speed and morphine. Then steroids came out in the 50s, EPO and HGH in the 90s. Blood transfusions have always been around to get extra red blood cells, EPO just made it easier. The mad doctors and scientists are usually a few years ahead of the testing. For every guy getting caught there are probably 100 getting away with it. The unwritten rule has always been go for it - if you get caught take a 6 month vacation. If they aren't messing around with gene doping now they will be soon.

Should only guys born with a high hematocrit level and Vo2 max win the race? What is unethical about changing your genetics?
 
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