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Trump 2024?

Jimmy Higgins

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Tulsi Gabbard always appeared the Manchurian Candidate. Her rhetoric screams left wing authoritarian populist.
How so?
Because she sounds like a left-wing populist authoritarian. She uses left-wing populism to garner support and is attacking a moderate / mainstream Biden for being divisive? I mean seriously?!

Gabbard is as dangerous to the US as Greene and Cawthorn.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Trump wins CPAC straw poll, with nearly 3 in 5 of the vote (59%).
article said:
CPAC tends to draw from the more conservative wing of the Republican Party, and its polls are not necessarily a reliable predictor of the eventual nominee.
I think the article is in error here. These people aren't more "conservative" they are more "partisan". Otherwise they wouldn't be supporting Trump.
 

TomC

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Trump wins CPAC straw poll, with nearly 3 in 5 of the vote (59%).
article said:
CPAC tends to draw from the more conservative wing of the Republican Party, and its polls are not necessarily a reliable predictor of the eventual nominee.
I think the article is in error here. These people aren't more "conservative" they are more "partisan". Otherwise they wouldn't be supporting Trump.
This is a very important point.
Merrick Garland was a conservative Republican. Liz Cheney is a conservative Republican.

Folks like them are vastly different from the radical TeaPartiers like Trump and MTG. Those people are progressives, not conservatives.
Tom
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Trump wins CPAC straw poll, with nearly 3 in 5 of the vote (59%).
article said:
CPAC tends to draw from the more conservative wing of the Republican Party, and its polls are not necessarily a reliable predictor of the eventual nominee.
I think the article is in error here. These people aren't more "conservative" they are more "partisan". Otherwise they wouldn't be supporting Trump.
This is a very important point.
Merrick Garland was a conservative Republican. Liz Cheney is a conservative Republican.

Folks like them are vastly different from the radical TeaPartiers like Trump and MTG. Those people are progressives, not conservatives.
Tom
:hysterical:
 

TomC

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Those people are progressives, not conservatives.
What "progress" are they making? :brood:

We used to be "The Nation of Immigrants". They want to progress beyond that old nonsense.

I liked our old ways.
Tom

ETA ~Were I able,
I'd make a video of modern GOP leaders pulling down The Statue of Liberty, with all that "send me your poor" stuff they've progressed beyond.~
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Those people are progressives, not conservatives.
What "progress" are they making? :brood:

We used to be "The Nation of Immigrants". They want to progress beyond that old nonsense.

I liked our old ways.
Tom

ETA ~Were I able,
I'd make a video of modern GOP leaders pulling down The Statue of Liberty, with all that "send me your poor" stuff they've progressed beyond.~
The term you are looking for is actually "right-wing populist".
 

TomC

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Those people are progressives, not conservatives.
What "progress" are they making? :brood:

We used to be "The Nation of Immigrants". They want to progress beyond that old nonsense.

I liked our old ways.
Tom

ETA ~Were I able,
I'd make a video of modern GOP leaders pulling down The Statue of Liberty, with all that "send me your poor" stuff they've progressed beyond.~
The term you are looking for is actually "right-wing populist".

Nevertheless, I am a Conservative and Trump is a Progressive.

Welcome to the brave new world.
Tom
 

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We used to be "The Nation of Immigrants". They want to progress beyond that old nonsense.

I liked our old ways.
Tom

ETA ~Were I able,
I'd make a video of modern GOP leaders pulling down The Statue of Liberty, with all that "send me your poor" stuff they've progressed beyond.~
The conservative wing has never supported those ideals. Social regressives freaking hated the Emma Lazarus poem; she wrote it to combat the vicious race nationalism projects of her own time, and their rhetoric has never greatly changed. If you personally reject racism and xenophobia, I applaud this, but there is nothing whatsoever conservative about that belief. America never fully embraced those ideals, and during those brief, bright moments when it seemed like we might, it was usually due to strenuous, customarily thankless effort on the part of idealist civilians like Lazarus, not the conservative policy-breakers that have always carried the heaviest weight in our central government.
 

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Those people are progressives, not conservatives.
What "progress" are they making? :brood:

We used to be "The Nation of Immigrants". They want to progress beyond that old nonsense.

I liked our old ways.
Tom

ETA ~Were I able,
I'd make a video of modern GOP leaders pulling down The Statue of Liberty, with all that "send me your poor" stuff they've progressed beyond.~
The term you are looking for is actually "right-wing populist".

Nevertheless, I am a Conservative and Trump is a Progressive.

Welcome to the brave new world.
Tom
Pulling in a stupid direction for stupid reasons is not progressive.
Especially when they tell themselves they're 'returning' to a mythical past of American purity and dominance.
 

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Trump running in '24 is probably Sleepy Joe's best chance for re-election.
They could run Gomhert, Gaetz, Greene or Gosar and have a cakewalk. But Running a twice impeached two time loser who tried to abolish democracy...
That would be a real gifty for the Dems.
 

TomC

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Those people are progressives, not conservatives.
What "progress" are they making? :brood:

We used to be "The Nation of Immigrants". They want to progress beyond that old nonsense.

I liked our old ways.
Tom

ETA ~Were I able,
I'd make a video of modern GOP leaders pulling down The Statue of Liberty, with all that "send me your poor" stuff they've progressed beyond.~
The term you are looking for is actually "right-wing populist".

Nevertheless, I am a Conservative and Trump is a Progressive.

Welcome to the brave new world.
Tom
Pulling in a stupid direction for stupid reasons is not progressive.
Especially when they tell themselves they're 'returning' to a mythical past of American purity and dominance.

Stupid is a rather subjective judgement.

Hillary was advocating small, incremental, changes. Trump was advocating huge sweeping changes.
That makes Hillary the conservative choice and Trump the progressive choice.

I don't even know what liberal means any more. It doesn't seem to mean anything. It's a label partisan dumbasses use to tell the viewers what to think before the dumbass says anything important.
Thomas Jefferson was a notorious liberal who owned black people. Stalin is viewed as a leftist, when he looks more like a TeaPartier with power than AOC.

These words just get so complex in the 21st century.
Tom
 

Jimmy Higgins

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We used to be "The Nation of Immigrants". They want to progress beyond that old nonsense.

I liked our old ways.
Tom

ETA ~Were I able,
I'd make a video of modern GOP leaders pulling down The Statue of Liberty, with all that "send me your poor" stuff they've progressed beyond.~
The term you are looking for is actually "right-wing populist".

Nevertheless, I am a Conservative and Trump is a Progressive.

Welcome to the brave new world.
Tom
Pulling in a stupid direction for stupid reasons is not progressive.
Especially when they tell themselves they're 'returning' to a mythical past of American purity and dominance.

Stupid is a rather subjective judgement.

Hillary was advocating small, incremental, changes. Trump was advocating huge sweeping changes.
That makes Hillary the conservative choice and Trump the progressive choice.
Okay, so your choice is just to use words as you'd prefer.

Seriously, Trump's motto was "Make America Great Again"... as in RETURN it to where it was, back in the good ole days. That'd be conservative, not progressive. Otherwise Putin is progressive for wanting to make big change by bringing Ukraine back into Russia, like in the old days.
These words just get so complex in the 21st century.
Yes, words are harder to understand if you don't use them properly.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Trump running in '24 is probably Sleepy Joe's best chance for re-election.
There are no guarantees. I do not underestimate the right-wing fascists and their representation in the House and sparse representation in the Senate anymore. We were just one person shy of Trump's second.
They could run Gomhert, Gaetz, Greene or Gosar and have a cakewalk. But Running a twice impeached two time loser who tried to abolish democracy...
That would be a real gifty for the Dems.
No. The fact that Trump won the majority at CPAC indicates our country is fucked. The right-wing consists of far right-wingers and fascists.
 

Elixir

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CPAC doesn't even represent everyone who voted for Cheato in 2020. And he lost that by ~8m votes.
If he has to overcome a 10m vote deficit, that is going to be a tall order, even with all their cheating*.
He has major stench on him.

* depending on how much they can do after taking control of Congress this year
 

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Those people are progressives, not conservatives.
What "progress" are they making? :brood:

We used to be "The Nation of Immigrants". They want to progress beyond that old nonsense.

I liked our old ways.
Tom

ETA ~Were I able,
I'd make a video of modern GOP leaders pulling down The Statue of Liberty, with all that "send me your poor" stuff they've progressed beyond.~
The term you are looking for is actually "right-wing populist".

Nevertheless, I am a Conservative and Trump is a Progressive.

Welcome to the brave new world.
Tom
Pulling in a stupid direction for stupid reasons is not progressive.
Especially when they tell themselves they're 'returning' to a mythical past of American purity and dominance.

Stupid is a rather subjective judgement.
But backwards isn't. He's literally fighting progressive changes.
Hillary was advocating small, incremental, changes. Trump was advocating huge sweeping changes.
That makes Hillary the conservative choice and Trump the progressive choice.
Small incremental changes forward, sweeping restrictions, losses of rights and progress.
A sweeping change of removing the progressive Affordable Care Act is not progressive.
I think 'reactionary' would be a better term.

Bug nuts.
Retarded.
Lots of words apply a lot better than progressive.

I don't even know what liberal means any more.
Right now it means Not Anti-Science, Not Anti-Women, Not Anti-Equal Opportunity.

It doesn't seem to mean anything. It's a label partisan dumbasses use to tell the viewers what to think before the dumbass says anything important.
...like communism, socialism, Marxism, responsibility, mandate...
 

Jimmy Higgins

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CPAC doesn't even represent everyone who voted for Cheato in 2020. And he lost that by ~8m votes.
If he has to overcome a 10m vote deficit, that is going to be a tall order, even with all their cheating*.
He has major stench on him.

* depending on how much they can do after taking control of Congress this year
Trump didn't lose the election by 8 million votes. He lost several states by very fine margins, states run mostly by GOP governments that have been aiming to restrict access to the ballot.
 

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Trump running in '24 is probably Sleepy Joe's best chance for re-election.
There are no guarantees. I do not underestimate the right-wing fascists and their representation in the House and sparse representation in the Senate anymore. We were just one person shy of Trump's second.
They could run Gomhert, Gaetz, Greene or Gosar and have a cakewalk. But Running a twice impeached two time loser who tried to abolish democracy...
That would be a real gifty for the Dems.
No. The fact that Trump won the majority at CPAC indicates our country is fucked. The right-wing consists of far right-wingers and fascists.
You forgot that the US has lost around a million people, and those most heavily impacted by it are those who think the virus was a hoax, and other "conservative" idiots.

I'm a little bit hopeful that the margins have been impacted meaningfully in exchange for some well earned Darwin awards.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Trump running in '24 is probably Sleepy Joe's best chance for re-election.
There are no guarantees. I do not underestimate the right-wing fascists and their representation in the House and sparse representation in the Senate anymore. We were just one person shy of Trump's second.
They could run Gomhert, Gaetz, Greene or Gosar and have a cakewalk. But Running a twice impeached two time loser who tried to abolish democracy...
That would be a real gifty for the Dems.
No. The fact that Trump won the majority at CPAC indicates our country is fucked. The right-wing consists of far right-wingers and fascists.
You forgot that the US has lost around a million people, and those most heavily impacted by it are those who think the virus was a hoax, and other "conservative" idiots.

I'm a little bit hopeful that the margins have been impacted meaningfully in exchange for some well earned Darwin awards.
Too spread out. A notable plurality of deaths were in Florida, California, Texas and New York. And while deaths likely went under-reported in Florida, they aren't remotely in touch with a Federal Election margin of victory in 2020, where the state voted heavily in favor of the anti-socialist dumpster fire.

Georgia and Arizona could be interesting, but the margins would still be very tight.
 

marc

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Those people are progressives, not conservatives.
What "progress" are they making? :brood:
More like ‘regressive’ than progressives. The GOP’s actual stances/actions on taxation, regulation, and social issues make it rather clear they would like nothing more than to usher us into the 1890’s. The Gilded Age is closest to what they seem to think is when America was great. I recall one congressman even saying it was great in his grandmother’s time, which was in that age.
 

Elixir

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CPAC doesn't even represent everyone who voted for Cheato in 2020. And he lost that by ~8m votes.
If he has to overcome a 10m vote deficit, that is going to be a tall order, even with all their cheating*.
He has major stench on him.

* depending on how much they can do after taking control of Congress this year
Trump didn't lose the election by 8 million votes. He lost several states by very fine margins, states run mostly by GOP governments that have been aiming to restrict access to the ballot.
Of course, I know about the few thousand votes that decided the electoral college. The same was true of Trump’s 2016 “landslide”, but the popular vote margin was only 3 mil. Again, if the popular vote margin swells to 10m they’re going to have to cheat that much harder just to win the EC.
 

Loren Pechtel

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You forgot that the US has lost around a million people, and those most heavily impacted by it are those who think the virus was a hoax, and other "conservative" idiots.

I'm a little bit hopeful that the margins have been impacted meaningfully in exchange for some well earned Darwin awards.

And note that the distribution skews heavily towards the older people--and older people are more likely to be Republican. Thus even amongst the ones that aren't death cultists it will help the Democrats.
 

Elixir

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I don't actually think Sleepy Joe can beat anyone, except maybe Trump. But only if Trump comes fully loaded and shoots himself in the foot daily throughout the campaign.
 

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I don't even know what liberal means any more.
It might help if you are mindful of the difference between economic liberalism and social liberalism. Conservatives tend to favour the former and deprecate the latter. The tendency among progressives is to sacrifice some of the former for the sake of the latter. Neo-conservatives like Hillary Clinton - and now Joseph Biden - try to have it both ways. That has not worked out well for the vast majority of the electorate since the early to mid 1970s. Before then the rising tide lifted all boats, albeit at different rates.
 
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Those people are progressives, not conservatives.
What "progress" are they making? :brood:

We used to be "The Nation of Immigrants". They want to progress beyond that old nonsense.

I liked our old ways.
Tom

ETA ~Were I able,
I'd make a video of modern GOP leaders pulling down The Statue of Liberty, with all that "send me your poor" stuff they've progressed beyond.~
The term you are looking for is actually "right-wing populist".

Nevertheless, I am a Conservative and Trump is a Progressive.

Welcome to the brave new world.
Tom
Pulling in a stupid direction for stupid reasons is not progressive.
Especially when they tell themselves they're 'returning' to a mythical past of American purity and dominance.
Yeah, "progressive" does not mean pining for the past. It is not progressive to say Make _____ Great Again
 

Jimmy Higgins

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CPAC doesn't even represent everyone who voted for Cheato in 2020. And he lost that by ~8m votes.
If he has to overcome a 10m vote deficit, that is going to be a tall order, even with all their cheating*.
He has major stench on him.

* depending on how much they can do after taking control of Congress this year
Trump didn't lose the election by 8 million votes. He lost several states by very fine margins, states run mostly by GOP governments that have been aiming to restrict access to the ballot.
Of course, I know about the few thousand votes that decided the electoral college. The same was true of Trump’s 2016 “landslide”, but the popular vote margin was only 3 mil. Again, if the popular vote margin swells to 10m they’re going to have to cheat that much harder just to win the EC.
And in what universe do you think they haven't already cheated?
 

Elixir

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CPAC doesn't even represent everyone who voted for Cheato in 2020. And he lost that by ~8m votes.
If he has to overcome a 10m vote deficit, that is going to be a tall order, even with all their cheating*.
He has major stench on him.

* depending on how much they can do after taking control of Congress this year
Trump didn't lose the election by 8 million votes. He lost several states by very fine margins, states run mostly by GOP governments that have been aiming to restrict access to the ballot.
Of course, I know about the few thousand votes that decided the electoral college. The same was true of Trump’s 2016 “landslide”, but the popular vote margin was only 3 mil. Again, if the popular vote margin swells to 10m they’re going to have to cheat that much harder just to win the EC.
And in what universe do you think they haven't already cheated?
WUT? There is no such universe.
"they’re going to have to cheat that much harder"
And they will. Bet on it.
 

jab

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Those people are progressives, not conservatives.
What "progress" are they making? :brood:

We used to be "The Nation of Immigrants". They want to progress beyond that old nonsense.

I liked our old ways.
Tom

ETA ~Were I able,
I'd make a video of modern GOP leaders pulling down The Statue of Liberty, with all that "send me your poor" stuff they've progressed beyond.~
The term you are looking for is actually "right-wing populist".

Nevertheless, I am a Conservative and Trump is a Progressive.

Welcome to the brave new world.
Tom
Pulling in a stupid direction for stupid reasons is not progressive.
Especially when they tell themselves they're 'returning' to a mythical past of American purity and dominance.

Stupid is a rather subjective judgement.

Hillary was advocating small, incremental, changes. Trump was advocating huge sweeping changes.
That makes Hillary the conservative choice and Trump the progressive choice.

I don't even know what liberal means any more. It doesn't seem to mean anything. It's a label partisan dumbasses use to tell the viewers what to think before the dumbass says anything important.
Thomas Jefferson was a notorious liberal who owned black people. Stalin is viewed as a leftist, when he looks more like a TeaPartier with power than AOC.

These words just get so complex in the 21st century.
Tom
the term for Trump and his supporters is reactionary
 

jab

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Okay, so your choice is just to use words as you'd prefer.
I described what I meant by the words.

If you've got a different meaning for them, feel free to say.
Tom
Well, yes America in the 2000s--well, actually for my whole life, from the 1950s onwards, except briefly in mid to late 1970s-- has felt like Alice in Wonderland.
 

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It's fun to view the highlights of a Presidency. For JFK the reel would include the "Ask not what your country can do for you" speech, the trip to Berlin, his announcements during the Cuban Missile Crisis and especially his "We choose to go to the Moon not because it is easy but because it is hard" speech. Other Presidents also had their great moments.

Here's the highlight reel for the Trump Administration.
President Kennedy was first and foremost an inveterate cold war warrior. Nothing wrong with that in itself. The years from 1945 and 1991 were a fight for supremacy between two superpowers, and JFK was the figurehead of one of them. Kennedy was very good at bullshitting. Nothing could be more bullshit than when he said "We choose to go to the moon not because it is easy but because it is hard". The US got startled when the USSR stole a march in the space race with the launch of Sputnik. It had to prove that capitalism is superior to what was portrayed as communism by stepping on the moon first. That was all there was to it.

If you want to compare Trump with any other president, I suggest watching the difference in style with which Obama announced the death of Osama Bin Laden and how Trump went about announcing the death of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. This cropped version will do just fine.

 

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The US got startled when the USSR stole a march in the space race with the launch of Sputnik. It had to prove that capitalism is superior to what was portrayed as communism by stepping on the moon first. That was all there was to it
Yeah, we do that.

After WWII., there was debate about where to put the nukes we were building. Silos, bombers, a few other options. One suggestion was submarines.
There was a lot of support for the idea, and a LOT of pushback. Some questioned if it was feasible, some if it was even possible.
In September, 1955, the Soviets managed to cram a silo into a sub and launch a missile. Less than a month later, Admiral Raborn had a department, a budget, and a ten-year deadline to build what became the Polaris missile program.
The introductory presentation they gave me to inducy new hires never mentions the Soviet milestone...
 

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Trump running in '24 is probably Sleepy Joe's best chance for re-election.
They could run Gomhert, Gaetz, Greene or Gosar and have a cakewalk. But Running a twice impeached two time loser who tried to abolish democracy...
That would be a real gifty for the Dems.
The only reason Trump would be the 2024 nominee would be to spare the short list of Republicans who have a shot at the 2028 nomination.
 

Derec

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We used to be "The Nation of Immigrants". They want to progress beyond that old nonsense.

Things change. The world changes. Overly permissive immigration policies of the 19th century do not make sense in the 21st century.
 

Derec

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tendency among progressives is to sacrifice some of the former for the sake of the latter.
Not in all aspects. Abortion or gays? Sure. In others things, like consensual sex work, they are as, or even more, authoritarian than the conservatives. When it comes to what kinds of speech should be "cancelled", so-called "progressives" are also very much in favor of restricting speech to what they find acceptable.

Neo-conservatives like Hillary Clinton - and now Joseph Biden - try to have it both ways. That has not worked out well for the vast majority of the electorate since the early to mid 1970s. Before then the rising tide lifted all boats, albeit at different rates.
Biden a neo-conservative? LMAO! It does not even apply to Hillary "vote for me because I am female" Clinton and much less to Joe Biden, who has turned out to be more left than say Obama.
 

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tendency among progressives is to sacrifice some of the former for the sake of the latter.
Not in all aspects. Abortion or gays? Sure. In others things, like consensual sex work, they are as, or even more, authoritarian than the conservatives.
Can you cite a source for that extraordinary claim, Derec? It turns out that the opposite is true, which only surprises those for whom facts are irrelevant. Democrats were more likely to support decriminalization, with 64 percent in favor, compared with 55 percent of independents and 37 percent of Republicans.

When it comes to what kinds of speech should be "cancelled", so-called "progressives" are also very much in favor of restricting speech to what they find acceptable.
Oh, progressives are in favour of restricting speech to what they find acceptable. How courageous of them to voice such opinions. Meanwhile, conservatives are actually acting on the same sentiment. They have embarked on a concerted campaign to invade school boards in order to succeed in a book-banning spree. They have similar projects on the go to remove books from public libraries they find unacceptable. Glenn Youngkin, said during his gubernatorial campaign that he would ban critical race theory on his first day in office.

What next? Public book burnings? Oh, wait. That's already happening. Tennessee Republicans hold a book burning to destroy Harry Potter, Twilight, and other "demonic" titles. The students at the Georgia Southern University who burnt Jennine Capo Crucet's book on white privilege and racism were probably not progressives either.

Neo-conservatives like Hillary Clinton - and now Joseph Biden - try to have it both ways. That has not worked out well for the vast majority of the electorate since the early to mid 1970s. Before then the rising tide lifted all boats, albeit at different rates.
Biden a neo-conservative? LMAO! It does not even apply to Hillary "vote for me because I am female" Clinton and much less to Joe Biden, who has turned out to be more left than say Obama.
Yes, neo-conservative. You missed the bit where I wrote "it might help if you are mindful of the difference between economic liberalism and social liberalism." The pandemic has forced Biden to put the brakes on economic liberalism, though.
 

Elixir

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Biden a neo-conservative? LMAO! It does not even apply to Hillary "vote for me because I am female" Clinton and much less to Joe Biden, who has turned out to be more left than say Obama.

Yet somewhere far to the right of Eisenhower.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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tendency among progressives is to sacrifice some of the former for the sake of the latter.
Not in all aspects. Abortion or gays? Sure. In others things, like consensual sex work, they are as, or even more, authoritarian than the conservatives. When it comes to what kinds of speech should be "cancelled", so-called "progressives" are also very much in favor of restricting speech to what they find acceptable.

Neo-conservatives like Hillary Clinton - and now Joseph Biden - try to have it both ways. That has not worked out well for the vast majority of the electorate since the early to mid 1970s. Before then the rising tide lifted all boats, albeit at different rates.
Biden a neo-conservative? LMAO! It does not even apply to Hillary "vote for me because I am female" Clinton and much less to Joe Biden, who has turned out to be more left than say Obama.
Obama wasn't particularly liberal, nor was Bill Clinton or Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden. In fact, it could be argued the Democrats have NEVER managed to elect a particularly liberal person to the White House.
 

Bronzeage

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tendency among progressives is to sacrifice some of the former for the sake of the latter.
Not in all aspects. Abortion or gays? Sure. In others things, like consensual sex work, they are as, or even more, authoritarian than the conservatives. When it comes to what kinds of speech should be "cancelled", so-called "progressives" are also very much in favor of restricting speech to what they find acceptable.

Neo-conservatives like Hillary Clinton - and now Joseph Biden - try to have it both ways. That has not worked out well for the vast majority of the electorate since the early to mid 1970s. Before then the rising tide lifted all boats, albeit at different rates.
Biden a neo-conservative? LMAO! It does not even apply to Hillary "vote for me because I am female" Clinton and much less to Joe Biden, who has turned out to be more left than say Obama.
Obama wasn't particularly liberal, nor was Bill Clinton or Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden. In fact, it could be argued the Democrats have NEVER managed to elect a particularly liberal person to the White House.
The labels liberal and conservative were once opposites on a spectrum, but that is no longer the case. When support for conservatism was waning because their economic policies were failing, conservatives turned to racism and xenophobia to appeal to white voters who had traditionally voted Democratic for economic reasons. Government policies such as voting rights and civil rights were blamed for their perceived economic stagnation. At this point, Republican strategists abandoned any pretense of valuing truth or reason. All that mattered was constructing a message which could corral votes of their base. There is no attempt to appeal to the general population of voters. All they want is to concentrate votes for a particular candidate.

This allowed the Democrats to take more of the moderate middle ground, which forced the Republicans closer to fascism in order to maintain their base.
 

Derec

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Obama wasn't particularly liberal, nor was Bill Clinton or Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden.
How do you define "liberal". Bill Clinton was a moderate on most issues, I would grant you that, but Obama was to the left of him, and Biden is to the left of Obama.

In fact, it could be argued the Democrats have NEVER managed to elect a particularly liberal person to the White House.
Again, that depends on your definition of the term.
 

Derec

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conservatives turned to racism and xenophobia to appeal to white voters who had traditionally voted Democratic for economic reasons.
More like: the left turned toward anti-white identity politics. Things like so-called "affirmative action" and "critical race theory" (which is even infecting math education in places like California) have become non-negotiable among Democrats.
 

Hermit

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Obama wasn't particularly liberal, nor was Bill Clinton or Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden.
How do you define "liberal". Bill Clinton was a moderate on most issues, I would grant you that, but Obama was to the left of him, and Biden is to the left of Obama.

In fact, it could be argued the Democrats have NEVER managed to elect a particularly liberal person to the White House.
Again, that depends on your definition of the term.
To start with, you need to make clear whether you're talking about economic liberalism or social liberalism. I told you in this post a couple of days ago.

The same post, incidentally in which I schooled you in regard to your bizarre assertion that progressives are as, or even more, authoritarian than the conservatives in regard to the issue of consensual sex work, which you also ignored.
 

Derec

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Can you cite a source for that extraordinary claim, Derec?
It's not a single source. It's a combination of evidence. The sexist "Swedish model" itself is a creation of the feminist Left and has been adopted by left-wing governments in places like France, Spain and Canada. German far-left Left Party (they include elements of East German "Socialist Unity Party" SED) is also pushing for it.
In the US, the anti-sex work SASTA/FOSTA abomination was passed with bipartisan supermajorities. In the House, comparable numbers of Democrats and Republicans voted against. In the Senate, only 2 did so - one Democrat, one Republican.
"Turns out" is a rather strong statement based on nothing more than a flimsy poll by a partisan "Data for Progress". I am skeptical of the poll because many on the left use decriminalization language to mean the sexist Swedish model which is decriminalization for providers only. For example, when the previous Manhattan DA announced that he will no longer prosecute prostitution, he made it clear that he still wants to prosecute customers. The Swedish model is left-wing, "progressive" orthodoxy and is supported also by many on here, most vocally Toni.

Meanwhile, conservatives are actually acting on the same sentiment. They have embarked on a concerted campaign to invade school boards in order to succeed in a book-banning spree. They have similar projects on the go to remove books from public libraries they find unacceptable. Glenn Youngkin, said during his gubernatorial campaign that he would ban critical race theory on his first day in office.
Disagreements about curriculum are different than free speech issues. I do not think branding one race as uniquely racist (which is what CRT does) is good educational policy. Nor is insisting that math is racist like California wants to do. Public school should not be places of ideological indoctrination - from the left or from the right.

Extremists on both sides of the spectrum are bad. Left-wing extremists are no better than right-wing ones.

What next? Public book burnings? Oh, wait. That's already happening.
And for years the "progressives" have been actively trying to prevent conservative and pro-Israel speakers from speaking at universities, including disruptive tactics if they could not persuade the administration from banning the speaker outright.
Calls from the left to restrict speech have also been going on for years.

Yes, neo-conservative. You missed the bit where I wrote "it might help if you are mindful of the difference between economic liberalism and social liberalism." The pandemic has forced Biden to put the brakes on economic liberalism, though.

Biden has shifted far left, which is a shame. But that does not mean Hillary is a "neoconservative".
 
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Derec

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To start with, you need to make clear whether you're talking about economic liberalism or social liberalism. I told you in this post a couple of days ago.
Well, if we are talking about a person or a party as a whole, it has to be a combination of the two.
And even within "social liberalism" there are nuances because people can be liberal on one issue (gays, abortion) and conservative on another (sex work).

The same post, incidentally in which I schooled you in regard to your bizarre assertion that progressives are as, or even more, authoritarian than the conservatives in regard to the issue of consensual sex work, which you also ignored.
I have not ignored it.
 

Swammerdami

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I don't even know what liberal means any more.
It might help if you are mindful of the difference between economic liberalism and social liberalism. Conservatives tend to favour the former and deprecate the latter. The tendency among progressives is to sacrifice some of the former for the sake of the latter. Neo-conservatives like Hillary Clinton - and now Joseph Biden - try to have it both ways. That has not worked out well for the vast majority of the electorate since the early to mid 1970s. Before then the rising tide lifted all boats, albeit at different rates.
I'm curious why you label Joe Biden as a "neo-conservative" — recall that he opposed the 1991 Gulf War. And where you imply that Biden embraces "economic liberalism", how does this mesh with his very progressive proposals for taxes and spending?
 
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