U.S. Court Rules Dreadlock Ban During Hiring Process Is Legal

[Loren Pechtel]

WRT lice, apparently clean or dirty hair is irrelevant: https://www.aad.org/public/diseases/contagious-skin-diseases/head-lice

Agreed. You can't de-lice dreadlocks because you can't get rid of the eggs.

 

[RavenSky]

WRT lice, apparently clean or dirty hair is irrelevant: https://www.aad.org/public/diseases/contagious-skin-diseases/head-lice

Agreed. You can't de-lice dreadlocks because you can't get rid of the eggs.

wrong

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Proxy for race?

aa

Could be, but I like how folks here have focussed on what could be a good and valid reason for banning dreadlocks. Just because dreadlocks happen to be found more on one group than another doesn't mean we shouldn't ban them if they are indeed unsanitary and likely to cause harm via food workers. Thanks for pointing this out to me, I did indeed miss this thread.

 

[whichphilosophy]

WRT lice, apparently clean or dirty hair is irrelevant: https://www.aad.org/public/diseases/contagious-skin-diseases/head-lice

Agreed. You can't de-lice dreadlocks because you can't get rid of the eggs.

De licer can get rid of eggs. IT depends which one are used. There is no evidence that dreadlocks or any other curly hair lice are more difficult to remove than for ordinary hair. Bob Marley was used as an example but this was clearly a false report because he had lost all is hair earlier when he had cancer. He was wearing a wig for his funeral.

Lice does not depend on the type of hair a person has. It is spread by head to head contact, pillows, sharing combs,towels etc. Lice will land on straight, curly and dreadlocks. In the same page there is more information on this.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Agreed. You can't de-lice dreadlocks because you can't get rid of the eggs.

De licer can get rid of eggs. IT depends which one are used. There is no evidence that dreadlocks or any other curly hair lice are more difficult to remove than for ordinary hair. Bob Marley was used as an example but this was clearly a false report because he had lost all is hair earlier when he had cancer. He was wearing a wig for his funeral.

Lice does not depend on the type of hair a person has. It is spread by head to head contact, pillows, sharing combs,towels etc. Lice will land on straight, curly and dreadlocks. In the same page there is more information on this.

Ok, they have some new stuff I didn't know about. I thought you always had to comb.

 

[ronburgundy]

While getting rid of lice is much harder with dreads, it can be done.

Also, White people are the most likely race to get lice, and African Americans the least.
This is likely because whites have thinner follicles that the lice can grab onto easier.

And girls get it and spread it far more often, due to their longer hair. So, a ban on dreadlocks is no more (and arguably less) justified than a ban on long hair (even for girls), or requiring white people to have shorter hair than others.

OTOH, people with dreads are more likely to douse themselves in patchouli oil and that rank shit should be banned.

 

[Malintent]

De licer can get rid of eggs. IT depends which one are used. There is no evidence that dreadlocks or any other curly hair lice are more difficult to remove than for ordinary hair. Bob Marley was used as an example but this was clearly a false report because he had lost all is hair earlier when he had cancer. He was wearing a wig for his funeral.

Lice does not depend on the type of hair a person has. It is spread by head to head contact, pillows, sharing combs,towels etc. Lice will land on straight, curly and dreadlocks. In the same page there is more information on this.

Ok, they have some new stuff I didn't know about. I thought you always had to comb.

You can theoretically remove lice and eggs by soaking dreads in alcohol. However, without combing, one cannot CONFIRM the eggs have been killed until they hatch (or don't).
So while one may be able to rid themselves of lice, they will not be able to get themselves back in school because a combing of the hair cannot be done to demonstrate removal or death of the eggs.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ok, they have some new stuff I didn't know about. I thought you always had to comb.

You can theoretically remove lice and eggs by soaking dreads in alcohol. However, without combing, one cannot CONFIRM the eggs have been killed until they hatch (or don't).
So while one may be able to rid themselves of lice, they will not be able to get themselves back in school because a combing of the hair cannot be done to demonstrate removal or death of the eggs.

That makes sense--not proven treated rather than not treated. It amounts to the same thing, though, lice + dreads = big problem.

 

[RavenSky]

That makes sense--not proven treated rather than not treated. It amounts to the same thing, though, lice + dreads = big problem.

Same goes for kinky, curly, long and thick hair. Maybe schools should insist all students have shaved heads

 

[whichphilosophy]

Ok, they have some new stuff I didn't know about. I thought you always had to comb.

You can theoretically remove lice and eggs by soaking dreads in alcohol. However, without combing, one cannot CONFIRM the eggs have been killed until they hatch (or don't).
So while one may be able to rid themselves of lice, they will not be able to get themselves back in school because a combing of the hair cannot be done to demonstrate removal or death of the eggs.

There are certain treatments that claim to treat the lice and their eggs such as MOOV Head Lice Solution, KP24 (and claims to protect against re-infestation).
Some other remedies, though they don't kill the eggs work if applied every three days to any type of hair. This would include some home remedies and as you mentioned the use of alcohol.

 

[Malintent]

That makes sense--not proven treated rather than not treated. It amounts to the same thing, though, lice + dreads = big problem.

Same goes for kinky, curly, long and thick hair. Maybe schools should insist all students have shaved heads

I actually think that is a good idea... and for there to be sanctions of some kind against parents that send kids to school with a fever, while we're at it during this Flu season.
Shaved heads and uniforms... not the only institution to adopt an anti-individualism policy. Individualism is for College, not for grade school where you first need to learn HOW to learn.

That said, the hair types you mention can certainly be combed sufficiently to reveal any eggs.. .the problem is when the hair is braided, tied, dreaded, or otherwise made knotted beyond being able to be combed at all - even just medically.

- - - Updated - - -

You can theoretically remove lice and eggs by soaking dreads in alcohol. However, without combing, one cannot CONFIRM the eggs have been killed until they hatch (or don't).
So while one may be able to rid themselves of lice, they will not be able to get themselves back in school because a combing of the hair cannot be done to demonstrate removal or death of the eggs.

There are certain treatments that claim to treat the lice and their eggs such as MOOV Head Lice Solution, KP24 (and claims to protect against re-infestation).
Some other remedies, though they don't kill the eggs work if applied every three days to any type of hair. This would include some home remedies and as you mentioned the use of alcohol.

and how, after ALLEGED treatment by the parent at home, does the school confirm it is safe for the kid to return to the population without danger of spreading the problem? If a kid is sent home from school with a fever, many schools require a clean bill of health from a doctor to allow the kid back.. so how do we do this with a lice problem in a kid who cannot pass a comb through even one time a little bit just to show no eggs.

 

[LordKiran]

While getting rid of lice is much harder with dreads, it can be done.

Also, White people are the most likely race to get lice, and African Americans the least.
This is likely because whites have thinner follicles that the lice can grab onto easier.

And girls get it and spread it far more often, due to their longer hair. So, a ban on dreadlocks is no more (and arguably less) justified than a ban on long hair (even for girls), or requiring white people to have shorter hair than others.

OTOH, people with dreads are more likely to douse themselves in patchouli oil and that rank shit should be banned.

Ban men's body sprays first and then we'll talk.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Same goes for kinky, curly, long and thick hair. Maybe schools should insist all students have shaved heads

I actually think that is a good idea... and for there to be sanctions of some kind against parents that send kids to school with a fever, while we're at it during this Flu season.
Shaved heads and uniforms... not the only institution to adopt an anti-individualism policy. Individualism is for College, not for grade school where you first need to learn HOW to learn.

That said, the hair types you mention can certainly be combed sufficiently to reveal any eggs.. .the problem is when the hair is braided, tied, dreaded, or otherwise made knotted beyond being able to be combed at all - even just medically.

- - - Updated - - -

You can theoretically remove lice and eggs by soaking dreads in alcohol. However, without combing, one cannot CONFIRM the eggs have been killed until they hatch (or don't).
So while one may be able to rid themselves of lice, they will not be able to get themselves back in school because a combing of the hair cannot be done to demonstrate removal or death of the eggs.

There are certain treatments that claim to treat the lice and their eggs such as MOOV Head Lice Solution, KP24 (and claims to protect against re-infestation).
Some other remedies, though they don't kill the eggs work if applied every three days to any type of hair. This would include some home remedies and as you mentioned the use of alcohol.

and how, after ALLEGED treatment by the parent at home, does the school confirm it is safe for the kid to return to the population without danger of spreading the problem? If a kid is sent home from school with a fever, many schools require a clean bill of health from a doctor to allow the kid back.. so how do we do this with a lice problem in a kid who cannot pass a comb through even one time a little bit just to show no eggs.

Having lice is not having a disease and they are removable with treatments. Clean and not so clean people get lice.

 

[ronburgundy]

I actually think that is a good idea... and for there to be sanctions of some kind against parents that send kids to school with a fever, while we're at it during this Flu season.
Shaved heads and uniforms... not the only institution to adopt an anti-individualism policy. Individualism is for College, not for grade school where you first need to learn HOW to learn.

That said, the hair types you mention can certainly be combed sufficiently to reveal any eggs.. .the problem is when the hair is braided, tied, dreaded, or otherwise made knotted beyond being able to be combed at all - even just medically.

- - - Updated - - -

You can theoretically remove lice and eggs by soaking dreads in alcohol. However, without combing, one cannot CONFIRM the eggs have been killed until they hatch (or don't).
So while one may be able to rid themselves of lice, they will not be able to get themselves back in school because a combing of the hair cannot be done to demonstrate removal or death of the eggs.

There are certain treatments that claim to treat the lice and their eggs such as MOOV Head Lice Solution, KP24 (and claims to protect against re-infestation).
Some other remedies, though they don't kill the eggs work if applied every three days to any type of hair. This would include some home remedies and as you mentioned the use of alcohol.

and how, after ALLEGED treatment by the parent at home, does the school confirm it is safe for the kid to return to the population without danger of spreading the problem? If a kid is sent home from school with a fever, many schools require a clean bill of health from a doctor to allow the kid back.. so how do we do this with a lice problem in a kid who cannot pass a comb through even one time a little bit just to show no eggs.

Having lice is not having a disease and they are removable with treatments. Clean and not so clean people get lice.

Yeah, lice are merely gross, not dangerous. Amusingly, many of the people that oppose keeping kids out of school that are a real danger to others because they haven't been vaccinated are likely to support keeping kids out of school for only some of the conveniently chosen hairstyles that might make it harder to get rid of lice if the person happens to get lice which are not dangerous.

 

[Malintent]

I actually think that is a good idea... and for there to be sanctions of some kind against parents that send kids to school with a fever, while we're at it during this Flu season.
Shaved heads and uniforms... not the only institution to adopt an anti-individualism policy. Individualism is for College, not for grade school where you first need to learn HOW to learn.

That said, the hair types you mention can certainly be combed sufficiently to reveal any eggs.. .the problem is when the hair is braided, tied, dreaded, or otherwise made knotted beyond being able to be combed at all - even just medically.

- - - Updated - - -

You can theoretically remove lice and eggs by soaking dreads in alcohol. However, without combing, one cannot CONFIRM the eggs have been killed until they hatch (or don't).
So while one may be able to rid themselves of lice, they will not be able to get themselves back in school because a combing of the hair cannot be done to demonstrate removal or death of the eggs.

There are certain treatments that claim to treat the lice and their eggs such as MOOV Head Lice Solution, KP24 (and claims to protect against re-infestation).
Some other remedies, though they don't kill the eggs work if applied every three days to any type of hair. This would include some home remedies and as you mentioned the use of alcohol.

and how, after ALLEGED treatment by the parent at home, does the school confirm it is safe for the kid to return to the population without danger of spreading the problem? If a kid is sent home from school with a fever, many schools require a clean bill of health from a doctor to allow the kid back.. so how do we do this with a lice problem in a kid who cannot pass a comb through even one time a little bit just to show no eggs.

Having lice is not having a disease and they are removable with treatments. Clean and not so clean people get lice.

uh huh.. so? both the flu and lice are conditions that spread through proximity. What is the relevance of this distinction you make? are you trying to demonize people that catch the flu as 'DISEASED' (scary quotes).

 

[Malintent]

While getting rid of lice is much harder with dreads, it can be done.

Also, White people are the most likely race to get lice, and African Americans the least.
This is likely because whites have thinner follicles that the lice can grab onto easier.

And girls get it and spread it far more often, due to their longer hair. So, a ban on dreadlocks is no more (and arguably less) justified than a ban on long hair (even for girls), or requiring white people to have shorter hair than others.

OTOH, people with dreads are more likely to douse themselves in patchouli oil and that rank shit should be banned.

Ban men's body sprays first and then we'll talk.

lol.. but seriously, Ron, this is not about preventing lice being caught by someone with dreds. this is about preventing the spread of lice due to challenges treating it when the hair cannot be combed AT ALL (not that it is slightly difficult because it is curly... because it is impossible).
Also, why introduce a race issue when none is relevant? Dreds are just as ugly on men, women, blacks, whites, homeless, and rich... they usually smell bad too, thus the cologne... which also should be banned with all other non-deodorant artificial scents in school (and offices, IMO).

 

[Malintent]

I actually think that is a good idea... and for there to be sanctions of some kind against parents that send kids to school with a fever, while we're at it during this Flu season.
Shaved heads and uniforms... not the only institution to adopt an anti-individualism policy. Individualism is for College, not for grade school where you first need to learn HOW to learn.

That said, the hair types you mention can certainly be combed sufficiently to reveal any eggs.. .the problem is when the hair is braided, tied, dreaded, or otherwise made knotted beyond being able to be combed at all - even just medically.

- - - Updated - - -

You can theoretically remove lice and eggs by soaking dreads in alcohol. However, without combing, one cannot CONFIRM the eggs have been killed until they hatch (or don't).
So while one may be able to rid themselves of lice, they will not be able to get themselves back in school because a combing of the hair cannot be done to demonstrate removal or death of the eggs.

There are certain treatments that claim to treat the lice and their eggs such as MOOV Head Lice Solution, KP24 (and claims to protect against re-infestation).
Some other remedies, though they don't kill the eggs work if applied every three days to any type of hair. This would include some home remedies and as you mentioned the use of alcohol.

and how, after ALLEGED treatment by the parent at home, does the school confirm it is safe for the kid to return to the population without danger of spreading the problem? If a kid is sent home from school with a fever, many schools require a clean bill of health from a doctor to allow the kid back.. so how do we do this with a lice problem in a kid who cannot pass a comb through even one time a little bit just to show no eggs.

Having lice is not having a disease and they are removable with treatments. Clean and not so clean people get lice.

Yeah, lice are merely gross, not dangerous. Amusingly, many of the people that oppose keeping kids out of school that are a real danger to others because they haven't been vaccinated are likely to support keeping kids out of school for only some of the conveniently chosen hairstyles that might make it harder to get rid of lice if the person happens to get lice which are not dangerous.

interesting point... still, school uniforms (and the associated hairstyle restrictions, etc..) are resurging. Implementation of a set of standards that limit individualism in the classroom have proven to be effective and are coming back, especially in the UK recently. So, no need to make anti-dreeds about limiting access to school, but rather this should be a discussion about the value of setting certain standards that have historically proven a positive thing.

 

[ronburgundy]

I actually think that is a good idea... and for there to be sanctions of some kind against parents that send kids to school with a fever, while we're at it during this Flu season.
Shaved heads and uniforms... not the only institution to adopt an anti-individualism policy. Individualism is for College, not for grade school where you first need to learn HOW to learn.

That said, the hair types you mention can certainly be combed sufficiently to reveal any eggs.. .the problem is when the hair is braided, tied, dreaded, or otherwise made knotted beyond being able to be combed at all - even just medically.

- - - Updated - - -

You can theoretically remove lice and eggs by soaking dreads in alcohol. However, without combing, one cannot CONFIRM the eggs have been killed until they hatch (or don't).
So while one may be able to rid themselves of lice, they will not be able to get themselves back in school because a combing of the hair cannot be done to demonstrate removal or death of the eggs.

There are certain treatments that claim to treat the lice and their eggs such as MOOV Head Lice Solution, KP24 (and claims to protect against re-infestation).
Some other remedies, though they don't kill the eggs work if applied every three days to any type of hair. This would include some home remedies and as you mentioned the use of alcohol.

and how, after ALLEGED treatment by the parent at home, does the school confirm it is safe for the kid to return to the population without danger of spreading the problem? If a kid is sent home from school with a fever, many schools require a clean bill of health from a doctor to allow the kid back.. so how do we do this with a lice problem in a kid who cannot pass a comb through even one time a little bit just to show no eggs.

Having lice is not having a disease and they are removable with treatments. Clean and not so clean people get lice.

Yeah, lice are merely gross, not dangerous. Amusingly, many of the people that oppose keeping kids out of school that are a real danger to others because they haven't been vaccinated are likely to support keeping kids out of school for only some of the conveniently chosen hairstyles that might make it harder to get rid of lice if the person happens to get lice which are not dangerous.

interesting point... still, school uniforms (and the associated hairstyle restrictions, etc..) are resurging. Implementation of a set of standards that limit individualism in the classroom have proven to be effective and are coming back, especially in the UK recently. So, no need to make anti-dreeds about limiting access to school, but rather this should be a discussion about the value of setting certain standards that have historically proven a positive thing.

There is no way to limit hairstyles for the purpose of "uniformity" without essentially requiring everyone of both genders to shave their heads. If some kids cannot have dreads and cornrows, then others cannot use hairspray, get perms, use curling irons, etc.. Any attempt to allow some but not all "styles" will be arbitrary and inherently biased against some kids of some natural hair properties. Also, any restrictions (including length) that are not identical for boys and girls is inherently coercive in forcing gender norms that is unacceptable for public shchools in any society pretending to be something other than fascistic.

Besides, there is actually zero evidence that hair restrictions themselves do anything positive. Whatever evidence their is for "uniformity" effects entails countless different restrictions being implemented at once, many of them having nothing to do with appearance. So, no valid inferences can be drawn than any particular restriction does anything. They all might do a little, or one might do a lot and the others nothing or even have slightly negative impacts.

 

[dismal]

I actually think that is a good idea... and for there to be sanctions of some kind against parents that send kids to school with a fever, while we're at it during this Flu season.
Shaved heads and uniforms... not the only institution to adopt an anti-individualism policy. Individualism is for College, not for grade school where you first need to learn HOW to learn.

That said, the hair types you mention can certainly be combed sufficiently to reveal any eggs.. .the problem is when the hair is braided, tied, dreaded, or otherwise made knotted beyond being able to be combed at all - even just medically.

- - - Updated - - -

You can theoretically remove lice and eggs by soaking dreads in alcohol. However, without combing, one cannot CONFIRM the eggs have been killed until they hatch (or don't).
So while one may be able to rid themselves of lice, they will not be able to get themselves back in school because a combing of the hair cannot be done to demonstrate removal or death of the eggs.

There are certain treatments that claim to treat the lice and their eggs such as MOOV Head Lice Solution, KP24 (and claims to protect against re-infestation).
Some other remedies, though they don't kill the eggs work if applied every three days to any type of hair. This would include some home remedies and as you mentioned the use of alcohol.

and how, after ALLEGED treatment by the parent at home, does the school confirm it is safe for the kid to return to the population without danger of spreading the problem? If a kid is sent home from school with a fever, many schools require a clean bill of health from a doctor to allow the kid back.. so how do we do this with a lice problem in a kid who cannot pass a comb through even one time a little bit just to show no eggs.

Having lice is not having a disease and they are removable with treatments. Clean and not so clean people get lice.

Yeah, lice are merely gross, not dangerous. Amusingly, many of the people that oppose keeping kids out of school that are a real danger to others because they haven't been vaccinated are likely to support keeping kids out of school for only some of the conveniently chosen hairstyles that might make it harder to get rid of lice if the person happens to get lice which are not dangerous.

interesting point... still, school uniforms (and the associated hairstyle restrictions, etc..) are resurging. Implementation of a set of standards that limit individualism in the classroom have proven to be effective and are coming back, especially in the UK recently. So, no need to make anti-dreeds about limiting access to school, but rather this should be a discussion about the value of setting certain standards that have historically proven a positive thing.

There is no way to limit hairstyles for the purpose of "uniformity" without essentially requiring everyone of both genders to shave their heads. If some kids cannot have dreads and cornrows, then others cannot use hairspray, get perms, use curling irons, etc.. Any attempt to allow some but not all "styles" will be arbitrary and inherently biased against some kids of some natural hair properties. Also, any restrictions (including length) that are not identical for boys and girls is inherently coercive in forcing gender norms that is unacceptable for public shchools in any society pretending to be something other than fascistic.

Besides, there is actually zero evidence that hair restrictions themselves do anything positive. Whatever evidence their is for "uniformity" effects entails countless different restrictions being implemented at once, many of them having nothing to do with appearance. So, no valid inferences can be drawn than any particular restriction does anything. They all might do a little, or one might do a lot and the others nothing or even have slightly negative impacts.

You don't see to grasp the whole concept of free association well. In a free society I don't need a scientific proof to hire the people I want to hire, or reject a job I want to reject. It's my call, not yours.

 

[ronburgundy]

Ban men's body sprays first and then we'll talk.

lol.. but seriously, Ron, this is not about preventing lice being caught by someone with dreds. this is about preventing the spread of lice due to challenges treating it when the hair cannot be combed AT ALL (not that it is slightly difficult because it is curly... because it is impossible).

Again, it is simply false that lice treatment is impossible with dreads, only more difficult and requiring a different method of treatment and of verification that the lice are gone.
And again, if it is about treatment, then that only justifies requiring the dreads be cut after lice is detected, not an a priori ban on dreads. Such an a priori ban requires clear evidence that dreads in particular, moreso than all non-banned hairstyles, significantly increases the odds of an infestation within a population.

No such evidence exists, and in fact, the evidence suggests the opposite. Dreads and other hairstyles or natually occurring hair types that do not lend themselves to combing technique of typical lice treatment are far more common among blacks than whites. Yet blacks are the least likely group to experience lice breakouts and whites the most likely group. This is true regardless of country (US or Africa), and the opposite of what is predicted by your theory that such hairstyles increase the odds of lice breakouts.
The fact is that lice grab onto individual strands of hair, and the current scientific theory is that they can better grab onto and flourish within the kind of straight narrow-shaft hair follicles most common among whites and least among blacks. IOW, they flourish in precisely the type of hair that a fine tooth comb could be run through. In fact, combing of hair is one way the lice get transferred to others.
Thus, the clumped together non-individuated follicles of dreads, even among whites, makes a lice infestation less likely to occur, even if that same property makes it harder to treat once it does occur.

So, again, if anything the science supports forcing all people with fine straight hair to keep their hair short, more than it supports banning dreads or other uncombable hairstyles.

Also, why introduce a race issue when none is relevant? Dreds are just as ugly on men, women, blacks, whites, homeless, and rich...

It inherently becomes a race issue because your are selectively targeting hairstyles that are strongly associated with race, despite the science showing that its actually the typical hairstyles of whites that are far more fertile ground for lice breakouts. Non-medical bias is the only explanation for that.

they usually smell bad too, thus the cologne... which also should be banned with all other non-deodorant artificial scents in school (and offices, IMO).

Why only "non-deodorant"? Plenty of supposed deodorants are strong and more unpleasant than the body odor they pretend to mask.
You cannot just arbitrarily ban some artificial scents and not others. Only a ban on all artificial scents, including all scented deodorants could be justifiable. Some standardized, objective criteria would need to be used to determine whether a scent, no matter its marketed purpose surpassed some threshold of impact on others to warrant being disallowed. The loudest objectors to such regulations would be the GOP, and not because they care about personal liberty, but because the bribes they get from the multi-billion dollar scent industry.