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United States officially rejoins Paris climate agreement

https://www.state.gov/the-united-states-officially-rejoins-the-paris-agreement/

Excellent. Now my fellow French commies are going to take over America and send all conservatives to the gulags. I am a happy man today. I must learn more French to prepare.

Better if you've learnt Chinese.
They are the global leaders in cheap sustainable energy.

The French are ahead of the USA. But, then again, so is almost everyone. The Chinese, with their huge and directed economy, are going to kick ass in this department. USA and Russia could, but they won't because the rich and powerful there benefit too much from the fossil fuel status quo.

The power elite in the USA don't want to upset their gravy train. Russia also.
Chinese elite aren't so tied to the current status quo concerning energy policy.

Tom
 
https://www.state.gov/the-united-states-officially-rejoins-the-paris-agreement/

Excellent. Now my fellow French commies are going to take over America and send all conservatives to the gulags. I am a happy man today. I must learn more French to prepare.

Better if you've learnt Chinese.
They are the global leaders in cheap sustainable energy.

The French are ahead of the USA. But, then again, so is almost everyone. The Chinese, with their huge and directed economy, are going to kick ass in this department. USA and Russia could, but they won't because the rich and powerful there benefit too much from the fossil fuel status quo.

The power elite in the USA don't want to upset their gravy train. Russia also.
Chinese elite aren't so tied to the current status quo concerning energy policy.

Tom

The more languages I learn, the merrier. A true globalist commie (such as myself) would be an expert in multiple languages.
 
https://www.state.gov/the-united-states-officially-rejoins-the-paris-agreement/

Excellent. Now my fellow French commies are going to take over America and send all conservatives to the gulags. I am a happy man today. I must learn more French to prepare.

Better if you've learnt Chinese.
They are the global leaders in cheap sustainable energy.

The French are ahead of the USA. But, then again, so is almost everyone. The Chinese, with their huge and directed economy, are going to kick kicking ass in this every department. USA and Russia could, but they won't because the rich and powerful there benefit too much from the fossil fuel status quo.

The power elite in the USA don't want to upset their gravy train. Russia also.
Chinese elite aren't so tied to the current status quo concerning energy policy.

Tom

The only thing the US can still do better than China is printing fiat currency better. Yes we are great at making billionaires who produce nothing. We used to be better at making war but even this will change when we forget how to manufacture weapons.

And this is too bad. Because many of our freedoms taken for granted will obviously be gone as the CCP takes over the world in the near future.
 
https://www.state.gov/the-united-states-officially-rejoins-the-paris-agreement/

Excellent. Now my fellow French commies are going to take over America and send all conservatives to the gulags. I am a happy man today. I must learn more French to prepare.

A nothing agreement that means nothing that no one was following anyway. Who cares?

The point? Why, the point is communism, of course! (And sending conservatives to gulags). :)
 
I'll celebrate when I see the results. And by results I mean I'll be hard pressed to find a way to consume environmentally unfriendly stuff just as tough as it is to consume environmentally friendly stuff today.
 
That study is from 2018. But, 16 is better than zero. Agreeing to try to be part of the solution is a positive step forward. Refusing to be part of the solution sends the wrong message to the rest of the world and helps to isolate the US on climate change initiatives.
All true. Countries that want to send the right message to the rest of the world agree to try to be part of the solution. Countries that want to limit global warming build nuclear reactors.
 
That study is from 2018. But, 16 is better than zero. Agreeing to try to be part of the solution is a positive step forward. Refusing to be part of the solution sends the wrong message to the rest of the world and helps to isolate the US on climate change initiatives.
All true. Countries that want to send the right message to the rest of the world agree to try to be part of the solution. Countries that want to limit global warming build nuclear reactors.

^ What he said.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYWUykIKY0k[/youtube]

Note that nuclear France and Sweden (along with hydro Norway and geothermal Iceland) are consistently green, while wind and solar Germany, having spent a vast fortune on their Energiewiende, is mostly brown and ugly.

If Germany had spent half of their Energiewiende funds on nuclear power, and kept the rest in the bank, they would be as green as France. But they didn't, so they're not.

Wind and solar are the thoughts and prayers of climate change mitigation.
 
That study is from 2018. But, 16 is better than zero. Agreeing to try to be part of the solution is a positive step forward. Refusing to be part of the solution sends the wrong message to the rest of the world and helps to isolate the US on climate change initiatives.
All true. Countries that want to send the right message to the rest of the world agree to try to be part of the solution. Countries that want to limit global warming build nuclear reactors.

^ What he said.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYWUykIKY0k[/youtube]

Note that nuclear France and Sweden (along with hydro Norway and geothermal Iceland) are consistently green, while wind and solar Germany, having spent a vast fortune on their Energiewiende, is mostly brown and ugly.

If Germany had spent half of their Energiewiende funds on nuclear power, and kept the rest in the bank, they would be as green as France. But they didn't, so they're not.

Wind and solar are the thoughts and prayers of climate change mitigation.
Wind and solar in the right places produce electricity at lower operating costs than nuclear power. Wind and solar can be part of an important mix of electric power that mitigates anthropomorphic climate change.
 
Wind and solar are the thoughts and prayers of climate change mitigation.
Wind and solar in the right places produce electricity at lower operating costs than nuclear power. Wind and solar can be part of an important mix of electric power that mitigates anthropomorphic climate change.
Wasn't that what ended the Medieval Warm Period?

f1b76faf1ea282d2be5aed3562248f1d.jpg


People are saying it's still in operation...

WeatherOnSteroidsL.jpg


But here on TFT you'd think we'd all know anthropomorphic climate change is a myth. ;)
 
^ What he said.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYWUykIKY0k[/youtube]

Note that nuclear France and Sweden (along with hydro Norway and geothermal Iceland) are consistently green, while wind and solar Germany, having spent a vast fortune on their Energiewiende, is mostly brown and ugly.

If Germany had spent half of their Energiewiende funds on nuclear power, and kept the rest in the bank, they would be as green as France. But they didn't, so they're not.

Wind and solar are the thoughts and prayers of climate change mitigation.
Wind and solar in the right places produce electricity at lower operating costs than nuclear power. Wind and solar can be part of an important mix of electric power that mitigates anthropomorphic climate change.

Wind and solar only have lower operating costs when you consider electricity as a commodity.

Electricity is a service. Time of delivery is arguably more important than cost; certainly it cannot be dismissed as a non-issue.

Wind and solar generate lots of cheap electricity at times when wholesale prices are very low, or even negative. They generate almost no electricity when wholesale prices are high.

This would render them economically unviable, but typically they are given contracted minimum prices, and/or despatch priority. So power companies have to pay top dollar for wind and solar power, when they don't really want it; and as a result they set even lower prices for power from other sources. This distortion of markets favours gas, and severely disfavours coal and nuclear.

Nuclear power costs more than wind or solar; But you can be sure to have it on a windless night. That's worth something - but the market is prohibited from responding to that value.

Germany shows the result. Very high electricity prices, high carbon emissions, and reliance on neighbours (particularly France, with her nuclear plants) to keep the lights on when the wind isn't blowing and the sun isn't shining.
 
^ What he said.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYWUykIKY0k[/youtube]

Note that nuclear France and Sweden (along with hydro Norway and geothermal Iceland) are consistently green, while wind and solar Germany, having spent a vast fortune on their Energiewiende, is mostly brown and ugly.

If Germany had spent half of their Energiewiende funds on nuclear power, and kept the rest in the bank, they would be as green as France. But they didn't, so they're not.

Wind and solar are the thoughts and prayers of climate change mitigation.
Wind and solar in the right places produce electricity at lower operating costs than nuclear power. Wind and solar can be part of an important mix of electric power that mitigates anthropomorphic climate change.

Wind and solar only have lower operating costs when you consider electricity as a commodity.

Electricity is a service. Time of delivery is arguably more important than cost; certainly it cannot be dismissed as a non-issue.

Wind and solar generate lots of cheap electricity at times when wholesale prices are very low, or even negative. They generate almost no electricity when wholesale prices are high.
The cost of generating electricity does not depend on the wholesale price, so I do not understand your point as stated. I believe you have the implied causation in the wrong direction - wholesale prices for electricity are low when there is lots of wind and solar electricity and wholesale prices are high when there is not.

I did not write that wind and solar should completely replace other forms of electric power. Right now, that would be foolish. Just like it would be foolish to embrace nuclear power and forego wind and solar power altogether. But wind and solar power can supplement nuclear power (and maybe someday in the far future, replace it) without the risks from nuclear power.
 
Wind and solar only have lower operating costs when you consider electricity as a commodity.

Electricity is a service. Time of delivery is arguably more important than cost; certainly it cannot be dismissed as a non-issue.

Wind and solar generate lots of cheap electricity at times when wholesale prices are very low, or even negative. They generate almost no electricity when wholesale prices are high.
The cost of generating electricity does not depend on the wholesale price, so I do not understand your point as stated. I believe you have the implied causation in the wrong direction - wholesale prices for electricity are low when there is lots of wind and solar electricity and wholesale prices are high when there is not.

I did not write that wind and solar should completely replace other forms of electric power. Right now, that would be foolish. Just like it would be foolish to embrace nuclear power and forego wind and solar power altogether. But wind and solar power can supplement nuclear power (and maybe someday in the far future, replace it) without the risks from nuclear power.

The risks from wind power are about the same as from nuclear (though nucear has a slight edge); Solar is rather riskier than either. So what, exactly, would be the benefit of replacing nuclear with wind or solar "one day", assuming that it ever becomes practical to do so?

As to cost vs price, it doesn't matter which way the causation operates; The result is that wind and solar cost more than they are worth, except when they're not actually available, at which time it doesn't matter how cheap they are.

Making ice cream is really cheap in the depths of winter. But nobody wants to buy it. Making ice cream in summer is more expensive, but there's a market for it. Wind and solar are like making ice cream without refrigerators - you can do it, very cheaply, but only when the market is small and easily saturated. If you want ice cream in the summer, you need refrigeration. Now, you could make ice cream cheaply in winter, and then store it until summer; But if you're going to use refrigeration, you might as well use it to make ice cream when the demand is there.

Refrigeration in this analogy is another power source - gas, nuclear, coal, or hydroelectric.

Wind and solar in small amounts, and in niche applications, are fine. But trying to generate more than about 15% of your electricity from these sources just causes more harm than good. As the Germans have clearly demonstrated.

If wind and solar could be made to produce sufficient electricity for a developed nation with low greenhouse gas emissions and at a reasonable cost, then the VAST investment in them by Germany would have done this by now. But German electricity isn't low emissions, and it isn't cheap. Observation trumps theory; France has cheaper and cleaner electricity than Germany, and it's therefore obvious that to get cheap clean power, we need to emulate the French model, not the German one.

We need not theorise that wind and solar might be better; The experiment has been done. In a decade, nuclear power can drop CO2 emissions from the electricity generation sector well below 100gCO2eq./kWh. With more than twice the capital investment, and over more than twice the time, wind and solar have utterly failed to achieve close to that level of emissions reductions.

Results matter. Emissions matter. Costs matter. Not cherry-picked results; Nationwide results from real countries in the real world. If wind and solar could do as well as nuclear, then they would have. And they haven't.

They're not as cheap. Not as safe. Not as reliable. And not as clean.

Perhaps they are cheap, safe, and clean on their own; But they are reliably intermittent, and intermittent supply needs something to fill the gaps. That's not something that can reasonably be ignored or swept under the rug.

Nuclear power can do it all. It's better than the alternatives, on almost every measure. Only fossil fuels come close to matching nuclear for reliability, but we have (I assume) agreement that the emissions problem they pose is insurmountable.

Intermittent renewable power generation implies and requires something else for when there's no wind, or no sunshine. Right now, the only really viable somethings are gas, and to a lesser extent, coal. Which are exactly the things we are trying to get rid of.

Batteries will fix the problem. If they get six or seven orders of magnitude better and cheaper, and if we can make vast numbers of such batteries without destroying the environment to do it. This, like controlled fusion power, is at least twenty years away, and always will be.

If you want safe, clean and reliable electricity, you want nuclear power.

Electricity that's safe and clean, but not reliable, isn't a solution to the problem of powering our civilisation without destroying our environment, because while it may manage the second part, it fails to achieve the first.
 
The cost of generating electricity does not depend on the wholesale price, so I do not understand your point as stated. I believe you have the implied causation in the wrong direction - wholesale prices for electricity are low when there is lots of wind and solar electricity and wholesale prices are high when there is not.

I did not write that wind and solar should completely replace other forms of electric power. Right now, that would be foolish. Just like it would be foolish to embrace nuclear power and forego wind and solar power altogether. But wind and solar power can supplement nuclear power (and maybe someday in the far future, replace it) without the risks from nuclear power.

You are completely missing the point here.

1) Wind and solar can't replace a single watt of nuclear power. Nuclear reactors have a very slow throttle and their fuel costs are a tiny part of their total cost--the reality is you don't change the power setting on your reactor in response to changing demand. Your solar fields and windmills will have no effect on the reactor's operation. Renewables replace fossil fuels, mostly natural gas.

2) While I'm finding one analysis that shows nuclear as more dangerous than solar and wind none of their numbers line up with what I have seen elsewhere and they are counting deaths due to the misguided evacuation of Fukushima against nuclear. (Japan counts 573 deaths from the evacuation. The expected death toll of staying put was less than one.) Every other analysis I have seen puts nuke safer than renewables.

3) The reality is that the cost of electric power is a combination of two things--the cost of the plants and the cost of running them. Price changes based on demand are due to plants that are cheap to build but expensive to run.

4) As Bilby keeps pointing out, electricity is a service. A terawatt of solar won't light a nightlight.
 
The risks from wind power are about the same as from nuclear (though nucear has a slight edge); Solar is rather riskier than either. So what, exactly, would be the benefit of replacing nuclear with wind or solar "one day", assuming that it ever becomes practical to do so?
The risks of deadly disasters are roughly the same for solar and wind as they are fir nuclear? Do tell.
bilby said:
As to cost vs price, it doesn't matter which way the causation operates; The result is that wind and solar cost more than they are worth, except when they're not actually available, at which time it doesn't matter how cheap they are....
I don’t understand your obsession with German policy since I did not endorse it nor promote it. Nor have I proposed or implied that wind and solar piwer can or should be the sole sources of power. Nor have I advocated getting rid of nuclear power.
 
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