US number 2 in prisoners per capita: liberty defending GOP Senator says that's not high enough

[untermensche]

I pledge allegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America.
And to the republic
for which it stands.
One nation
under God
Indivisible
with liberty
and justice
for all.

don't you?

I'm Ok with liberty for all, but then taking away after they commit a violent crime. Not an uncommon position, I think.

Poverty and the drug war are the biggest cause of violent crime.

It's a shame you are not as opposed to the forces creating poverty, a non-unionized workforce where workers have no power and top down dictatorial institutions that send work to the poorest labor market possible, as much as you want to lock up the victims.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Here's numbers from last year in state prisons

1.3 million total

Drug offenses is 49K
other drug is 160

so it's something like 16%

Violent crime is 707K
Property crime is 247K

Public order is 140K

So if we did cut out the drug crimes but replaced them in prison with doubling the violent crime we would have more people in jail even getting rid of drug offenses and public order offenses

 

[arkirk]

Here's numbers from last year in state prisons

1.3 million total

Drug offenses is 49K
other drug is 160

so it's something like 16%

Violent crime is 707K
Property crime is 247K

Public order is 140K

So if we did cut out the drug crimes but replaced them in prison with doubling the violent crime we would have more people in jail even getting rid of drug offenses and public order offenses

Where did you get these numbers?

 

[ksen]

But for a serious answer it's not that I have a problem with Cotton's concerns about how few actual criminals are in prison. The problem I have is that he can just throw out there that we have an under-incarceration problem when we're second in the world when it comes to how many people we have in prison already. He's ignoring the fact that there are far too many people in our prison system right now that shouldn't be there in order to make room for actually violent criminals.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Here's numbers from last year in state prisons

1.3 million total

Drug offenses is 49K
other drug is 160

so it's something like 16%

Violent crime is 707K
Property crime is 247K

Public order is 140K

So if we did cut out the drug crimes but replaced them in prison with doubling the violent crime we would have more people in jail even getting rid of drug offenses and public order offenses

Where did you get these numbers?

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/03/04/how-to-cut-the-prison-population-by-50-percent#.TLwoZjesM

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Pay attention to what he's actually saying: That we don't catch enough criminals. The odds of getting away with a crime are too high.

 

[Axulus]

I pledge allegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America.
And to the republic
for which it stands.
One nation
under God
Indivisible
with liberty
and justice
for all.

don't you?

I'm Ok with liberty for all, but then taking away after they commit a violent crime. Not an uncommon position, I think.

In all cases? Even a drunken bar fight that doesn't seriously injure the other guy? Why not a fine and community service for minor violent offenses?

Also, I'm for 100% incarceration rate for serious violent offenders, but the sentences for many are absurdly long. Most people when they reach their late 30's and 40's have vastly reduced violent tendancies, and even older people less still. Many sentences should be reduced in length and there should be much better mental health care and rehabilitation programs in prison, not no mention crime within the prisons themselves needs to be drastically reduced.

- - - Updated - - -

Pay attention to what he's actually saying: That we don't catch enough criminals. The odds of getting away with a crime are too high.

But that doesn't imply we have an under-incarceration problem. We could have a problem of not catching all the criminals but still have prison sentences that are way too long and also use prison as the penalty for these crimes way more often than we should.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Pay attention to what he's actually saying: That we don't catch enough criminals. The odds of getting away with a crime are too high.

Not being able to solve a crime (life isn't like Bones) and being under-incarcerated are two different things.

 

[Elixir]

Poverty and the drug war are the biggest cause of violent crime.

I'd say income inequality and drug laws... minor distinctions.

It's a shame you are not as opposed to the forces creating poverty

Without those forces, "we" wouldn't have the money to lock up so many people.

 

[ksen]

I'm Ok with liberty for all, but then taking away after they commit a violent crime. Not an uncommon position, I think.

In all cases? Even a drunken bar fight that doesn't seriously injure the other guy? Why not a fine and community service for minor violent offenses?

Also, I'm for 100% incarceration rate for serious violent offenders, but the sentences for many are absurdly long. Most people when they reach their late 30's and 40's have vastly reduced violent tendancies, and even older people less still. Many sentences should be reduced in length and there should be much better mental health care and rehabilitation programs in prison, not no mention crime within the prisons themselves needs to be drastically reduced.

- - - Updated - - -

Pay attention to what he's actually saying: That we don't catch enough criminals. The odds of getting away with a crime are too high.

But that doesn't imply we have an under-incarceration problem. We could have a problem of not catching all the criminals but still have prison sentences that are way too long and also use prison as the penalty for these crimes way more often than we should.

:fistbump:

 

[untermensche]

I'd say income inequality and drug laws... minor distinctions.

It's a shame you are not as opposed to the forces creating poverty

Without those forces, "we" wouldn't have the money to lock up so many people.

Laws can do nothing.

It is the enforcement of those laws that is everything.

 

[Bronzeage]

Let's be honest with ourselves. Senator Tom is not worried criminals or incarceration. He just felt a need to press the fear and anger button. That's what this is really all about.

The GOP has been pushing the F&A button for many years. Anyone remember Willie Horton? It's kind of a variation on the "solution to the gun problem is more guns" thing. When it's become plain that a high incarceration rate is not solving the problem, the obvious answer is more incarceration.

 

[KeepTalking]

Where did you get these numbers?

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/03/04/how-to-cut-the-prison-population-by-50-percent#.TLwoZjesM

Wow. You should not have tried paraphrasing and doing the math yourself, and just quoted The Marshall Project. I wondered what you meant by "Drug offenses" and "other drug", reading the link informs the reader that the terms should have been "Drug Possession" and "Other Drug Offenses" respecitvely. But you still got it wrong by rounding the number of incarcerated from 1,315,000 to 1.3 million, and then applying the percentages given to the rounded number, so the number of those in prison for Drug Possession (your "Drug offenses") goes from 52,600 down to 49k.

Here is the relevant portion from the link you provided, entirely un-mangled:

Consider the nation’s largest incarcerated population, the 1,315,000 held in state prisons. Only 4 percent are there for drug possession. An additional 12 percent are incarcerated for drug sales, manufacturing, or trafficking. Eleven percent are there for public order offenses such as prostitution or drunk driving, and 19 percent for property crimes such as fraud and car theft, including some property crimes that many consider serious or violent, such as home invasion. That leaves a full 54 percent of state prisoners who are incarcerated for violent crimes, including murder, kidnapping, manslaughter, rape, sexual assault, and armed robbery.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Yeah give the guy a break.

It's not easy to create a climate of fear in an era of falling crime.

 

[dismal]

I'm Ok with liberty for all, but then taking away after they commit a violent crime. Not an uncommon position, I think.

But what's the point? It's not like you have lower crime rates than other countries with lower levels of incarceration, so it's not all that valid to assume that higher rates of incarceration would suddenly just start to work to reduce crime.

You are against imprisoning violent criminals too? What would you do with them?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Let's be honest with ourselves. Senator Tom is not worried criminals or incarceration. He just felt a need to press the fear and anger button. That's what this is really all about.

The GOP has been pushing the F&A button for many years. Anyone remember Willie Horton? It's kind of a variation on the "solution to the gun problem is more guns" thing. When it's become plain that a high incarceration rate is not solving the problem, the obvious answer is more incarceration.

I think that what we need is more guns in prison.

 

[dismal]

But for a serious answer it's not that I have a problem with Cotton's concerns about how few actual criminals are in prison. The problem I have is that he can just throw out there that we have an under-incarceration problem when we're second in the world when it comes to how many people we have in prison already. He's ignoring the fact that there are far too many people in our prison system right now that shouldn't be there in order to make room for actually violent criminals.

He specifically ties the "underincarceration problem" to and only to actual criminals who are not caught and imprisoned. One literally follows right after the other in the quote provided.

 

[Ford]

You are against imprisoning violent criminals too?

You have accumulated an impressive amount of straw in such a short time in this thread, and have done a fantastic job making it look very man-like. Congratulations!

 

[dismal]

I'm Ok with liberty for all, but then taking away after they commit a violent crime. Not an uncommon position, I think.

In all cases? Even a drunken bar fight that doesn't seriously injure the other guy? Why not a fine and community service for minor violent offenses?

Fines and forced community service things are infringements on liberty too.

But no, I do not think all crimes should necessarily be punished with prison sentences. Nor does the OP quote suggest that.

 

[ksen]

But for a serious answer it's not that I have a problem with Cotton's concerns about how few actual criminals are in prison. The problem I have is that he can just throw out there that we have an under-incarceration problem when we're second in the world when it comes to how many people we have in prison already. He's ignoring the fact that there are far too many people in our prison system right now that shouldn't be there in order to make room for actually violent criminals.

He specifically ties the "underincarceration problem" to and only to actual criminals who are not caught and imprisoned. One literally follows right after the other in the quote provided.

And?

Like I said, I don't have a problem with him pointing out we have a problem catching all violent criminals. I have a problem with him just dismissing out of hand that we currently have too many people in prison. And then using that as a reason to fight against the passage of a crime reform bill whose passage has nothing to do with how effective police departments are at catching criminals.

The Land of the Free and Home of the Brave should not be leading the world in population imprisoned.