US wants other NATO members to spend more on Defence

[untermensche]

The alleged purpose of NATO was to stop the Russian hoard from taking Western Europe.

As we see that was a bunch of lies from the government.

The purpose of NATO is to allow the US to more easily meddle in Europe and the Middle East.

Europeans do not want the US in Europe.

Some of their so-called leaders do.

Basically, NATO extended our nuclear umbrella to our friends that didn't have bombs of their own. By keeping Russia from going after only those who didn't have bombs it kept the peace.

NATO was a way of extending US power into the region.

It was set up by the US for the US.

And the nations that agreed to it didn't agree to it by democratic vote.

The people there never wanted the US there.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Trump is merely doing this as part of his job to destabilize NATO. IF he were drawing down our military budget and bringing troops home, etc. he may possibly have a point. Unfortunately, since Trump took office, the defense budget will have grown by $133 billion, or 23 percent. Insane.

 

[laughing dog]

The alleged purpose of NATO was to stop the Russian hoard from taking Western Europe.

As we see that was a bunch of lies from the government.

The purpose of NATO is to allow the US to more easily meddle in Europe and the Middle East.

Europeans do not want the US in Europe.

Some of their so-called leaders do.

Basically, NATO extended our nuclear umbrella to our friends that didn't have bombs of their own. By keeping Russia from going after only those who didn't have bombs it kept the peace.

NATO was a way of extending US power into the region.

It was set up by the US for the US.

And the nations that agreed to it didn't agree to it by democratic vote.

The people there never wanted the US there.

Except now, countries like Latvia, Poland etc... want the US there. And I strongly suspect that if Ukraine were part of NATO, Russia would not have invaded Crimea or meddled in Ukraine.

 

[untermensche]

NATO was a way of extending US power into the region.

It was set up by the US for the US.

And the nations that agreed to it didn't agree to it by democratic vote.

The people there never wanted the US there.

Except now, countries like Latvia, Poland etc... want the US there. And I strongly suspect that if Ukraine were part of NATO, Russia would not have invaded Crimea or meddled in Ukraine.

Countries?

You mean the people or the "leaders"?

The history of Europe is "leaders" going against the wishes of their people to please the US all the time.

The US is a menace with a lot of strings.

The people don't want any part of it.

 

[laughing dog]

NATO was a way of extending US power into the region.

It was set up by the US for the US.

And the nations that agreed to it didn't agree to it by democratic vote.

The people there never wanted the US there.

Except now, countries like Latvia, Poland etc... want the US there. And I strongly suspect that if Ukraine were part of NATO, Russia would not have invaded Crimea or meddled in Ukraine.

Countries?

You mean the people or the "leaders"?

The history of Europe is "leaders" going against the wishes of their people to please the US all the time.

The US is a menace with a lot of strings.

The people don't want any part of it.

The process for admission to NATO takes years, so the citizenry of any country had years to make their wishes known on this matter. Do you have any evidence the leaders of those countries were acting against the wishes of their people at the time they joined NATO?

As for the US as a menace, I suspect that if one polled the Finns or the Latvians., Estonians or the Poles, Russia would win out as their number one threat.

 

[Jayjay]

Putin is moving forward on annexing eastern Ukraine:

Vladimir Putin told Russian diplomats that he made a proposal to Donald Trump at their summit this week to hold a referendum to help resolve the conflict in eastern Ukraine, but agreed not to disclose the plan publicly so the U.S. president could consider it, according to two people who attended Putin’s closed-door speech on Thursday.

...

Putin’s proposal would call for a vote conducted under international auspices by the residents of the separatist territories on their status, the people said. Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov declined to comment on the details of what Putin said about Ukraine at the summit, saying only, “Some new ideas were discussed. They will be worked on.”

...

Putin’s proposal will alarm Ukrainian officials after Trump last week appeared to leave open the possibility of recognizing Russia’s 2014 annexation of Crimea, which triggered the crisis that led to fighting in eastern Ukraine’s Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Ukraine has offered the areas autonomy under its rule and backs the deployment of international peacekeepers in the region.

Yep. Another "referendum" under the auspices of Russian military and their puppets. Guess what the outcome would be? And when that's done, Russia is going to move to the next area where they'll organize an uprising and so on, because nobody stopped them the last two times. This is why Ukraine wishes it was in NATO. Of course none of this really matters to the US, least of all its orangutang in chief who have all but thrown Ukraine under the bus.

 

[ZiprHead]

Countries?

You mean the people or the "leaders"?

The history of Europe is "leaders" going against the wishes of their people to please the US all the time.

The US is a menace with a lot of strings.

The people don't want any part of it.

The process for admission to NATO takes years, so the citizenry of any country had years to make their wishes known on this matter. Do you have any evidence the leaders of those countries were acting against the wishes of their people at the time they joined NATO?

As for the US as a menace, I suspect that if one polled the Finns or the Latvians., Estonians or the Poles, Russia would win out as their number one threat.

Montenegrans (Montenegros?) don't have to worry about that any longer. Bonespurs is willing to toss them under the bus.

My guess is Trump never heard of Montenegro before until Putin told him in the private meeting he wanted it.

 

[Jayjay]

My guess is Trump never heard of Montenegro before until Putin told him in the private meeting he wanted it.

And probably conceded it right away because he's got his hands full with negros in America already.

 

[barbos]

If I were pro-never-ending-NATO-expansion I would try to avoid mentioning Montenegro, because it illustrates how US tries to grab all countries where Russia had any kind of good will left. Idea is that Russia must be isolated and have no friends and eventually be reduced to complete insignificance.

 

[barbos]

Putin is moving forward on annexing eastern Ukraine:

Vladimir Putin told Russian diplomats that he made a proposal to Donald Trump at their summit this week to hold a referendum to help resolve the conflict in eastern Ukraine, but agreed not to disclose the plan publicly so the U.S. president could consider it, according to two people who attended Putin’s closed-door speech on Thursday.

...

Putin’s proposal would call for a vote conducted under international auspices by the residents of the separatist territories on their status, the people said. Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov declined to comment on the details of what Putin said about Ukraine at the summit, saying only, “Some new ideas were discussed. They will be worked on.”

...

Putin’s proposal will alarm Ukrainian officials after Trump last week appeared to leave open the possibility of recognizing Russia’s 2014 annexation of Crimea, which triggered the crisis that led to fighting in eastern Ukraine’s Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Ukraine has offered the areas autonomy under its rule and backs the deployment of international peacekeepers in the region.

Yep. Another "referendum" under the auspices of Russian military and their puppets. Guess what the outcome would be? And when that's done, Russia is going to move to the next area where they'll organize an uprising and so on, because nobody stopped them the last two times. This is why Ukraine wishes it was in NATO. Of course none of this really matters to the US, least of all its orangutang in chief who have all but thrown Ukraine under the bus.

I don't believe you honestly believe that Crimeans really wanted to stay in Ukraine.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The alleged purpose of NATO was to stop the Russian hoard from taking Western Europe.

As we see that was a bunch of lies from the government.

The purpose of NATO is to allow the US to more easily meddle in Europe and the Middle East.

Europeans do not want the US in Europe.

Some of their so-called leaders do.

Basically, NATO extended our nuclear umbrella to our friends that didn't have bombs of their own. By keeping Russia from going after only those who didn't have bombs it kept the peace.

NATO was a way of extending US power into the region.

It was set up by the US for the US.

And the nations that agreed to it didn't agree to it by democratic vote.

The people there never wanted the US there.

Where's your evidence of this?

Hint: While there typically has been some objection to military bases the hosts normally see them has a plus. Hint: Look at what happened with Puerto Rico. They didn't like our bombing ranges. Ok, we stopped bombing--and then they found that no bombing ranges = no military base = lost money. They weren't happy!

Don't be mislead by leftist-lead protests against military bases. Those are mostly coming from Moscow. The manipulation of the 2016 election is far from their first meddling.

 

[Jayjay]

Putin is moving forward on annexing eastern Ukraine:

Vladimir Putin told Russian diplomats that he made a proposal to Donald Trump at their summit this week to hold a referendum to help resolve the conflict in eastern Ukraine, but agreed not to disclose the plan publicly so the U.S. president could consider it, according to two people who attended Putin’s closed-door speech on Thursday.

...

Putin’s proposal would call for a vote conducted under international auspices by the residents of the separatist territories on their status, the people said. Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov declined to comment on the details of what Putin said about Ukraine at the summit, saying only, “Some new ideas were discussed. They will be worked on.”

...

Putin’s proposal will alarm Ukrainian officials after Trump last week appeared to leave open the possibility of recognizing Russia’s 2014 annexation of Crimea, which triggered the crisis that led to fighting in eastern Ukraine’s Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Ukraine has offered the areas autonomy under its rule and backs the deployment of international peacekeepers in the region.

Yep. Another "referendum" under the auspices of Russian military and their puppets. Guess what the outcome would be? And when that's done, Russia is going to move to the next area where they'll organize an uprising and so on, because nobody stopped them the last two times. This is why Ukraine wishes it was in NATO. Of course none of this really matters to the US, least of all its orangutang in chief who have all but thrown Ukraine under the bus.

I don't believe you honestly believe that Crimeans really wanted to stay in Ukraine.

Whether they wanted or not doesn't negate the fact that the referendum was a sham. And it's worse in eastern Ukraine. Unlike in Crimea, the Russian-speaking people were a minority. Now most of the Ukrainians are internally displaced refugees, and I don't think Putin would allow them to vote, so any referendum in Donetsk and Luhansk would be utterly unrepresentative.

 

[barbos]

I don't believe you honestly believe that Crimeans really wanted to stay in Ukraine.

Whether they wanted or not doesn't negate the fact that the referendum was a sham.

No more sham than current Ukrainian government. But I am glad you agree that new non shammy referendum would confirm old one.

And it's worse in eastern Ukraine.

You imply that it was bad in Crimea.

Unlike in Crimea, the Russian-speaking people were a minority.

Ehhhh, nope, russian speaking are majority in eastern Ukraine. In fact russian speaking are majority even among current ukrainian government. Some rabidly anti-russian characters in the government don't speak ukrainian language at all, I mean they don't even try to learn it.

Now most of the Ukrainians are internally displaced refugees, and I don't think Putin would allow them to vote, so any referendum in Donetsk and Luhansk would be utterly unrepresentative.

You are putting too much into this idea of Putin trying to annex Ukraine. Nobody really wants Ukraine. Russia simply can not afford bankrupt country at least at present time. EU does not want for the same reason and US only wants to use Ukraine as a way to undermine Russia.
This EU association thing was even bigger lie than I thought initially. EU is not interested in trade with Ukraine other than to take their wood. EU demands to open Ukrainian market and not opening their own at all, again except unprocessed wood. Maybe it will somehow change in the future but I expected more from EU.

 

[untermensche]

NATO was a way of extending US power into the region.

It was set up by the US for the US.

And the nations that agreed to it didn't agree to it by democratic vote.

The people there never wanted the US there.

Where's your evidence of this?

Hint: While there typically has been some objection to military bases the hosts normally see them has a plus. Hint: Look at what happened with Puerto Rico. They didn't like our bombing ranges. Ok, we stopped bombing--and then they found that no bombing ranges = no military base = lost money. They weren't happy!

Don't be mislead by leftist-lead protests against military bases. Those are mostly coming from Moscow. The manipulation of the 2016 election is far from their first meddling.

The people do not want the US there.

Nowhere.

Only "leaders" that don't listen to their own people allowed it.

 

[Jayjay]

No more sham than current Ukrainian government. But I am glad you agree that new non shammy referendum would confirm old one.

That wouldn't prove anything either. After several years of Russian rule it has become status quo, and people are more likely to vote for no change. It's quite plausible that if there had been a proper referendum, the result could have been for Crimea to leave, but that would mean also proper chance for the opposition to campaign, free press, and a properly formulated ballot. There were so many things wrong with the sham referendum that it's not unthinkable that the result could have been different also.

And it's worse in eastern Ukraine.

You imply that it was bad in Crimea.

I meant from demographic point of view. Yes, it's bad in Crimea because those who didn't want to be part of Russia got shafted (democratically or not). But it's worse in eastern Ukraine because those people would more likely have been a majority.

Unlike in Crimea, the Russian-speaking people were a minority.

Ehhhh, nope, russian speaking are majority in eastern Ukraine. In fact russian speaking are majority even among current ukrainian government. Some rabidly anti-russian characters in the government don't speak ukrainian language at all, I mean they don't even try to learn it.

I can't be bothered to find the demographic maps right now, so I have to let this slide.

ETA: Anyway, if what you say is true, then there should be no problem to allow the displaced refugees to vote, now would there?

Now most of the Ukrainians are internally displaced refugees, and I don't think Putin would allow them to vote, so any referendum in Donetsk and Luhansk would be utterly unrepresentative.

You are putting too much into this idea of Putin trying to annex Ukraine. Nobody really wants Ukraine. Russia simply can not afford bankrupt country at least at present time. EU does not want for the same reason and US only wants to use Ukraine as a way to undermine Russia.
This EU association thing was even bigger lie than I thought initially. EU is not interested in trade with Ukraine other than to take their wood. EU demands to open Ukrainian market and not opening their own at all, again except unprocessed wood. Maybe it will somehow change in the future but I expected more from EU.

I never said Putin wants to annex Ukraine, just the fleshy parts in the east. And maybe a land bridge to Crimea.

 

[Jayjay]

NATO was a way of extending US power into the region.

It was set up by the US for the US.

And the nations that agreed to it didn't agree to it by democratic vote.

The people there never wanted the US there.

Where's your evidence of this?

Hint: While there typically has been some objection to military bases the hosts normally see them has a plus. Hint: Look at what happened with Puerto Rico. They didn't like our bombing ranges. Ok, we stopped bombing--and then they found that no bombing ranges = no military base = lost money. They weren't happy!

Don't be mislead by leftist-lead protests against military bases. Those are mostly coming from Moscow. The manipulation of the 2016 election is far from their first meddling.

The people do not want the US there.

Nowhere.

Only "leaders" that don't listen to their own people allowed it.

Citation needed.

 

[barbos]

That wouldn't prove anything either. After several years of Russian rule it has become status quo, and people are more likely to vote for no change. It's quite plausible that if there had been a proper referendum, the result could have been for Crimea to leave, but that would mean also proper chance for the opposition to campaign, free press, and a properly formulated ballot.

You are severely deluded if you think that.
Also, as if pro-russian opposition had all that in the last ukrainian presidential elections. They beat the guy up and then removed any remaining security from the candidate. Not at a sound about that in western media.

There were so many things wrong with the sham referendum that it's not unthinkable that the result could have been different also.

You are deluded.If you think result would have been different.

You imply that it was bad in Crimea.

I meant from demographic point of view. Yes, it's bad in Crimea because those who didn't want to be part of Russia got shafted (democratically or not). But it's worse in eastern Ukraine because those people would more likely have been a majority.

90% were shafted in 1992. Now 10% shafted, what is worse?

Unlike in Crimea, the Russian-speaking people were a minority.

Ehhhh, nope, russian speaking are majority in eastern Ukraine. In fact russian speaking are majority even among current ukrainian government. Some rabidly anti-russian characters in the government don't speak ukrainian language at all, I mean they don't even try to learn it.

I can't be bothered to find the demographic maps right now, so I have to let this slide.

You do realize that eastern Ukraine is a former Russia which was "gifted" to Ukraine after revolution 1917?

ETA: Anyway, if what you say is true, then there should be no problem to allow the displaced refugees to vote, now would there?

What are you talking about? Nobody was displaced, there are people who left because they could. And most of them left for Russia I understand

Now most of the Ukrainians are internally displaced refugees, and I don't think Putin would allow them to vote, so any referendum in Donetsk and Luhansk would be utterly unrepresentative.

You are putting too much into this idea of Putin trying to annex Ukraine. Nobody really wants Ukraine. Russia simply can not afford bankrupt country at least at present time. EU does not want for the same reason and US only wants to use Ukraine as a way to undermine Russia.
This EU association thing was even bigger lie than I thought initially. EU is not interested in trade with Ukraine other than to take their wood. EU demands to open Ukrainian market and not opening their own at all, again except unprocessed wood. Maybe it will somehow change in the future but I expected more from EU.

I never said Putin wants to annex Ukraine, just the fleshy parts in the east.

There is nothing fleshy about Eastern Ukraine, just a bunch of miners who would become unemployed if they get attached to Russia.
EU lied to Ukraine,

And maybe a land bridge to Crimea.

That would take more than eastern Ukraine but I heard such ideas.

 

[untermensche]

The people do not want the US there.

Nowhere.

Only "leaders" that don't listen to their own people allowed it.

Citation needed.

So you are going to start reading about this now?

No population ever voted to allow the US to meddle.

Nobody asked for the US to meddle.

NATO was for the US.

Not for Europe.

The Europeans don't want it.

But there are no direct democracies in Europe.

 

[Jayjay]

The people do not want the US there.

Nowhere.

Only "leaders" that don't listen to their own people allowed it.

Citation needed.

So you are going to start reading about this now?

No population ever voted to allow the US to meddle.

Nobody asked for the US to meddle.

NATO was for the US.

Not for Europe.

The Europeans don't want it.

But there are no direct democracies in Europe.

There have been referendums for NATO membership. For example Hungary:

A referendum on joining NATO was held in Hungary on 16 November 1997. The proposal was approved by 85.3% of voters, with a voter turnout of 49.2%.

In Montenegro, NATO membership was an issue in parliamentary elections, and the party that favored joining won.

 

[barbos]

So you are going to start reading about this now?

No population ever voted to allow the US to meddle.

Nobody asked for the US to meddle.

NATO was for the US.

Not for Europe.

The Europeans don't want it.

But there are no direct democracies in Europe.

There have been referendums for NATO membership. For example Hungary:

A referendum on joining NATO was held in Hungary on 16 November 1997. The proposal was approved by 85.3% of voters, with a voter turnout of 49.2%.

When you know you have support you can have a referendum.

In Montenegro, NATO membership was an issue in parliamentary elections, and the party that favored joining won.

When you know you can't win in referendum you put it for vote in parliament you helped to elect.
Montenegro is your typical Balkan country, bunch of people who hate each other (serbs, albanians and bosniaks) and run by gangsters. All civilized NATO guys need to do is close their noses and buy right guys election victory.