US wants other NATO members to spend more on Defence

[Harry Bosch]

If I were pro-never-ending-NATO-expansion I would try to avoid mentioning Montenegro, because it illustrates how US tries to grab all countries where Russia had any kind of good will left. Idea is that Russia must be isolated and have no friends and eventually be reduced to complete insignificance.

What friends do Russia have? Belarus, which is like North Korea Lite, but in Europe. The murderous dictator Bashar al-Assad in Syria.
Democratic countries rarely seek closer connections with Russia.

Exactly, plan is working.

It's not that the west wants to contain or hurt Russia. It's that they don't want Russia to invade any more countries.

 

[untermensche]

Exactly, plan is working.

It's not that the west wants to contain or hurt Russia. It's that they don't want Russia to invade any more countries.

Europeans consider the US a greater threat to peace than Russia.

They are trying to figure out how to contain the insanity of the US.

The US terrorist attack of Iraq has caused problems for many nations. It was an incredibly destructive act.

For no good reason.

Except of course to feed the Military Industrial Complex.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

NATO expands because people are afraid of the Russian bear. Don't like NATO expansion, quit invading your neighbors!

- - - Updated - - -

So NATO says.

NATO doesn't make people join, they ask to join. And note what the bear has already eaten.

If Russia could have won an honest election why did they have a dishonest one?

Who said they had dishonest one?

Their election didn't even offer the situation before the invasion as an option.

 

[Tammuz]

Exactly, plan is working.

It's not that the west wants to contain or hurt Russia. It's that they don't want Russia to invade any more countries.

Europeans consider the US a greater threat to peace than Russia.

Citation needed.

Meanwhile, you might consider the case of Iceland. It is a long-time NATO member, the only one without a standing army. By treaty, the US will defend Iceland in the case of war. The last American troops left the country in 2006. Yet a few years ago, as Iceland became concerned with Russian activity around the island. This prompted the return of American troops, and agreement between the governments of Iceland and the US:

Iceland agrees to the return of American troops

U.S. military returns to Iceland

In September 2017, Sweden hosted a military exercise called Aurora 17, together with the US, France, Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, Norway, and Germany, sending a message to Russia.

 

[Tammuz]

If I were pro-never-ending-NATO-expansion I would try to avoid mentioning Montenegro, because it illustrates how US tries to grab all countries where Russia had any kind of good will left. Idea is that Russia must be isolated and have no friends and eventually be reduced to complete insignificance.

What friends do Russia have? Belarus, which is like North Korea Lite, but in Europe. The murderous dictator Bashar al-Assad in Syria.
Democratic countries rarely seek closer connections with Russia.

Exactly, plan is working.

It's not a plan. It's that the US, despite its flaws, is a democracy, and a long-time friend of the European democracies. Russia is neither of these, it is just a bully.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I've served overseas in Korea and Italy, with TDYs to other locations.

There are people there who don't want the US in their country, true. There are also people, not just the politicians, who like us there. And there are businesses that don't care that we are US troops but do care a lot that we are spending our money there and really like that a LOT. Blanket declarations that we are not wanted are bunk.

 

[untermensche]

Europeans consider the US a greater threat to peace than Russia.

Citation needed.

Meanwhile, you might consider the case of Iceland. It is a long-time NATO member, the only one without a standing army. By treaty, the US will defend Iceland in the case of war. The last American troops left the country in 2006. Yet a few years ago, as Iceland became concerned with Russian activity around the island. This prompted the return of American troops, and agreement between the governments of Iceland and the US:

Iceland agrees to the return of American troops

U.S. military returns to Iceland

In September 2017, Sweden hosted a military exercise called Aurora 17, together with the US, France, Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, Norway, and Germany, sending a message to Russia.

That is not an agreement with Iceland.

It is an agreement with the government, not the people.

And it is a huge bribe.

Upgrading of Icelandic military installations in exchange.

If I had to list all the protests against the US presence in Europe it would take 100 more pages.

 

[Tammuz]

It is an agreement with the democratically elected government of Iceland. The 2nd most democratic country of the world, as it happens.

How do you expect an agreement "with the people" to be made? Ask every single Icelander, and one opposing voice gets a veto?

 

[Jayjay]

Exactly, plan is working.

It's not that the west wants to contain or hurt Russia. It's that they don't want Russia to invade any more countries.

Europeans consider the US a greater threat to peace than Russia.

No we don't.

 

[untermensche]

Europeans consider the US a greater threat to peace than Russia.

No we don't.

I think you represent a minority opinion.

If you don't think the US is more destructive then don't ever cry about the refugee problem in Europe.

It was directly caused by the US terrorist attack of Iraq and decade long terrorist occupation.

A war that spilled over into Syria with the creation of a strengthened ISIS, thanks to the US invasion, and still rages.

 

[Tammuz]

Europeans consider the US a greater threat to peace than Russia.

No we don't.

I think you represent a minority opinion.

Do we ever get to see your data?

If you don't think the US is more destructive then don't ever cry about the refugee problem in Europe.

It was directly caused by the US terrorist attack of Iraq and decade long terrorist occupation.

A war that spilled over into Syria with the creation of a strengthened ISIS, thanks to the US invasion, and still rages.

The refugee crisis was caused by the war in Syria, which started almost a decade after the Iraq War. And the Syrian regime has killed more than 90% of the dead civilians in the war. You know, the regime propped up by Iran and Russia.

The Syrian Civil War was not started by IS, but by the regime shooting at protesters, who eventually started to shoot back. IS came later.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Europeans consider the US a greater threat to peace than Russia.

Citation needed.

Meanwhile, you might consider the case of Iceland. It is a long-time NATO member, the only one without a standing army. By treaty, the US will defend Iceland in the case of war. The last American troops left the country in 2006. Yet a few years ago, as Iceland became concerned with Russian activity around the island. This prompted the return of American troops, and agreement between the governments of Iceland and the US:

Iceland agrees to the return of American troops

U.S. military returns to Iceland

In September 2017, Sweden hosted a military exercise called Aurora 17, together with the US, France, Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, Norway, and Germany, sending a message to Russia.

That is not an agreement with Iceland.

It is an agreement with the government, not the people.

Please describe the process to get an agreement with the people.

Before you answer, I did not pass a moral judgement on this issue. This is purely a question of technical details. Accusing me of being against such a thing when I merely ask for technical details is not an answer.

 

[untermensche]

I think you represent a minority opinion.

Do we ever get to see your data?

If you don't think the US is more destructive then don't ever cry about the refugee problem in Europe.

It was directly caused by the US terrorist attack of Iraq and decade long terrorist occupation.

A war that spilled over into Syria with the creation of a strengthened ISIS, thanks to the US invasion, and still rages.

The refugee crisis was caused by the war in Syria, which started almost a decade after the Iraq War. And the Syrian regime has killed more than 90% of the dead civilians in the war. You know, the regime propped up by Iran and Russia.

The Syrian Civil War was not started by IS, but by the regime shooting at protesters, who eventually started to shoot back. IS came later.

Started a decade after?

The US terrorist invasion took place in 2003 and the terrorist occupation lasted until 2011.

So the war in Syria started in 2021?

Since you are completely blind I can understand how you fear Russia more than the US.

And without a powerful ISIS, a US creation, the war in Syria would have been completely different.

 

[untermensche]

That is not an agreement with Iceland.

It is an agreement with the government, not the people.

Please describe the process to get an agreement with the people.

National referendum after extensive non-biased education.

That is now during the hero-worship phase of human development.

Once the majority of humans get past the psychological need for a big daddy, many are past that now, then direct democracy will be possible.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

That is not an agreement with Iceland.

It is an agreement with the government, not the people.

Please describe the process to get an agreement with the people.

National referendum after extensive non-biased education.

That is now during the hero-worship phase of human development.

Once the majority of humans get past the psychological need for a big daddy, many are past that now, then direct democracy will be possible.

Fascinating. I can see how it can be abused, though. Who decides when to call a vote, who manages the education, and who pays for the vote, for example.

 

[untermensche]

National referendum after extensive non-biased education.

That is now during the hero-worship phase of human development.

Once the majority of humans get past the psychological need for a big daddy, many are past that now, then direct democracy will be possible.

Fascinating. I can see how it can be abused, though. Who decides when to call a vote, who manages the education, and who pays for the vote, for example.

Who decides?

The US says it wants to move in.

You vote on it.

Amazing how simple things suddenly become so complicated to some when you remove dictators.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Ah. But suppose ...

Suppose the majority is in favor of it by a large enough margin to satisfy even you, but not unanimous. Whomever is responsible for calling and organizing the vote is against it though. So he fails to call a vote, therefore there is no vote for the US to move in, therefore the US doesn't move in. Even as simple a system as you describe can be manipulated.

 

[barbos]

Europeans consider the US a greater threat to peace than Russia.

No we don't.

Even with Trump?
Of course Europe thinks that, but that only because they are allies with US against Russia. Russians think opposite to that because US think what they think. Fact is, NATO should have been reformed after dissolution of USSR and Russia should have been integrated into EU and NATO in some kind or form. None of that happened because NATO needed the enemy to explain their existence. And please don't give me that Ukraine crap. Ukraine crap happened much later when Russia has already been assigned a role of an enemy and NATO occupation of Ukraine became part of the long term plan of reducing Russia to insignificance.

 

[untermensche]

Ah. But suppose ...

Suppose the majority is in favor of it by a large enough margin to satisfy even you, but not unanimous. Whomever is responsible for calling and organizing the vote is against it though. So he fails to call a vote, therefore there is no vote for the US to move in, therefore the US doesn't move in. Even as simple a system as you describe can be manipulated.

Of course there will be problems. Humans in the world is a bunch of problems.

But it will be democracy.

Not pretend democracy.

 

[Jayjay]

I think you represent a minority opinion.

Do we ever get to see your data?

No.

It's hard to find a specific poll that would put US and Russia against each other on European level, but I found a local poll that had a question "What's the biggest security threat right now to you and your family" and "What is the biggest security threat to Finland". Among the options were "Russian militarization" and "US America-First policy". In both questions Russian option was before the American one, and in the latter question the Russia was first among all listed threats.

I doubt untermensch has any data to back up his colorful imagination. Very few people in Europe consider America to be a security threat, at least not compared to Russia. The closer to Russia a country is, the less they like it, which is very telling.