Utah lawmaker questions whether sex with an unconscious person is rape ‘in every instance’

[Keith&Co.]

i am and i do. And unconscious intimacy is not consented.

I meant "you" informally. If one is married, the rules should be pretty well understood between one another.

Same thing. It would be up to the married couple to establish if consent is consented, not me, not a given lawmaker in Utah.
I suppose it could be a block on the driver's license.
Organ donor [ ]
Corrective lenses [x]
Unconscious sex accepted:
[x]within marital bounds
[ ]opposite genders only
[x]no cameras

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I meant "you" informally. If one is married, the rules should be pretty well understood between one another.

Same thing. It would be up to the married couple to establish if consent is consented, not me, not a given lawmaker in Utah.
I suppose it could be a block on the driver's license.
Organ donor [ ]
Corrective lenses [x]
Unconscious sex accepted:
[x]within marital bounds
[ ]opposite genders only
[x]no cameras

Naw, just a sticker like organ donators.

 

[bilby]

If you are married you should have a good idea if it is consented or not.

i am and i do. And unconscious intimacy is not consented.

That's why i said it should be assessed on a couple-by-couple basis, not assumed by the law based on marital status.

I do have relatives that think there's no such thing as 'spouse rape' because 'she gave away the right to say no when she took a husband.' Many of those relatives live in Utah, by strange coincidence.

I also have (well, technically, had) relatives that think there's no such thing as 'spouse rape' because 'she gave away the right to say no when she took a husband.' All of those relatives lived before WWII though.

 

[RavenSky]

And it's not possible for a long-term partner to have a blanket presumption of consent???

It's possible.
I think it would have to be establised on a couple-by-couple basis, though. And independent of whether they're married, dating, living together, going steady, or still waiting to be formally introduced.
Some may have a 'waking up to sex' fantasy, or a 'sex with a sleeping partner' fantasy.

But the quoted lawmaker seems to want consent to be assumed along with wedding vows. I don't think that's a reasonable assumption.

^^^ that

 

[scombrid]

...double

 

[scombrid]

"If an individual has sex with their wife while she is unconscious ... a prosecutor could then charge that spouse with rape, theoretically,"

If she didn't consent, yep. If you are going to have sex with somebody that is out cold then you'd better have permission first, even if it is your wife. She might just get mad about it otherwise.

I reckon that a couple could have years of experience together in which there is standing consent to this. But if hubby decided to penetrate wifey while she's out and she doesn't like it then he really is raping her.

Personally I don't think I'd ever wake my partner with my dick in her. I really prefer that she be present, consious, and participating. I've woken her by kissing her neck and trying to arouse her but the thought never occurred that I'd want to have sex with her while she is out. It has happened where one of us is horny as hell and the other isn't and the horny partner never demands sex from the other. We screw almost daily but there are days when one of us might be too damned tired and say no. Even if you have consensual sex with somebody so much that your dick gets sore sometimes, no still means no.

 

[Rhea]

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2136918-155/utah-lawmakers-debate-how-to-define

A Utah measure seeking to make that legal clarification won early approval in a state legislative committee Tuesday, but some lawmakers qualified their support, questioning whether the law would designate sex with an unconscious spouse as rape.

"If an individual has sex with their wife while she is unconscious ... a prosecutor could then charge that spouse with rape, theoretically," said Rep. Brian Greene, R-Pleasant Grove."That makes sense in a first date scenario, but to me, not where people have a history of years of sexual activity."

See, the idiocy of this guy's statement is that he is trying to portray that he will somehow get in trouble when his wife is perfectly fine with it.

And if this is what he's worried about, he should please explain how the prosecutor would know!?
Is he fantasizing that the prosecutor is going to be in his bedroom? And will press charges even against the wishes of the wife?

He doesn't seem to get that charges will never be filed UNLESS SHE OBJECTS, in which case IT WAS RAPE and SHOULD BE prosecuted.

And if he's worried that someday she might file charges... why, he should not do that, now should he.

Duh.

 

[Jarhyn]

The issue comes when you have two people sleeping together naked and it's happened befor that it was OK. He takes his advantage (or she does) and then the other person freaks out for whatever reason.

We really need a way to express 'sex that wasn't consensual, but wasn't particularly traumatic either'. Because we currently have one degree of 'sex that wasn't consensual' linguistically, but that word culturally embeds the assumption of 'was deeply traumatic'. As per 1984 newspeak, our language isnt even capable of expressing that idea in a way that is functional for discussions.

Not every sex with an unconscious (or even a drunk) person is nonconsensual, and not every nonconsensual sex should be considered (and charged as) rape.

That said, there is no way to get to where we should be from where we are in western (or any other extant) culture. It's all fucked and it probably won't get any better for the next few centuries. So whatever.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And it's not possible for a long-term partner to have a blanket presumption of consent???

It's possible.
I think it would have to be establised on a couple-by-couple basis, though. And independent of whether they're married, dating, living together, going steady, or still waiting to be formally introduced.
Some may have a 'waking up to sex' fantasy, or a 'sex with a sleeping partner' fantasy.

But the quoted lawmaker seems to want consent to be assumed along with wedding vows. I don't think that's a reasonable assumption.

Agreed, that's not reasonable. It has to be case-by-case.

- - - Updated - - -

i am and i do. And unconscious intimacy is not consented.

That's why i said it should be assessed on a couple-by-couple basis, not assumed by the law based on marital status.

I do have relatives that think there's no such thing as 'spouse rape' because 'she gave away the right to say no when she took a husband.' Many of those relatives live in Utah, by strange coincidence.

I also have (well, technically, had) relatives that think there's no such thing as 'spouse rape' because 'she gave away the right to say no when she took a husband.' All of those relatives lived before WWII though.

Actually, in general I would say there is no such thing as spouse rape. In the context of a normal sexual relationship sex isn't a great insult, thus why should the law single this out? That's not to say it shouldn't be a crime, but to me it's assault & battery.

 

[bilby]

It's possible.
I think it would have to be establised on a couple-by-couple basis, though. And independent of whether they're married, dating, living together, going steady, or still waiting to be formally introduced.
Some may have a 'waking up to sex' fantasy, or a 'sex with a sleeping partner' fantasy.

But the quoted lawmaker seems to want consent to be assumed along with wedding vows. I don't think that's a reasonable assumption.

Agreed, that's not reasonable. It has to be case-by-case.

- - - Updated - - -

i am and i do. And unconscious intimacy is not consented.

That's why i said it should be assessed on a couple-by-couple basis, not assumed by the law based on marital status.

I do have relatives that think there's no such thing as 'spouse rape' because 'she gave away the right to say no when she took a husband.' Many of those relatives live in Utah, by strange coincidence.

I also have (well, technically, had) relatives that think there's no such thing as 'spouse rape' because 'she gave away the right to say no when she took a husband.' All of those relatives lived before WWII though.

Actually, in general I would say there is no such thing as spouse rape. In the context of a normal sexual relationship sex isn't a great insult, thus why should the law single this out? That's not to say it shouldn't be a crime, but to me it's assault & battery.

I thought you lived in Nevada, not Utah

 

[Draconis]

If it's not rape, then what is it?

 

[fast]

Sometimes my wife falls asleep while I'm in the middle of having sex with her. If I keep going, is that rape?

Whoa, she must fall asleep fast!

<groggily climbs up out of my rabbit hole in the ground half asleep>
<sticks head out and takes a peak to the left>
<yawns as I rotate my whisker lettuce eating head to the right>
<thought I heard something me thinks to meself>
<slowly wiggles back down the cozy wittle wabbit hole>
<softly sombers as I get comfy again>
<zzzz>

 

[Rhea]

Actually, in general I would say there is no such thing as spouse rape. In the context of a normal sexual relationship sex isn't a great insult, thus why should the law single this out? That's not to say it shouldn't be a crime, but to me it's assault & battery.

You are saying that all marriages have normal sexual relationships?
No spouses use sex to inflict trauma?

Really? You think that?

 

[fast]

A sleeping person isn't conscious, but is a sleeping person unconscious? People can get knocked unconscious or pass out drunk, but it seems weird to regard being asleep as being unconscious, but hey, maybe it's just me.

I've made slow loving sex while my significant other and I were very tired, and one of us might snooze for a few seconds in the interim. I might here a faint snore, or I might be lightly shaken and found to have dozed for a short bit. Heck, one time we both fell asleep for a minute or two. That kind of situation might technically qualify, but a few seconds of such a soft and gentle nature could hardly qualify as an evil act of immoral rape.

Now, get into a wreck after a heated argument and find your wife lying unconscious with a head injury and decide all of a sudden you're horny, then yeah, that's a clusterfuck of mental shit going on right there.

 

[Jayjay]

Sometimes my wife falls asleep while I'm in the middle of having sex with her. If I keep going, is that rape?

No, because you had prior consent. Only thing you can be charged is in Man Court for making rest of us look bad, but even then the worst that can happen is probably a modest fine.

 

[Jayjay]

Naw, just a sticker like organ donators.

Makes for a great pick up line. "Hey babe, did you know I'm an organ donor? .. (pulls out the organ, with a sticker)"

Seriously though, I think that certain leeway should be made based on the extent of the "rape". A gentle massage is hardly the same as sticking your dick in one or more of your partner's orifices. And call me old fashioned but the standard should be a bit higher for men than women.

 

[Underseer]

Jihad! Jihad on Women! LILILILILILILI...

Oops. What I meant so say is that there is no such thing as a War on Women. The War on Women is just something we liberals made up because we hate America. Liberals are the ones who oppress women because Bill Clinton. Also, women are persecuting men. I deeply apologize for being politically incorrect in that first line, and I hope the rest of my post makes up for that.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Agreed, that's not reasonable. It has to be case-by-case.

- - - Updated - - -

i am and i do. And unconscious intimacy is not consented.

That's why i said it should be assessed on a couple-by-couple basis, not assumed by the law based on marital status.

I do have relatives that think there's no such thing as 'spouse rape' because 'she gave away the right to say no when she took a husband.' Many of those relatives live in Utah, by strange coincidence.

I also have (well, technically, had) relatives that think there's no such thing as 'spouse rape' because 'she gave away the right to say no when she took a husband.' All of those relatives lived before WWII though.

Actually, in general I would say there is no such thing as spouse rape. In the context of a normal sexual relationship sex isn't a great insult, thus why should the law single this out? That's not to say it shouldn't be a crime, but to me it's assault & battery.

I thought you lived in Nevada, not Utah

Huh? I do live in Nevada.

And note that I'm not saying that spousal rape shouldn't be a crime, I'm just questioning what crime.