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Venezuela--more evidence it's really about cronies rather than the people

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-to-default-few-people-seem-to-understand-why

Oops--a bunch of his cronies own a lot of the government bonds that by all logic they should default on.

I don't disagree.

The so-called leaders in Venezuela gave up on the goals and methods of Chavez a long time ago and have turned to looting.

It has nothing to do with any rational economic system.

You make the mistake of thinking there was a change. The only change we've seen is the inevitable outcome of Chavez' policies.
 
I don't disagree.

The so-called leaders in Venezuela gave up on the goals and methods of Chavez a long time ago and have turned to looting.

It has nothing to do with any rational economic system.

You make the mistake of thinking there was a change. The only change we've seen is the inevitable outcome of Chavez' policies.

You make the mistake here.

This has nothing to do with Chavez and none of this existed under Chavez.

There are corrupt capitalists all over the place too. There is one running for president.
 
You make the mistake of thinking there was a change. The only change we've seen is the inevitable outcome of Chavez' policies.

You make the mistake here.

This has nothing to do with Chavez and none of this existed under Chavez.

There are corrupt capitalists all over the place too. There is one running for president.

The cronies bought up the bonds after Chavez died?!?!
 
You make the mistake here.

This has nothing to do with Chavez and none of this existed under Chavez.

There are corrupt capitalists all over the place too. There is one running for president.

The cronies bought up the bonds after Chavez died?!?!

After Chavez died different people assumed control who were not Chavez.

What is so hard to understand?

And these people were as unprincipled as your average capitalist.
 
Whew! You two were dancing on the precipice of accord there for a moment.

There is a huge gap between us.

The current leadership in Venezuela has given up on the principles and methods of Chavez and many of them are just looting like you see in a capitalist third world nation.
 
Whew! You two were dancing on the precipice of accord there for a moment.

There is a huge gap between us.

The current leadership in Venezuela has given up on the principles and methods of Chavez and many of them are just looting like you see in a capitalist third world nation.
Maduro was the hand-picked successor to Chavez. Only "principle" he has been forced to part with is high price of oil.
 
There is a huge gap between us.

The current leadership in Venezuela has given up on the principles and methods of Chavez and many of them are just looting like you see in a capitalist third world nation.
Maduro was the hand-picked successor to Chavez. Only "principle" he has been forced to part with is high price of oil.

He may have been hand picked but that doesn't mean he is the same person.

Obviously he is not.
 
The cronies bought up the bonds after Chavez died?!?!

After Chavez died different people assumed control who were not Chavez.

What is so hard to understand?

And these people were as unprincipled as your average capitalist.

Which policies changed between Chavez and Maduro?

Which of Maduro's policies do you disagree with?
 
After Chavez died different people assumed control who were not Chavez.

What is so hard to understand?

And these people were as unprincipled as your average capitalist.

Which policies changed between Chavez and Maduro?

Which of Maduro's policies do you disagree with?

The same policies capitalist all over are doing when in power.

Pure theft from government coffers.
 
Whew! You two were dancing on the precipice of accord there for a moment.

There is a huge gap between us.

The current leadership in Venezuela has given up on the principles and methods of Chavez and many of them are just looting like you see in a capitalist third world nation.

The looting began over a decade ago under Chavez' watch under the currency exchange system he helped set up. $300 billion is missing:

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0VB26F

If your hero was unaware or uninvolved, then it is still gross negligence at best worthy of prison were he still alive.

If one wanted a system that made it easy to steal and hide massive amounts of public money to those with the right insider connections, one could hardly come up with a better system than this currency exchange system that Chavez helped set up and approved.
 
There is a huge gap between us.

The current leadership in Venezuela has given up on the principles and methods of Chavez and many of them are just looting like you see in a capitalist third world nation.

The looting began over a decade ago under Chavez' watch under the currency exchange system he helped set up. $300 billion is missing:

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0VB26F

If your hero was unaware or uninvolved, then it is still gross negligence at best worthy of prison were he still alive.

If one wanted a system that made it easy to steal and hide massive amounts of public money to those with the right insider connections, one could hardly come up with a better system than this currency exchange system that Chavez helped set up and approved.

He did not elaborate on who was responsible for the funds having gone missing and or who might have embezzled them.

These people are loyal to Chavez and his goals.

They are not blaming him for any of this.

And this has nothing to do with their Socialist Revolution.

People in government steal all the time.

Even in the US.
 
These people are loyal to Chavez and his goals.

They are not blaming him for any of this.

And this has nothing to do with their Socialist Revolution.

People in government steal all the time.

Even in the US.

Which is why you don't set up an unaccountable and nearly untraceable currency exchange system that allows said embezzlement of hundreds of billions to occur by politically favored people for over a decade. As the person who helped set up and approved that currency exchange system, and the person ultimately in charge of it, he definitely shares in some of the blame.

The fact that people in government steal all the time, and this is a known fact by anyone with basic knowledge, further strengthens my point about gross negligence.
 
These people are loyal to Chavez and his goals.

They are not blaming him for any of this.

And this has nothing to do with their Socialist Revolution.

People in government steal all the time.

Even in the US.

Which is why you don't set up an unaccountable and nearly untraceable currency exchange system that allows said embezzlement of hundreds of billions to occur by politically favored people for over a decade. As the person who helped set up and approved that currency exchange system, and the person ultimately in charge of it, he definitely shares in some of the blame.

The fact that people in government steal all the time, and this is a known fact by anyone with basic knowledge, further strengthens my point about gross negligence.

It isn't even known what happened or if anything happened.

But certainly that is not good.

The current Venezuelan government IMO has abandoned the work of Chavez and is just doing what governments in South and North America have been doing for a long time. Using power to enrich themselves.
 
These people are loyal to Chavez and his goals.

They are not blaming him for any of this.

And this has nothing to do with their Socialist Revolution.

People in government steal all the time.

Even in the US.

Which is why you don't set up an unaccountable and nearly untraceable currency exchange system that allows said embezzlement of hundreds of billions to occur by politically favored people for over a decade. As the person who helped set up and approved that currency exchange system, and the person ultimately in charge of it, he definitely shares in some of the blame.

The fact that people in government steal all the time, and this is a known fact by anyone with basic knowledge, further strengthens my point about gross negligence.

Your belated moralizing is a worthless exercise in the face of monumental problems in countries that have been constantly under attack by U.S. clandestine operations. The real problem with the Venezuelan revolution was that it did not purge american spies and operatives from the country and these operatives finally got about half their objectives realized. Your constant attacks on Chavez shows your ignorance of what he was facing all his life. Your concerns are always ideological and not based on realizing the existence of human needs and far less concerned with meeting them.

I have already pointed out that Venezuela's problem was relying on the petroleum economy too much. The fluctuations in oil prices pretty much put a crimp on the Venezuelan economy. This was in part because the people who assumed power after Chavez simply did not have the technological or organizational expertise to protect the country from the American capitalist vultures. Nothing that has happened in Venezuela should surprise anybody and all the parties involved are in some degree responsible for the unraveling of the economy. It is more a matter of ignorance than of intent. That to me makes a big difference.

Your rigid condemnation of every socialist regime in the world gives you away as a hidebound adherent of predatory capitalism and a slave to that ideology, unwilling to accept the changes we will be making in the form of even our government here in America. Capitalism is on its way out. With a balanced approach to change we need not go the way of Venezuela and also not pollute our entire world so human life becomes ever harder. What is wrong with your philosophy is that it demands that everybody in the world serve as their absolute master....money.
 
Which is why you don't set up an unaccountable and nearly untraceable currency exchange system that allows said embezzlement of hundreds of billions to occur by politically favored people for over a decade. As the person who helped set up and approved that currency exchange system, and the person ultimately in charge of it, he definitely shares in some of the blame.

The fact that people in government steal all the time, and this is a known fact by anyone with basic knowledge, further strengthens my point about gross negligence.

Your belated moralizing is a worthless exercise in the face of monumental problems in countries that have been constantly under attack by U.S. clandestine operations. The real problem with the Venezuelan revolution was that it did not purge american spies and operatives from the country and these operatives finally got about half their objectives realized. Your constant attacks on Chavez shows your ignorance of what he was facing all his life. Your concerns are always ideological and not based on realizing the existence of human needs and far less concerned with meeting them.

I have already pointed out that Venezuela's problem was relying on the petroleum economy too much. The fluctuations in oil prices pretty much put a crimp on the Venezuelan economy. This was in part because the people who assumed power after Chavez simply did not have the technological or organizational expertise to protect the country from the American capitalist vultures. Nothing that has happened in Venezuela should surprise anybody and all the parties involved are in some degree responsible for the unraveling of the economy. It is more a matter of ignorance than of intent. That to me makes a big difference.

Your rigid condemnation of every socialist regime in the world gives you away as a hidebound adherent of predatory capitalism and a slave to that ideology, unwilling to accept the changes we will be making in the form of even our government here in America. Capitalism is on its way out. With a balanced approach to change we need not go the way of Venezuela and also not pollute our entire world so human life becomes ever harder. What is wrong with your philosophy is that it demands that everybody in the world serve as their absolute master....money.

Your choices if you actually care about human flourishing and getting rid of poverty are Hong Kong style capitalism or Norweign style capitalism, or something in between. There is nothing outside of those options that has been sustainable and not fallen into complete dysfunction, corruption, and eventual misery.

Venezuela could've gone the way of Brazil, a leftist leaning capitalist system (that is not without problems, but is getting better over time), or Colombia, a more centrist capitalist system. There has been massive reductions in poverty in Brazil over the last twenty years, more so than Venezuela, and they are much better off. Colombia has also seen massive improvements and is poised for a bright future. No where near the human disaster that Venezuela is facing.
 
Your belated moralizing is a worthless exercise in the face of monumental problems in countries that have been constantly under attack by U.S. clandestine operations. The real problem with the Venezuelan revolution was that it did not purge american spies and operatives from the country and these operatives finally got about half their objectives realized. Your constant attacks on Chavez shows your ignorance of what he was facing all his life. Your concerns are always ideological and not based on realizing the existence of human needs and far less concerned with meeting them.

I have already pointed out that Venezuela's problem was relying on the petroleum economy too much. The fluctuations in oil prices pretty much put a crimp on the Venezuelan economy. This was in part because the people who assumed power after Chavez simply did not have the technological or organizational expertise to protect the country from the American capitalist vultures. Nothing that has happened in Venezuela should surprise anybody and all the parties involved are in some degree responsible for the unraveling of the economy. It is more a matter of ignorance than of intent. That to me makes a big difference.

Your rigid condemnation of every socialist regime in the world gives you away as a hidebound adherent of predatory capitalism and a slave to that ideology, unwilling to accept the changes we will be making in the form of even our government here in America. Capitalism is on its way out. With a balanced approach to change we need not go the way of Venezuela and also not pollute our entire world so human life becomes ever harder. What is wrong with your philosophy is that it demands that everybody in the world serve as their absolute master....money.

Your choices if you actually care about human flourishing and getting rid of poverty are Hong Kong style capitalism or Norweign style capitalism, or something in between. There is nothing outside of those options that has been sustainable and not fallen into complete dysfunction, corruption, and eventual misery.

Venezuela could've gone the way of Brazil, a leftist leaning capitalist system (that is not without problems, but is getting better over time), or Colombia, a more centrist capitalist system. There has been massive reductions in poverty in Brazil over the last twenty years, more so than Venezuela, and they are much better off. Colombia has also seen massive improvements and is poised for a bright future. No where near the human disaster that Venezuela is facing.

Neither of the choices you have suggested are anything new, nor is any of their advantages (Norway and HongKong) anything but unsustainable or the residue of colonization. You are at it again. The country that has consistently raised people out of abject poverty at amazingly high rate..China. At last count, that was a Communist country. Norway was able to defend its oil from outside forces and uses it for social purposes...kind of socialistic if you ask me. The Norwegians do not brag about their Capitalism. Both of the choices you gave were places with strategic significiance or effectively locally controlled natural resources...hardly available to most governments. Your choices certainly are not my ideas of things that have any likelihood of surviving very long.
 
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