Venezuela question

[dismal]

They are oil rich and business poor.

Correction: they have lots of oil in the ground, where it's worth nothing. They have dealt a huge blow to the nation's capacity to produce oil as well.

Yep. Oil rich and business poor....

Hmmm, maybe I didn't explain it well enough. You're not "oil rich" unless you can get it out of the ground.

When Chavez took over Venezuela oil production was about 3.5 million barrels per day. Now it's about 1.5 million bpd.

By contrast in the USA it was about 6 million bpd, and is now about 10 million bpd. Those 20 years were good times for oil producers.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why bring Chavez into it?

He had nothing to do with it.

There was no collapse when Chavez was in power.

You've said that before Baghdad Bob.

You're the one making the positive claims.

I can't prove a negative.

You have no evidence just worthless opinion.

There was no collapse under Chavez.

That is a fact.

As I said, Baghdad Bob. We could see things collapsing. You say there was no collapse because it hadn't hit bottom yet.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How could Chavez and Maduro have improved the situation for the impoverished without it having led to what it did today?

A few things:

Never adopt currency price controls, which destroyed companies that needed to import parts and supplies, who were not connected to the government. It is essentially a government give away to the wealthy, well connected government loyalists at the expense of everyone else, which did great damage to the private economy. Chavez implemented this.

Yup, because such radical socialism is always a cover for looting to give to the cronies.

Remove all other price controls on staples like food and toiletries. The price controls caused many companies to go bankrupt. Instead, provide low income people with stipends from tax revenue to pay for the goods.

But that would require money. Decreeing lower prices doesn't cost the government anything.

 

[untermensche]

You're the one making the positive claims.

I can't prove a negative.

You have no evidence just worthless opinion.

There was no collapse under Chavez.

That is a fact.

As I said, Baghdad Bob. We could see things collapsing. You say there was no collapse because it hadn't hit bottom yet.

You're lying.

The reason the US supported the coup against Chavez was because he prevented collapses.

The idiot capitalists and their system that constantly collapses said Venezuela would collapse for 12 years before it did.

They cried about collapse like chicken little.

And like a broken clock every once in a while they are correct.

But it didn't happen under Chavez.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Why bring Chavez into it?

He had nothing to do with it.

There was no collapse when Chavez was in power.

You've said that before Baghdad Bob.

You're the one making the positive claims.

I can't prove a negative.

You have no evidence just worthless opinion.

There was no collapse under Chavez.

That is a fact.

What is the source of your information? Most economists claim that Venezuela started to decline when Chavez starting implementing price controls, foreign currency controls (which created the incentives for the black market) and taking away private sector companies. These policies where in implemented in 2003, well before Maduro came to power.

 

[untermensche]

You're the one making the positive claims.

I can't prove a negative.

You have no evidence just worthless opinion.

There was no collapse under Chavez.

That is a fact.

What is the source of your information? Most economists claim that Venezuela started to decline when Chavez starting implementing price controls, foreign currency controls (which created the incentives for the black market) and taking away private sector companies. These policies where in implemented in 2003, well before Maduro came to power.

Show me this poll of "most economists".

There was no collapse under Chavez.

Every problem, the same problem capitalist nations have, was exaggerated and each was the end of the world.

There was very little sanity from the US about Venezuela when Chavez was in power.

A bunch of insane chickens running around as if they had no head.

Capitalists in and out of Venezuela tried to harm the economy the entire time Chavez was in power.

When they couldn't do that they shot people in the streets and launched a US backed coup.

 

[Axulus]

You're the one making the positive claims.

I can't prove a negative.

You have no evidence just worthless opinion.

There was no collapse under Chavez.

That is a fact.

What is the source of your information? Most economists claim that Venezuela started to decline when Chavez starting implementing price controls, foreign currency controls (which created the incentives for the black market) and taking away private sector companies. These policies where in implemented in 2003, well before Maduro came to power.

Show me this poll of "most economists".

There was no collapse under Chavez.

Every problem, the same problem capitalist nations have, was exaggerated and each was the end of the world.

There was very little sanity from the US about Venezuela when Chavez was in power.

A bunch of insane chickens running around as if they had no head.

Capitalists in and out of Venezuela tried to harm the economy the entire time Chavez was in power.

When they couldn't do that they shot people in the streets and launched a US backed coup.

It went from mostly functioning democracy and close to the wealthiest south American country to failed state and much poorer in just 20 years. Chavez planted those seeds.

Do you really not understand the extreme magnitude of difference in misery and despair between a functioning state that needs improvement and is a bit corrupt but mostly improves a little each year and as an occasional recession and subsequent recovery (Columbia and Brazil, for example) vs a failed state where people flee by the millions to escape starvation and violence, or are you just being intentionally dishonest? Venezuela is a human catastrophe of the magnitude of Syria, and yet there was no war that caused it. It was almost entirely self inflicted.

 

[untermensche]

Do you know what an apartheid state is?

 

[Axulus]

Do you know what an apartheid state is?

The answer to government discrimination is to stop the discrimination and give compensation for any rights violations, not shift to a leftist, anti-democratic authoritarian state that is bound to end in destruction. Additionally, inequality got worse under Chavez. And now, poverty is worse, 20 years later. So much for wealth redistribution and dismantaling the apartheid state.

 

[untermensche]

Chavez was democratically elected. It was not an authoritarian state.

He tried to rectify the deep problems from decades of an apartheid state.

The capitist scum in Venezuela that ran that apartheid state didn't like that.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

How could Chavez and Maduro have improved the situation for the impoverished without it having led to what it did today?

They destroyed the productive capacity of a nation. That doesn't help anyone.

So, the answer would be along the lines of enhancing (or at least preserving) the productive capacity of the nation while making use of the wealth created thereby to lift the poor.

Pretty much.

 

[untermensche]

Why some Americans care if a bunch of scumbag capitalists get to steal from workers and discriminate based on ethnicity in Venezuela is beyond me.

Some Americans cheer for any scumbag as long as he swears he loves capitalism and desires to pay workers as little as possible.

They are hyper-focused on Venezuela yet can't seem to see capitalist Haiti and capitalist Guatemala or capitalist Mexico.

Their selective vision is amazing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're the one making the positive claims.

I can't prove a negative.

You have no evidence just worthless opinion.

There was no collapse under Chavez.

That is a fact.

As I said, Baghdad Bob. We could see things collapsing. You say there was no collapse because it hadn't hit bottom yet.

You're lying.

The reason the US supported the coup against Chavez was because he prevented collapses.

The idiot capitalists and their system that constantly collapses said Venezuela would collapse for 12 years before it did.

They cried about collapse like chicken little.

And like a broken clock every once in a while they are correct.

But it didn't happen under Chavez.

We said it would collapse. We said it was collapsing. We gave the means of the collapse, we didn't give a date it would be collapsed by. We batted 100%.

You denied there was a problem until they admitted it had hit bottom. You batted 0%.

 

[untermensche]

You're lying.

The reason the US supported the coup against Chavez was because he prevented collapses.

The idiot capitalists and their system that constantly collapses said Venezuela would collapse for 12 years before it did.

They cried about collapse like chicken little.

And like a broken clock every once in a while they are correct.

But it didn't happen under Chavez.

We said it would collapse. We said it was collapsing. We gave the means of the collapse, we didn't give a date it would be collapsed by. We batted 100%.

You denied there was a problem until they admitted it had hit bottom. You batted 0%.

You are lying no matter how many times you say it.

There was no collapse, NONE, under Chavez.

You are lying.

You are on the side of people who murder innocent people in the streets to seize power.

You do not like democracy.

You contort and strain in support of dictatorship.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're lying.

The reason the US supported the coup against Chavez was because he prevented collapses.

The idiot capitalists and their system that constantly collapses said Venezuela would collapse for 12 years before it did.

They cried about collapse like chicken little.

And like a broken clock every once in a while they are correct.

But it didn't happen under Chavez.

We said it would collapse. We said it was collapsing. We gave the means of the collapse, we didn't give a date it would be collapsed by. We batted 100%.

You denied there was a problem until they admitted it had hit bottom. You batted 0%.

You are lying no matter how many times you say it.

There was no collapse, NONE, under Chavez.

You are lying.

You are on the side of people who murder innocent people in the streets to seize power.

You do not like democracy.

You contort and strain in support of dictatorship.

Chanting "lying, lying, lying" doesn't make it so. All it does is show that you don't have anything but faith behind your position.

 

[untermensche]

You are lying no matter how many times you say it.

There was no collapse, NONE, under Chavez.

You are lying.

You are on the side of people who murder innocent people in the streets to seize power.

You do not like democracy.

You contort and strain in support of dictatorship.

Chanting "lying, lying, lying" doesn't make it so. All it does is show that you don't have anything but faith behind your position.

What I have is facts.

The people in Venezuela you support ran an apartheid state for decades.

They shot innocent people in the street to try to seize power.

They are undemocratic oligarchs. And they want their oligarchy back.

That is who you support.

I support Chavez. A rare leader looking out for the oppressed and desperate in his society.

I have facts on my side.

You folks cried about collapse for 11 years. You carried out economic warfare. You supported a coup.

Yet no collapse when Chavez was in power.

I have facts on my side.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You are lying no matter how many times you say it.

There was no collapse, NONE, under Chavez.

You are lying.

You are on the side of people who murder innocent people in the streets to seize power.

You do not like democracy.

You contort and strain in support of dictatorship.

Chanting "lying, lying, lying" doesn't make it so. All it does is show that you don't have anything but faith behind your position.

What I have is facts.

The people in Venezuela you support ran an apartheid state for decades.

They shot innocent people in the street to try to seize power.

They are undemocratic oligarchs. And they want their oligarchy back.

That is who you support.

I support Chavez. A rare leader looking out for the oppressed and desperate in his society.

I have facts on my side.

You folks cried about collapse for 11 years. You carried out economic warfare. You supported a coup.

Yet no collapse when Chavez was in power.

I have facts on my side.

You support a leader who destroyed his country in looting it for personal gain. All he has to do is say he's for the people and you fall for it hook, line and sinker.