Was Jesus a troll?

[Brian63]

On different message boards across this Internet-thing, so often when religious and secular people debate each other on various issues, you can see a behavior in both sides that seems a little disappointing, but also really awkward especially whenever it comes from the religious folks. Namely, people try to write their posts and speak to each other in a very argumentative, confrontational, demeaning, belittling, and insulting way towards the other side. It is not just that different people have different views and opinions on the subject, but we can all debate the issues with good charity in mind towards the other, have discussions that are mutually helpful and enlightening, and even fun for everyone. Instead, they have to try and insult the people who have different opinions, “poison the well” against them, and ridicule them for being stupid and/or dishonest.

I think there are various psychological, social, and evolutionary explanations for that behavior for every person on every side of every issue. However, when Christians in particular engage in it, in addition it also seems blatantly contradictory to their own beliefs. Jesus is constantly promoted as being a really super-nice and caring and kind guy that we should all try to emulate in our own behavior. “What would Jesus do?” is a common catchphrase they use when trying to decide some ethical dilemma. We will all fall short of his perfection, but at least we can try, and we should all still try to aim ourselves in the same direction as him, even if we do not get as far on the road as he would.

However, those same Christians argue in a way that is very hostile and insulting towards secularists. And if you point that out to them, they will not apologize for their behavior and admit they were inappropriate and wrong but will try to do better in the future and behave more like Jesus would. Instead, they will try to *justify* their aggressive behavior. They will make excuses and rationalizations for their behavior, and then continue on with that behavior. When I have debated some very conservative Christians years ago on one of their discussion boards, so many of them would write very brief comments or posts that offered nothing contributory to the discussion or any kind of substance at all. Instead, they were purely rhetorical jabs at me, intended to provoke me into getting angry and hostile towards them. They were trolling me.

So on the one hand they try to argue that the appropriate behavior for all humans (including themselves) is to at least try to be very giving, compassionate, and charitable towards each other. But then, they also try to argue and rationalize and justify their own insulting, uncharitable, and demeaning behavior as being the appropriate behavior for themselves to engage in.

I am so glad to be an atheist. We can make worldviews that are much more consistent, reasonable, sensible, and capable of progressing than theists. They have to try and reconcile their static contradictory doctrines with each other, try to justify their own self-contradictory behavior to a great extent…and have to figure out a way to interpret a story about a TALKING SNAKE as being a literal description of something that really happened in history.

Brian

 

[Atheos]

The illusion of Jesus lives in the mind of the beholder. Jesus supposedly called out the scribes and pharisees as hypocrites (Luke 11, Matt 23) and referred to them as fools. Anyone can make of that what they want to and feel justified in using similar language to scoff at infidels.

 

[Keith&Co.]

The illusion of Jesus lives in the mind of the beholder. Jesus supposedly called out the scribes and pharisees as hypocrites (Luke 11, Matt 23) and referred to them as fools. Anyone can make of that what they want to and feel justified in using similar language to scoff at infidels.

Or quote any of several verses and say 'I'M not calling you a fool, GOD is.' So that's alright, then, i guess.

 

[abaddon]

Hypocrisy is an inevitable symptom of the belief in belief. Believing that your beliefs make you who you are, and so holding to strong beliefs to establish a solid-feeling sense of identity, is egoism that will lead to asshole-ism.

Watch theists in their long OCD babbling and you'll see they show no sign of self-awareness anywhere. Mostly you'll just see conceits. Since they believe in belief, they'll replace authenticity (and the self-questioning it takes to achieve it) with beliefs about themselves. So if a person wants to believe he's following the example of Jesus then he will believe it even if he's a hate-filled selfish jerk. He'll be quick to tell you that you're a hate-filled jerk, because when a person lacks self-awareness it's inevitable he'll project his traits onto other people.

It's fun, in a way, because even while trying so very hard to prove their faith is based in solid reasoning, they're demonstrating that it is not. And there's small chance their armor of beliefs is going to allow that into consciousness because the armor of beliefs is itself believed to be an important thing to have. They expend so much energy in shining that armor. Which is why "the belief in belief" is such an apt phrase.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Hypocrisy is an inevitable symptom of the belief in belief. Believing that your beliefs make you who you are, and so holding to strong beliefs to establish a solid-feeling sense of identity, is egoism that will lead to asshole-ism.

Watch theists in their long OCD babbling and you'll see they show no sign of self-awareness anywhere. Mostly you'll just see conceits. Since they believe in belief, they'll replace authenticity (and the self-questioning it takes to achieve it) with beliefs about themselves. So if a person wants to believe he's following the example of Jesus then he will believe it even if he's a hate-filled selfish jerk. He'll be quick to tell you that you're a hate-filled jerk, because when a person lacks self-awareness it's inevitable he'll project his traits onto other people.

It's fun, in a way, because even while trying so very hard to prove their faith is based in solid reasoning, they're demonstrating that it is not. And there's small chance their armor of beliefs is going to allow that into consciousness because the armor of beliefs is itself believed to be an important thing to have. They expend so much energy in shining that armor. Which is why "the belief in belief" is such an apt phrase.

Two words:



Dunning


Kruger

 

[funinspace]

I think there are various psychological, social, and evolutionary explanations for that behavior for every person on every side of every issue. However, when Christians in particular engage in it, in addition it also seems blatantly contradictory to their own beliefs. Jesus is constantly promoted as being a really super-nice and caring and kind guy that we should all try to emulate in our own behavior. “What would Jesus do?” is a common catchphrase they use when trying to decide some ethical dilemma. We will all fall short of his perfection, but at least we can try, and we should all still try to aim ourselves in the same direction as him, even if we do not get as far on the road as he would.

I much prefer 'What would Jesus bomb' today

However, those same Christians argue in a way that is very hostile and insulting towards secularists. And if you point that out to them, they will not apologize for their behavior and admit they were inappropriate and wrong but will try to do better in the future and behave more like Jesus would. Instead, they will try to *justify* their aggressive behavior. They will make excuses and rationalizations for their behavior, and then continue on with that behavior. When I have debated some very conservative Christians years ago on one of their discussion boards, so many of them would write very brief comments or posts that offered nothing contributory to the discussion or any kind of substance at all. Instead, they were purely rhetorical jabs at me, intended to provoke me into getting angry and hostile towards them. They were trolling me.

There have been a few Christian theists that have spent some time on this board that have been fairly reasonable and respectful in their apologetics. Of course they trip up like we all do at times. But you do describe a common behavior that I do find ironic.

So on the one hand they try to argue that the appropriate behavior for all humans (including themselves) is to at least try to be very giving, compassionate, and charitable towards each other. But then, they also try to argue and rationalize and justify their own insulting, uncharitable, and demeaning behavior as being the appropriate behavior for themselves to engage in.

Well, they are also just human after all...

 

[Learner]

Jesus wasn't a troll ... but I on the other hand ...

 

[Tigers!]

There have been a few Christian theists that have spent some time on this board that have been fairly reasonable and respectful in their apologetics. Of course they trip up like we all do at times. But you do describe a common behavior that I do find ironic.

Thank you.
You are too kind.

 

[Lion IRC]

Jesus said if people won't welcome/listen to you, then shake the dust off your feet and leave. (Matthew 10:14)

That doesn't sound troll-like to me.

 

[funinspace]

Jesus said if people won't welcome/listen to you, then shake the dust off your feet and leave. (Matthew 10:14)

That doesn't sound troll-like to me.

Obviously, you have never run into a desert troll

 

[Brian63]

Jesus said if people won't welcome/listen to you, then shake the dust off your feet and leave. (Matthew 10:14)

That doesn't sound troll-like to me.

Those were not the people I was referring to. The people I was referring to are not shaking the dust off their feet and leaving. They are going much further, and telling that person who disagrees with them that they are stupid, immature, dishonest, immoral, arrogant, blind, naive, lying, etc.

It is quite a different approach to take than shaking the dust off and leaving.

Brian

 

[Eldarion Lathria]

Did he live under a bridge? Was he afraid of Billy Goats Gruff? If no, then he was not a troll.

Eldarion Lathria

 

[Lion IRC]

Jesus said if people won't welcome/listen to you, then shake the dust off your feet and leave. (Matthew 10:14)

That doesn't sound troll-like to me.

Those were not the people I was referring to. The people I was referring to are not shaking the dust off their feet and leaving. They are going much further, and telling that person who disagrees with them that they are stupid, immature, dishonest, immoral, arrogant, blind, naive, lying, etc.

It is quite a different approach to take than shaking the dust off and leaving.

Brian

Yes, non-theist trolls have done a good job encouraging their counterparts.
Atheist folks say to me "oh Lion that's very un-Christian of you."
And I'm thinking, make up your mind.

On a good many AvT fora you see really 'robust' language and maybe the people Brian63 has an issue with are just trying to fit in. When in Rome, as they say. Speaking in tongues?

 

[Brian63]

Yes, non-theist trolls have done a good job encouraging their counterparts.
Atheist folks say to me "oh Lion that's very un-Christian of you."
And I'm thinking, make up your mind.

I am just curious why you made that statement on this largely atheist forum. Do you overall have the intention of evangelizing your religion here, and trying to provoke us is the best way to do it? Are you not trying to evangelize your religion here, and you said it for some other reason? Either way, did you expect it would have the effect of (regardless of what your intentions were) provoking the atheists here and getting us to be frustrated at you? Other? What do you think Jesus would have done, said the same or something different?

The religious mindset is one of interest to me, so I ask those questions not to try to provoke or troll or anger you, but I actually do what to find out what your mindset was, what your intentions were, and what effects you think saying the above would have on the atheists here.

Thanks,

Brian

 

[repoman]

On different message boards across this Internet-thing, so often when religious and secular people debate each other on various issues, you can see a behavior in both sides that seems a little disappointing, but also really awkward especially whenever it comes from the religious folks. Namely, people try to write their posts and speak to each other in a very argumentative, confrontational, demeaning, belittling, and insulting way towards the other side. It is not just that different people have different views and opinions on the subject, but we can all debate the issues with good charity in mind towards the other, have discussions that are mutually helpful and enlightening, and even fun for everyone. Instead, they have to try and insult the people who have different opinions, “poison the well” against them, and ridicule them for being stupid and/or dishonest.

I think there are various psychological, social, and evolutionary explanations for that behavior for every person on every side of every issue. However, when Christians in particular engage in it, in addition it also seems blatantly contradictory to their own beliefs. Jesus is constantly promoted as being a really super-nice and caring and kind guy that we should all try to emulate in our own behavior. “What would Jesus do?” is a common catchphrase they use when trying to decide some ethical dilemma. We will all fall short of his perfection, but at least we can try, and we should all still try to aim ourselves in the same direction as him, even if we do not get as far on the road as he would.

However, those same Christians argue in a way that is very hostile and insulting towards secularists. And if you point that out to them, they will not apologize for their behavior and admit they were inappropriate and wrong but will try to do better in the future and behave more like Jesus would. Instead, they will try to *justify* their aggressive behavior. They will make excuses and rationalizations for their behavior, and then continue on with that behavior. When I have debated some very conservative Christians years ago on one of their discussion boards, so many of them would write very brief comments or posts that offered nothing contributory to the discussion or any kind of substance at all. Instead, they were purely rhetorical jabs at me, intended to provoke me into getting angry and hostile towards them. They were trolling me.

So on the one hand they try to argue that the appropriate behavior for all humans (including themselves) is to at least try to be very giving, compassionate, and charitable towards each other. But then, they also try to argue and rationalize and justify their own insulting, uncharitable, and demeaning behavior as being the appropriate behavior for themselves to engage in.

I am so glad to be an atheist. We can make worldviews that are much more consistent, reasonable, sensible, and capable of progressing than theists. They have to try and reconcile their static contradictory doctrines with each other, try to justify their own self-contradictory behavior to a great extent…and have to figure out a way to interpret a story about a TALKING SNAKE as being a literal description of something that really happened in history.

Brian

First it should be ok to have your ideas ridiculed, even savagely. But what can happen is someone may know that you are fat, or currently out of a job or divorced and say your bad attitude that led to your atheism also led to non related personal issues. As if christians don't have problems or there are not atheists with fewer personal problems. They do personal attacks because their religion is bunk.

Also, life is hard enough and we all have lots of problems seeing reality clearly and making wise actions, so why add religion to the mix. But some use the imaginary friend trick and ignore all the rules and it may actually work. Who knows, they may just be more easy going to begin with.

 

[Lion IRC]

I am just curious why you made that statement on this largely atheist forum. Do you overall have the intention of evangelizing your religion here...

Well, evangelize is not really the word. I'm more interested in giving a biblical theist POV - my own - in cases when this "largely atheist" forum invites/goads a reply. I rarely instigate threads or bait ppl.

...and trying to provoke us is the best way to do it?

These folks are free thinkers. They aren't "provoked". LOL

Are you not trying to evangelize your religion here, and you said it for some other reason? ...

There's a Chistian apologist named Lenny Esposito...no wait...Greg Koukl who says the best you can hope for is to put a 'stone in the shoe' of a non-believer. (Maybe there's an atheist counter-apologetic equivalent. I don't know.)
I just don't want an atheist echo chamber to think that no Christian is willing and able to have their Christianity "crash tested". (1st Peter 3:15)

Either way, did you expect it would have the effect of (regardless of what your intentions were) provoking the atheists here and getting us to be frustrated at you? .

No. LOL
I've been visiting AvT forums from Undernet IRC to Reddit since 1996.
I don't "expect" group think. ppl are ppl. Some get frustrated. Some get hardened hearts. Some convert. The IRC channel manager at #atheism converted to Christianity.
How about you?

Other? What do you think Jesus would have done, said the same or something different?...

We know what Jesus would say if someone demanded proof.
And we know what 2017 atheists would say to Jesus if He were here.
*shrug*

...The religious mindset is one of interest to me, so I ask those questions not to try to provoke or troll or anger you, but I actually do what to find out what your mindset was, what your intentions were, and what effects you think saying the above would have on the atheists here....

You said it!
Atheists ARE interested in what theists think and believe. (And vice versa)
The contest of ideas is a worthy and enlightened pursuit.
It doesn't need to be contextualised in terms of troll vs troll.

Thanks,

Brian

*handshake*

 

[Brian63]

Well, evangelize is not really the word. I'm more interested in giving a biblical theist POV - my own - in cases when this "largely atheist" forum invites/goads a reply. I rarely instigate threads or bait ppl.

I am not referring to the point view of you that you are trying to give though, I am referring to the manner in which you give it. You incorporate several LOLs and smiley faces and write responses in a very sarcastic and making-fun-of manner, which is vastly different from writing your response in a very "giving" manner. If you wanted to be giving a POV, you could do that while focusing more on the substance and content of the POV rather than making it written as making fun of the people you are "giving" your POV to.

Referring to other nontheist members of this board who could read your posts and be provoked by them, you write---

These folks are free thinkers. They aren't "provoked". LOL

That is 1 example of what I mean. That is moreso a verbal and rhetorical punch, a jab, aimed at us, rather than being "giving a biblical theist POV." Why would you write a statement like that? Do you think you are right in making it, and that Jesus would do the same? Do you think Jesus would have not made a sarcastic comment like that, but that you erred and were wrong and unjustified in doing so, and sincerely apologize for it and will try to be more polite in the future - or are you going to continue to try and justify throwing those sorts of sarcastic and rhetorical punches?

Brian

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

To be fair, Lion gets way more than he gives. That can be said for many on this board who are in the minority, be it religious or political. Its hard to expect such people not to give a little back, or at least poke fun a little at those who are berating them. That's just human nature.

 

[Brian63]

Right, I completely agree that that is expected, predicted, and normal human behavior. What I am writing about here is the extra step beyond that which they take. If you point out how that behavior is inappropriate and unethical according to the religious views they hold, they will not acknowledge that and say they were wrong to engage in that behavior and will try to do better in the future. Instead of doing that, they try to defend, rationalize, and justify the act of making teasing and sarcastic comments as being ethical and appropriate for them to engage in. Which is the exact opposite of what they tell us Jesus was like---who was a super-caring, kind, and compassionate fellow. They are defending these 2 blatantly contradictory ethical views.

In the past I have posted on some heavily religious and politically-oriented fora where I held a very minority view. I was made fun of, provoked, trolled, and so I wrote some similar comments in return, though not nearly to the same extent or degree that they wrote them to me. I think it was ethical and justified that I did so to the smaller amount that I did, to let them know that I would be willing to fight back (so "won't bring a knife to a gunfight") and not bullied by them. I am saying that at times it is ethically appropriate to be somewhat verbally combative towards certain other people.

If Lion IRC wants to do the same and defend his teasing and sarcastic comments as being appropriate for him to do, that is fine. If instead he wants to condemn that behavior and say the appropriate behavior for everybody is to try to be really Jesus-like and so to be friendly, caring, and compassionate to everybody, then that is fine too. What I am pointing out in this thread is that it is contradictory to defend BOTH of those behaviors as being the appropriate behavior to engage in. That makes no sense. It is completely incoherent.

So again, I am not trying to say Lion IRC is doing wrong by being somewhat demeaning towards posters here. I am just saying that if he is going to take that position, then do not also say that we should all be really kind and caring towards everybody all of the time.


There is another Christian member who regularly posts on this forum (who shall remain nameless), and he writes his posts in an extremely unappealing, off-putting, and sarcastic manner. He will write a "wall of text" with virtually every post, we can say. It is clearly not with the intent of convincing people towards his point of view, which would be better achieved if he wrote in a friendlier, kind, more succinct manner, etc. His intent seems to be more to bother the people here, rather than persuade them. I stopped reading his posts in full a long time ago though will occasionally will read a paragraph of his here and there, but I do wonder if anyone does read them from beginning-to-end anymore or if he has turned off everybody.

Brian

 

[Potoooooooo]

Did he live under a bridge? Was he afraid of Billy Goats Gruff? If no, then he was not a troll.

Eldarion Lathria

that shows what you know