What a fair and honest debate on Israel/Palestinian conflict looks like

[Crazy Eddie]

You're mixing up their negotiating position with concessions.

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So why hasn't someone claimed the prize?

Because the person OFFERING the prize is full of shit?

Doesn't matter. You show the truth...

... and they do what YOU do all the time: move the goalposts, equivocate, and weasel out of it in through a series of semantic word games. Even convincing a judge to TAKE the case would look alot like this very discussion in which said weasel uses a complicated routine of rhetorical gymnastics to try and talk his way out of it.

Meanwhile, there's this:

September 9, 1993

Yitzhak Rabin

Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era...I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments: The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security. The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338. The PLO commits itself...to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations...the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators...the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

Sincerely,

Yasser Arafat.

Chairman: The Palestine Liberation Organization.

Even Netanyahu admits that Palestine recognized Israel over two decades ago. The remaining issue is not recognition of the Israeli government, but recognition of Israel as a Jewish State. The Palestinians aren't going to do that. Not ever. Even if you established a "temporary" truce that managed to last for a thousand years, it is not something they will EVER do. It would be like demanding Sox fans to admit that the Cubs are the best baseball team in America.

But please, don't let me stop you. You are about to SPECTACULARLY prove my point by posting a massive wall of red herrings and non sequitors in order to demonstrate that Yasser Arafat didn't MEAN any of the above and that his recognition of Israel didn't really happen.

 

[laughing dog]

Whether or not the PA recognizes Israel's right to exist (in any form) in its Charter is a moot argument. The PA could have made an explicit declaration of Israeli's right to exist and put in its Charter. But the PA did not. Instead, the PA used a confusing method which may or may not mean that the implied recognition is in the Charter. Either way, so what? If the PA is sincere about recognizing Israel's right to exist, it will be evident by its actions, not its words. If the PA is insincere about recognizing Israel's right to exist, it will be evident by its actions, not its words. So the insistence about recognition in the Charter is really just an excuse not to deal with the PA.

Interestingly, the state of Israel does not a charter or a constitution so it cannot even make the claim that contrary to the PA, it has in its founding document a recognition of the legitimacy of the right of the Palestinian people to have a state somewhere in Palestine. Not that such a formal recognition would matter - actions are what count.

The history of this conflict is rife with examples of both sides failing to keep their promises. IMO, what will lead to peace is when both sides consistently act in a manner that builds trust which will require both sides to ignore the deliberate attempts to sabotage the peace process by all hardliners on both sides. That will take an tremendous amount of patience, courage and goodwill by all parties - something that is sorely lacking on both sides.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're mixing up their negotiating position with concessions.

- - - Updated - - -

So why hasn't someone claimed the prize?

Because the person OFFERING the prize is full of shit?

Doesn't matter. You show the truth...

... and they do what YOU do all the time: move the goalposts, equivocate, and weasel out of it in through a series of semantic word games. Even convincing a judge to TAKE the case would look alot like this very discussion in which said weasel uses a complicated routine of rhetorical gymnastics to try and talk his way out of it.

Doesn't matter--if it's contested it would be resolved in court.

Meanwhile, there's this:

September 9, 1993

Yitzhak Rabin

Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era...I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments: The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security. The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338. The PLO commits itself...to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations...the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators...the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

Sincerely,

Yasser Arafat.

Chairman: The Palestine Liberation Organization.

Even Netanyahu admits that Palestine recognized Israel over two decades ago. The remaining issue is not recognition of the Israeli government, but recognition of Israel as a Jewish State. The Palestinians aren't going to do that. Not ever. Even if you established a "temporary" truce that managed to last for a thousand years, it is not something they will EVER do. It would be like demanding Sox fans to admit that the Cubs are the best baseball team in America.

But please, don't let me stop you. You are about to SPECTACULARLY prove my point by posting a massive wall of red herrings and non sequitors in order to demonstrate that Yasser Arafat didn't MEAN any of the above and that his recognition of Israel didn't really happen.

Doesn't mean it was actually changed. They claimed to have changed it but did not do so.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Doesn't mean it was actually changed.

Doesn't MATTER if it was actually changed. Recognition is a diplomatic step, not a legislative one. The very act of CLAIMING it is what makes it a fact, especially since the person they made the claim to was the PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL.

 

[iolo]

What claim have the Zionists to a single inch of Palestine? The UN, for a start, couldn't give them it, nor could the British they murdered.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Doesn't mean it was actually changed.

Doesn't MATTER if it was actually changed. Recognition is a diplomatic step, not a legislative one. The very act of CLAIMING it is what makes it a fact, especially since the person they made the claim to was the PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL.

Since they didn't change the charter it's pretty obvious the claim was not sincere.

 

[laughing dog]

Doesn't MATTER if it was actually changed. Recognition is a diplomatic step, not a legislative one. The very act of CLAIMING it is what makes it a fact, especially since the person they made the claim to was the PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL.

Since they didn't change the charter it's pretty obvious the claim was not sincere.

That is incredibly stupid reasoning. There is no need to have such a statement in any charter. Israel has no equivalent statement about a two state solution in their legal gov't documents that comprise the equivalent of a charter or a constitution. Moreover, if the PA was truly insincere, they would put in their charter but ignore it. You know, the same way both sides routinely fail to fulfill their promises to each other.

 

[Draconis]

I can't see why people bother taking sides on this issue anymore. There's more than enough angry people already on both sides so what difference does another make? All these cries of "they took our land!", "they have/don't have the right to do (whatever)!" and "xxx are terrorists!" are just getting so repetative.

Why can't they just get along? Yeah, I know, it's the "God thing". Sigh.

 

[arkirk]

I can't see why people bother taking sides on this issue anymore. There's more than enough angry people already on both sides so what difference does another make? All these cries of "they took our land!", "they have/don't have the right to do (whatever)!" and "xxx are terrorists!" are just getting so repetative.

Why can't they just get along? Yeah, I know, it's the "God thing". Sigh.

I think it is obviously a little more than the "god thing," but if you toss in cultural narcissism and racism, you will about have the whole formula. Today in America, we have a political animal named Trump who goes about demonizing Mexicans in much the same manner as Netanuahu demonizes Palestinians. I have a few Palestinian friends who are not demons...the same for the Mexicans. Netanyahu is just another hate monger in a land that already has experienced too much violence, displacement, murder, torture, etc. He should be expelled, not made their leader. We all know creepy people can attain leadership positions by scaring people with demonizing language. When we wake up to President Trump, it will be too late to even care what happened to Netanyahu....or is that Sullivan?

 

[iolo]

I can't see why people bother taking sides on this issue anymore. There's more than enough angry people already on both sides so what difference does another make? All these cries of "they took our land!", "they have/don't have the right to do (whatever)!" and "xxx are terrorists!" are just getting so repetative.

Why can't they just get along? Yeah, I know, it's the "God thing". Sigh.

Because if we don't take sides, the Nazis win. We fought a world war to stop the scumbags last time, so why not stop them now? If we don't , they will be setting up gas chambers for the Palestinians within a generation.