fromderinside
Mazzie Daius
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Obviously. But, it is clear that an infinity of boulders is less than an infinity of sand since boulders can be decomposed into sand.
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What does it mean for something to be "logically possible"?
- Thread starter untermensche
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untermensche
Contributor
A hotel with infinite rooms is not something that could ever exist.
It would not fit in infinite universes.
To say one exists is merely to start with an impossibility.
To use it as some real world example of something is the poor thinking I have been talking about this whole thread.
Thank you for another fine example.
Children and their childish understandings.
fast
Contributor
I had a couple thoughts and wondered if they might somehow relate. Counterfactuals and the problem with extrapolation.
If someone weighs 200 pounds and goes on a new-age superdiet and loses 10 pounds a week, then four weeks later, he weighs 160 pounds. Let's say that happened. But, what would have happened had he stayed on the diet for an additional two weeks?
I would suppose that unlikely as it might be, it's still a physical possibility that he might weigh 140 pounds, but if we don't know the point where it becomes physically impossible, we can use calculus to arrive at estimations for additional weeks. Allowing for logical possibilities that extend beyond the physically possible allow us to consider distant counterfactuals.
If someone weighs 200 pounds and goes on a new-age superdiet and loses 10 pounds a week, then four weeks later, he weighs 160 pounds. Let's say that happened. But, what would have happened had he stayed on the diet for an additional two weeks?
I would suppose that unlikely as it might be, it's still a physical possibility that he might weigh 140 pounds, but if we don't know the point where it becomes physically impossible, we can use calculus to arrive at estimations for additional weeks. Allowing for logical possibilities that extend beyond the physically possible allow us to consider distant counterfactuals.
untermensche
Contributor
There are physical boundaries for survival.
But there is no logic that determines these boundaries.
They are determined by factors within the physical and chemical structure of the human.
There are only physical possibilities here. No logical.
beero1000
Veteran Member
Set em up, knock em down. You must buy straw wholesale.
untermensche
Contributor
Do you ever say anything with any content?
beero1000
Veteran Member
Constantly. It's too bad you never understand any of it.
untermensche
Contributor
We have a difference of opinion.
beero1000
Veteran Member
That's the thing, you have very thoroughly convinced me that you don't have the requisite background knowledge or understanding to have a coherent opinion in the first place. Of course, you think you do - that's how Dunning-Kruger works. I can admit that I might be wrong here, but I am professionally acquainted with these concepts and I haven't seen any non trivially-flawed arguments supporting your position. Until you can start making sound arguments and actually paying attention to what people write instead of substituting your ridiculous strawmen, we're at an impasse with you thinking I'm a child and me thinking you're an idiot.
bilby
Fair dinkum thinkum
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Opinions are like arseholes; Everyone has one, and mostly they are full of shit.
untermensche
Contributor
That's the thing, you have very thoroughly convinced me that you don't have the requisite background knowledge or understanding to have a coherent opinion in the first place. Of course, you think you do - that's how Dunning-Kruger works. I can admit that I might be wrong here, but I am professionally acquainted with these concepts and I haven't seen any non trivially-flawed arguments supporting your position. Until you can start making sound arguments and actually paying attention to what people write instead of substituting your ridiculous strawmen, we're at an impasse with you thinking I'm a child and me thinking you're an idiot.
I have become convinced you are completely full of shit. An ignorant child that thinks infinity is something that could ever be real.
You have NO arguments. NONE.
I couldn't find a valid point from you in infinite years.
And in case you don't understand, that is the same number of years as years "without beginning". Which is the same number of years as years without end.
fast
Contributor
If two people are told to travel an infinite number of light years away (on their rocket ships), and if Allie has already traveled 20 light years away whereas Billie Jo has only but already travelled 5 light years away, then Allie has traveled further away than Billie Joe.
There's a sense in which Allie is closer to infinity (it seems to be at the end of the number line) but then again, there's a sense in which they are both the same distance away (unless infinity minus a number is real). Come to think of it, if infinity don't exist, the answer is zero and they only have to return (with a strange insincere maybe) but somehow, I don't think Billy Jo is closer.
It's one thing to try and not succeed, but is traveling at all trying? Are we actually going towards infinity when trying?
There's a sense in which Allie is closer to infinity (it seems to be at the end of the number line) but then again, there's a sense in which they are both the same distance away (unless infinity minus a number is real). Come to think of it, if infinity don't exist, the answer is zero and they only have to return (with a strange insincere maybe) but somehow, I don't think Billy Jo is closer.
It's one thing to try and not succeed, but is traveling at all trying? Are we actually going towards infinity when trying?
untermensche
Contributor
No matter how far one moves one is no closer to the end. There is no end. There is no way for something to be closer to it.
Another way to describe the same amount of time is to say "no beginning".
Time with no beginning is the same amount of time as time with no end.
If time with no beginning occurred before you were born you never would have been born.
George S
Veteran Member
That's the thing, you have very thoroughly convinced me that you don't have the requisite background knowledge or understanding to have a coherent opinion in the first place. Of course, you think you do - that's how Dunning-Kruger works. I can admit that I might be wrong here, but I am professionally acquainted with these concepts and I haven't seen any non trivially-flawed arguments supporting your position. Until you can start making sound arguments and actually paying attention to what people write instead of substituting your ridiculous strawmen, we're at an impasse with you thinking I'm a child and me thinking you're an idiot.
I have become convinced you are completely full of shit. An ignorant child that thinks infinity is something that could ever be real.
You have NO arguments. NONE.
I couldn't find a valid point from you in infinite years.
And in case you don't understand, that is the same number of years as years "without beginning". Which is the same number of years as years without end.
There are an infinite number of points on every line segment. In fact, this infinity is larger than the infinity of counting numbers.
An infinity can be larger than another one in this sense: Imagine two shepherds who can only count to 4. They wish to determine who has the larger flock. So they match them one by one and the shepherd who has some left when the matching is done has the larger flock. Infinities are compared in that way.
Infinity is not a number.
What an ignorant child thinks about infinity is really irrelevant.
The number of years to the beginning of time is in every direction. Look through a telescope and see the complete history of our universe. Time zero is the surface of a sphere containing all of the past. It is growing in diameter at one second per second. If it never stops growing then we call the time until it stops growing infinite. If it ever stops growing then the time until it stops growing is finite.
untermensche
Contributor
ONLY if we define a point as something UNREAL, something imaginary. Something that takes up neither space nor time.
You make my point well.
There are many who don't understand that the things you can say about imaginary infinities do not apply at all to real infinities. The concept infinity doesn't apply to the real world at all. It is not something that can be appreciated in any way.
The moment you talk about an infinity of something that takes up space you couldn't fit them in an infinite number of universes.
Were the number of years before you were born infinite (without end) or finite (with end)?
untermensche
Contributor
Let us count the number of years in the past from a given moment, in a universe with "no beginning".
The most recent year in the past would be year number 1.
The year before that would be year number 2.
And so on ......
What is clear is that in a universe with "no beginning" the number of years before any given moment are without end.
The most recent year in the past would be year number 1.
The year before that would be year number 2.
And so on ......
What is clear is that in a universe with "no beginning" the number of years before any given moment are without end.
untermensche
Contributor
They both weigh the same amount and take up the same amount of space and are composed of the same number of individual elements.
This imaginary thing "infinity".
fast
Contributor
Why count? It's not like there is a number and that it's far away.
fromderinside
Mazzie Daius
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Try reading infinity as beyond need or ability of observer to calculate. When it becomes obvious that a limit approaches a number beyond the need to continue counting to demonstrate the fact and that that number is formulaic arrived re: that limit, further proof by counting is not necessary.
When something can be divided without end infinity applies. When things of equal mass can be seen to be beyond one's ability to count or even using unlimited individual's following you to continue the count or using computer with picon calculating rates need be turned on for the lifetimes of all those who were counting can be referred to as infinite.
No matter which of these used other rules of calculation still apply. One can still find that the number of grains of sand exceed the number of boulders and both are beyond the observer's ability to enumerate so infinities are differentiated.
untermensche
Contributor
If you try to count you might understand.
The number of years in the past is without end. In a universe with "no beginning".
It is impossible for anything to happen in such a universe since the number of years that must pass first are endless.