What does it mean for something to be "logically possible"?

[bilby]

You appear to think that this is a clever response, and that the difficulty others have in answering this challenge demonstrates how everyone except you is deluded into believing stupid things.

This guy has much the same attitude

You make no argument.

Your inability to recognize one does not imply its absence.

You obviously have none.

What is 'obvious' to you demonstrably has little bearing on reality.

It is not a question to appear clever.

That's good, because it certainly achieved the exact opposite.

It is just a question that a rational person can see opens a can of worms.

You have provided no evidence that you have the slightest insight into what effects things might have have on rational people.

 

[untermensche]

You have provided no evidence that you have the slightest insight into what effects things might have have on rational people.

I would need to be talking to one first.

This is a thread about trying to decide what it means for something to be logically possible.

It is just as possible that time is the Easter Bunny as it is infinite.

 

[ryan]

I use the thought of infinite apples not even fitting into infinite universes to try to show how imaginary these concepts are.

Yes, and a 10 legged horse is imaginary too, but that doesn't mean it can't exist.

Is a horse with legs imaginary?

Infinity is totally imaginary. There is NOTHING real about it.

There is something real about it, specifically the objects in question. Apples/particles are real; the max quantity is unknown. So there is something real about an infinite number of whatever we know exists.

Infinity is not real.

You saying real things can somehow exist in this imaginary state of infinity is unsupported by anything.

For something to be logically possible the possibility can't be a purely imaginary state.

It is not logically possible I will wake up tomorrow and be a god.

It is not logically possible time will somehow assume this imaginary state of infinity.

I have provided support that it's possible. Cosmology has found no reason to believe otherwise, as per the quote from the NASA website. And there are even models showing an infinite universe is possible, https://journals.aps.org/prd/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevD.90.043520 .

 

[untermensche]

I use the thought of infinite apples not even fitting into infinite universes to try to show how imaginary these concepts are.

Yes, and a 10 legged horse is imaginary too, but that doesn't mean it can't exist.

Is a horse with legs imaginary?

Infinity is totally imaginary. There is NOTHING real about it.

There is something real about it, specifically the objects in question. Apples/particles are real; the max quantity is unknown. So there is something real about an infinite number of whatever we know exists.

Infinity is not real.

You saying real things can somehow exist in this imaginary state of infinity is unsupported by anything.

For something to be logically possible the possibility can't be a purely imaginary state.

It is not logically possible I will wake up tomorrow and be a god.

It is not logically possible time will somehow assume this imaginary state of infinity.

I have provided support that it's possible. Cosmology has found no reason to believe otherwise, as per the quote from the NASA website. And there are even models showing an infinite universe is possible, https://journals.aps.org/prd/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevD.90.043520 .

Cosmology is a human topic of inquiry.

It does not find reasons to believe things. Only humans do that.

There is no rational reason to even suppose infinity is something real.

That is why you are trying to make some irrational argument from authority, not give rational reasons to believe something is real.

Give me one rational reason to even suppose infinity could be real.

A reason, not an appeal to some authority. Not a logical fallacy in other words.

 

[ryan]

Cosmology is a human topic of inquiry.

It does not find reasons to believe things. Only humans do that.

There is no rational reason to even suppose infinity is something real.

That is why you are trying to make some irrational argument from authority, not give rational reasons to believe something is real.

Give me one rational reason to even suppose infinity could be real.

I feel like I have tried everything to convince you that it's possible. I have yet to read anything anywhere that convinces me that it's impossible.

 

[untermensche]

Cosmology is a human topic of inquiry.

It does not find reasons to believe things. Only humans do that.

There is no rational reason to even suppose infinity is something real.

That is why you are trying to make some irrational argument from authority, not give rational reasons to believe something is real.

Give me one rational reason to even suppose infinity could be real.

I feel like I have tried everything to convince you that it's possible. I have yet to read anything anywhere that convinces me that it's impossible.

Is it possible I will wake up tomorrow and be a god with god-like powers?

 

[fromderinside]

Logically it only needs to beyond counting by those who do such. That is infinite is logically possible by definition.

This is about actual infinity, not apparent infinity.

Please. If it is beyond counting it's infinite. If you believe otherwise logically demonstrate the difference.

 

[untermensche]

This is about actual infinity, not apparent infinity.

Please. If it is beyond counting it's infinite. If you believe otherwise logically demonstrate the difference.

It is for human purposes infinite.

But not demonstrated to be infinite.

 

[ryan]

I feel like I have tried everything to convince you that it's possible. I have yet to read anything anywhere that convinces me that it's impossible.

Is it possible I will wake up tomorrow and be a god with god-like powers?

You are comparing an unkown quantity of things that we know exist to you becoming a god. I don't think that's a fair analogy.

 

[ryan]

This is about actual infinity, not apparent infinity.

Please. If it is beyond counting it's infinite. If you believe otherwise logically demonstrate the difference.

So if I die while counting cars on my block, then my block has an infinite number of cars??? There might be only 20.

 

[untermensche]

Is it possible I will wake up tomorrow and be a god with god-like powers?

You are comparing an unkown quantity of things that we know exist to you becoming a god. I don't think that's a fair analogy.

Well I see it as consistency.

I treat the possibility of imaginary concepts as actually existing equally.

There is time, true.

But adding the imaginary concept of "without end" is not any part of time. It is just an imaginary operation. Nothing real presupposes it could be true.

It is like adding some god-like quality to a human.

A human that can perform miracles.

Just as possible.

 

[ryan]

You are comparing an unkown quantity of things that we know exist to you becoming a god. I don't think that's a fair analogy.

Well I see it as consistency.

I treat the possibility of imaginary concepts as actually existing equally.

There is time, true.

But adding the imaginary concept of "without end" is not any part of time. It is just an imaginary operation. Nothing real presupposes it could be true.

It is like adding some god-like quality to a human.

A human that can perform miracles.

Just as possible.

It's just quantity. A trillion apples is only in the imagination too, but there is no know reason why they can't exist. It's not the same comparison to you becoming a god.

 

[untermensche]

Well I see it as consistency.

I treat the possibility of imaginary concepts as actually existing equally.

There is time, true.

But adding the imaginary concept of "without end" is not any part of time. It is just an imaginary operation. Nothing real presupposes it could be true.

It is like adding some god-like quality to a human.

A human that can perform miracles.

Just as possible.

It's just quantity. A trillion apples is only in the imagination too, but there is no know reason why they can't exist. It's not the same comparison to you becoming a god.

It is an imaginary addition to the idea of quantity.

Quantity without end.

 

[ryan]

It's just quantity. A trillion apples is only in the imagination too, but there is no know reason why they can't exist. It's not the same comparison to you becoming a god.

It is an imaginary addition to the idea of quantity.

Quantity without end.

Again with the if imaginary then can't exist?

There are imaginary things that are impossible, and there are imaginary things that are possible. You have to explain why you are putting infinity into the imaginary and impossible set. And please don't give some other example of something that is imaginary and impossible; that won't help this particular case.

 

[untermensche]

It is an imaginary addition to the idea of quantity.

Quantity without end.

Again with the if imaginary then can't exist?

There are imaginary things that are impossible, and there are imaginary things that are possible. You have to explain why you are putting infinity into the imaginary and impossible set. And please don't give some other example of something that is imaginary and impossible; that won't help this particular case.

You have things backwards.

To show something is possible you have to show it is more than imaginary.

 

[ryan]

Again with the if imaginary then can't exist?

There are imaginary things that are impossible, and there are imaginary things that are possible. You have to explain why you are putting infinity into the imaginary and impossible set. And please don't give some other example of something that is imaginary and impossible; that won't help this particular case.

You have things backwards.

To show something is possible you have to show it is more than imaginary.

What do you mean by backwards? What did I say that is wrong?

Possible in that it's theoretically allowed. It is reasonable to think something that our limited knowledge permits is possible even though it may actually be impossible.

 

[fast]

To show something is possible you have to show it is more than imaginary.

Let's say I'm a darn good basketball player and can make shots in the hoop from center court (if I can see the basket). If you build a wall two feet taller than myself, it's both physically possible and logically possible for me to make the shot, as I can jump up two feet off the ground, see the basket, and make the shot. If you build the wall twenty feet high, it's physically impossible for me to jump that high (unaided by any artificial device), yet although it's physically impossible to make the shot (given the physical limitations), it's not logically impossible to make the shot, for if (if, I say) I could make the jump, there's no alternate reason for why the shot couldn't be made.

The whole point (well, at least the point I'm putting forward) of expanding the scope of possibility beyond physical possibilities is to show the logic of what could be done given alternate scenarios. Nowhere was it ever intended for logical possibilities to be confined to true physical possibilities.

Never mind all this imaginary stuff. If I could, not that I can, but IF (IF, I say) I could make the jump IN THE REAL WORLD (not some jibe about imaginations), then (THEN) I could make the shot.

You deny that it's logically possible because never could it be physically possible (on Earth with regular gravitation and without aid of some sort)?

 

[untermensche]

To show something is possible you have to show it is more than imaginary.

Let's say I'm a darn good basketball player and can make shots in the hoop from center court (if I can see the basket). If you build a wall two feet taller than myself, it's both physically possible and logically possible for me to make the shot, as I can jump up two feet off the ground, see the basket, and make the shot. If you build the wall twenty feet high, it's physically impossible for me to jump that high (unaided by any artificial device), yet although it's physically impossible to make the shot (given the physical limitations), it's not logically impossible to make the shot, for if (if, I say) I could make the jump, there's no alternate reason for why the shot couldn't be made.

The whole point (well, at least the point I'm putting forward) of expanding the scope of possibility beyond physical possibilities is to show the logic of what could be done given alternate scenarios. Nowhere was it ever intended for logical possibilities to be confined to true physical possibilities.

Never mind all this imaginary stuff. If I could, not that I can, but IF (IF, I say) I could make the jump IN THE REAL WORLD (not some jibe about imaginations), then (THEN) I could make the shot.

You deny that it's logically possible because never could it be physically possible (on Earth with regular gravitation and without aid of some sort)?

Since a basketball shot is more than something imaginary a basketball shot is possible.

Whether one can actually make the shot or not depends on many things.

But the shot itself is not something imaginary.

 

[Copernicus]

Untermensche, you are so painfully wrong about "logically possible", but maybe that doesn't matter to you. For something to be "logically possible", it only has to pass the test of the  law of noncontradiction. Claims that pass that test in imaginary realities are therefore logically possible. There is nothing about the concept that requires it to be consistent with the model that we believe to be most plausible at any particular point in time.

 

[untermensche]

Untermensche, you are so painfully wrong about "logically possible", but maybe that doesn't matter to you. For something to be "logically possible", it only has to pass the test of the  law of noncontradiction. Claims that pass that test in imaginary realities are therefore logically possible. There is nothing about the concept that requires it to be consistent with the model that we believe to be most plausible at any particular point in time.

I am entitled to my opinions.

If a human can jump 1 foot high is it logically possible they can jump 100?