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Who is feeling the Bern

I'm feelin it.

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Bernie supporters are always talking about how he polls better than Hillary in matchups with Republicans, which suggests they would view his biggest challenge as getting past Hillary.
Basically, this. Considering the witless idiots they have running in their field -- and considering their strongest candidate is still Donald Trump of all people -- it's pretty much just a question of deciding "Who gets the right to crush the Republican candidate in the general election?" In that sense, it really IS just a question of Bernie vs. Hillary.

Being a witless idiot has proven to be an electable asset in recent elections, the GOP killed the Dems in 2014, and polls show that both Hillary and Bernie could very plausibly lose to some of the GOP candidates. Bernie's popularity is only going to drop in the general. He has been almost completely ignored by the GOP so far, and many people currently claiming they would vote for him know nothing of him other than that he's politically atypical and likeably honest. His policies are extreme (not a judgment just a fact), and many current Bernie leaners will get scared off once the GOP turns their sites to him and highlight the extreme fiscal changes and tax increases his policies require. Right now many of his more luke-warm supporters are ignoring the "Socialist" label as a smear tactic, but they will get nervous when they realize that it isn't a smear but an accurate self-ascribed label. His support from everyone except those too poor to pay any taxes will drop massively by the end of the general.
 
many people currently claiming they would vote for him know nothing of him other than that he's politically atypical and likeably honest.
You have made a lot of very specific claims about Bernie Sanders supporters which appear to be based on little else than wild speculation. You opened by claiming that Sanders supporters "don't think he's plausible but like him anyway" and now you're claiming they "know nothing of him" except that he's likeable.

I have observed NOTHING of Sanders supporters that corroborates this. Quite the contrary, in fact: his relative obscurity in the media means that almost all of his current supporters are people who have gone out of their way to FIND OUT more about him and wound up liking his positions on key issues. His current sparsity of support has the same feature: it's primarily because MOST voters don't even know who he is and don't pay enough attention to politics to bother finding out (and the majority of Hillary supporters are voting for her because "Hillary Clinton").

His policies are extreme (not a judgment just a fact), and many current Bernie leaners will get scared off once the GOP turns their sites to him
Implying that people who like his policies will stop liking them because his ENEMIES will criticize those policies?

That makes no sense at all.

Right now many of his more luke-warm supporters are ignoring the "Socialist" label as a smear tactic
I didn't know Bernie Sanders HAD Luke-warm supporters. As far as I know, everyone who has voiced support for Bernie Sanders has also been heard saying something along the lines is "What's wrong with being a socialist?"

Sanders called HIMSELF a socialist on many occasions. Having the balls to stand by it is one of the things people like about him.


they will get nervous when they realize that it isn't a smear but an accurate self-ascribed label.
I don't think you know what you're talking about.
 
Being a witless idiot has proven to be an electable asset in recent elections, the GOP killed the Dems in 2014, and polls show that both Hillary and Bernie could very plausibly lose to some of the GOP candidates. Bernie's popularity is only going to drop in the general. He has been almost completely ignored by the GOP so far, and many people currently claiming they would vote for him know nothing of him other than that he's politically atypical and likeably honest. His policies are extreme (not a judgment just a fact), and many current Bernie leaners will get scared off once the GOP turns their sites to him and highlight the extreme fiscal changes and tax increases his policies require. Right now many of his more luke-warm supporters are ignoring the "Socialist" label as a smear tactic, but they will get nervous when they realize that it isn't a smear but an accurate self-ascribed label. His support from everyone except those too poor to pay any taxes will drop massively by the end of the general.

I agree that in the sense of how Bernie is perceived by people after smear tactics will make his election difficult. However, this is going to be true of any Democratic Party candidate. For example, if Hillary becomes the nominee, Republicans and right-wing media will triple their efforts on Benghazi and Email scandals. Hillary will be called a socialist, too.

The average voter is stupid and we have a two party system that swings back and forth in the general election. So, even though, both candidates are better than the GOP candidates, a Republican will likely be elected.
 
Being a witless idiot has proven to be an electable asset in recent elections, the GOP killed the Dems in 2014, and polls show that both Hillary and Bernie could very plausibly lose to some of the GOP candidates. Bernie's popularity is only going to drop in the general. He has been almost completely ignored by the GOP so far, and many people currently claiming they would vote for him know nothing of him other than that he's politically atypical and likeably honest. His policies are extreme (not a judgment just a fact), and many current Bernie leaners will get scared off once the GOP turns their sites to him and highlight the extreme fiscal changes and tax increases his policies require. Right now many of his more luke-warm supporters are ignoring the "Socialist" label as a smear tactic, but they will get nervous when they realize that it isn't a smear but an accurate self-ascribed label. His support from everyone except those too poor to pay any taxes will drop massively by the end of the general.

I agree that in the sense of how Bernie is perceived by people after smear tactics will make his election difficult. However, this is going to be true of any Democratic Party candidate. For example, if Hillary becomes the nominee, Republicans and right-wing media will triple their efforts on Benghazi and Email scandals. Hillary will be called a socialist, too.
That's just it: you call Hillary a socialist and she has to respond by pointing out how non-socialist she is, describing how much she loves capitalism, works with the banks to improve regulations, believes in the free market and ONLY wants to close tax loopholes on the rich.

You call Bernie a socialist and he responds "So fucking what?"

The average voter is stupid and we have a two party system that swings back and forth in the general election. So, even though, both candidates are better than the GOP candidates, a Republican will likely be elected.
I don't think it's likely. Independent voters may be stupid, but there's NO WAY they're going to put Donald Trump into the White House. He appeals to the lowest of the low of Republican demagogues, who are in turn repellant to just about everyone else.
 
You have made a lot of very specific claims about Bernie Sanders supporters which appear to be based on little else than wild speculation. You opened by claiming that Sanders supporters "don't think he's plausible but like him anyway" and now you're claiming they "know nothing of him" except that he's likeable.

I didn't say that all his supporters don't think he can win. I said that some Dems like him but don't think he can win. Of those people, the one's who care most about a Dem winning are supporting Hillary, while those who value their ideal more than any Dem winning are willing to support Bernie. If young whites are more willing to risk the General for their ideals, then this would explain part of why they are much more likely to support him than other Dems.

As for the ignorance of most of his supporters, that is not a knock against them in particular, just a fact about voters in general, especially young voters.
The ignorance of the voting public and their near total reliance on major media outlets for their political knowledge are very well empirically established. It is beyond any reasonable doubt few of his current supporters would have ever even heard of him a year ago, and polls show that the majority of his supporters did not support him just 5 months ago. Thus, they only would know (at most) what the mainstream media outlets have said, which is almost nothing of any substance.

I have observed NOTHING of Sanders supporters that corroborates this. Quite the contrary, in fact: his relative obscurity in the media means that almost all of his current supporters are people who have gone out of their way to FIND OUT more about him and wound up liking his positions on key issues.

No. His very early supporters back when they were less than 5% of the electorate may likely have been non-typical in their high level of knowledge about him. But for the majority of his "fans" who just jumped on board in the last few months, Bernie is an amusing twitter meme, especially among young adults who get most their information from twitter and viral videos. His current support is too large a sample to be anything but typical voters, and specifically typical young voters, who generally know only whatever is plastered ad nausea in the news cycles and social media. Bernie is all over the mainstream media and social media, but only as a lovable ranting, say-whatever-he-thinks grandpa, absent any substantive information about his actual policies and what they entail.

It isn't that Hillary's supporters are smarter or more generally informed about politics. It is that they, like 99% of the population, know much much more about Hillary because she has been at the center of the national spotlight and the harshest possible scrutiny for 23 years.

His current sparsity of support has the same feature: it's primarily because MOST voters don't even know who he is and don't pay enough attention to politics to bother finding out (and the majority of Hillary supporters are voting for her because "Hillary Clinton").

Bernie is by far the most likable candidate out there. The people who don't really know his policies and are just going on superficial likeability are the one's most likely to support him. That is why he closed to gap on Hillary so fast, because it isn't based on policy knowledge that takes time, but on superficial qualities that you can tell by 10 seconds of hearing he and Hillary speak. From a personality standpoint, its all positive for Bernie. Thus, his support can only go down as people move past that and the details of his policies start to be attacked in force by the GOP.

His policies are extreme (not a judgment just a fact), and many current Bernie leaners will get scared off once the GOP turns their sites to him
Implying that people who like his policies will stop liking them because his ENEMIES will criticize those policies?

No. I am saying that people who like Bernie, like Bernie the amusing old man, and know little of his policies, so once all the more extreme details of those policies are highlighted and cast in the most negative light, the many who support him now only as a likable guy will not vote for him. Obviously, this doesn't apply to voters committed to voting (which includes showing up on election day) for whatever Dem is on the ticket.

Right now many of his more luke-warm supporters are ignoring the "Socialist" label as a smear tactic
I didn't know Bernie Sanders HAD Luke-warm supporters.

Then, you know very little about human beings and politics. All candidates have plenty of luke warm supporters. They are who decide elections. They are why we cannot predict with near certainty the 2016 winner right now, or even 2 weeks prior to the election. Most of Bernie's supporters have backed him for only a few months. How deep a commitment do you think they all have? Little of substance has been discussed in the Dem debates or anywhere else that most voters get their information. Thus, for many of his supporters, their support cannot be that strong or based on much but superficial personality.
Remember, most of his and all candidate's supporters are not people showing up to rallies and donating to his campaign. They are the typical voter when asked in either a poll or an election booth to choose who they support, find some basis to check one bubble rather than another and that is all. They determine elections.

As far as I know, everyone who has voiced support for Bernie Sanders has also been heard saying something along the lines is "What's wrong with being a socialist?"

Sure, because most of them have no clue what Socialism even means or how it relates to any of the things they care about. That's the point. Many of them will come to learn what it means to be a socialist and will find things wrong with that.


Sanders called HIMSELF a socialist on many occasions. Having the balls to stand by it is one of the things people like about him.

When they find out what that means (including that most of them will pay much more in taxes and see little personal benefit from it within their lifetime), then him admitting he is a socialist won't be as cute. The GOP calls every Dem a socialist and a tax raiser, but its always overblown. So many people are naively assuming the same is true with Bernie, but it isn't.
 
Being a witless idiot has proven to be an electable asset in recent elections, the GOP killed the Dems in 2014, and polls show that both Hillary and Bernie could very plausibly lose to some of the GOP candidates. Bernie's popularity is only going to drop in the general. He has been almost completely ignored by the GOP so far, and many people currently claiming they would vote for him know nothing of him other than that he's politically atypical and likeably honest. His policies are extreme (not a judgment just a fact), and many current Bernie leaners will get scared off once the GOP turns their sites to him and highlight the extreme fiscal changes and tax increases his policies require. Right now many of his more luke-warm supporters are ignoring the "Socialist" label as a smear tactic, but they will get nervous when they realize that it isn't a smear but an accurate self-ascribed label. His support from everyone except those too poor to pay any taxes will drop massively by the end of the general.

I agree that in the sense of how Bernie is perceived by people after smear tactics will make his election difficult. However, this is going to be true of any Democratic Party candidate. For example, if Hillary becomes the nominee, Republicans and right-wing media will triple their efforts on Benghazi and Email scandals. Hillary will be called a socialist, too.

Obama was called a socialist, but he won because he isn't close to one. Bernie is a socialist and will tax most people up the wazoo to pay for programs that mostly benefit those who don't pay taxes.
The problem is not that the GOP will call him a socialist, but that for once they will be correct and they will point out how he is a socialist and what that actually will mean for the net income of most voters.
 
I agree that in the sense of how Bernie is perceived by people after smear tactics will make his election difficult. However, this is going to be true of any Democratic Party candidate. For example, if Hillary becomes the nominee, Republicans and right-wing media will triple their efforts on Benghazi and Email scandals. Hillary will be called a socialist, too.

Obama was called a socialist, but he won because he isn't close to one. Bernie is a socialist and will tax most people up the wazoo to pay for programs that mostly benefit those who don't pay taxes.
The problem is not that the GOP will call him a socialist, but that for once they will be correct and they will point out how he is a socialist and what that actually will mean for the net income of most voters.

Only in the US are there people ignorant enough to salivate and groan at the mention of the word "Socialism".

Most of the world understands it is far more preferable than any alternative.

And the Republicans and Obama are taxing future generations out the wazoo for all this US aggression overseas. Doubly destructive, except to the few pigs at the MIC trough.
 
Obama was called a socialist, but he won because he isn't close to one. Bernie is a socialist and will tax most people up the wazoo to pay for programs that mostly benefit those who don't pay taxes.
The problem is not that the GOP will call him a socialist, but that for once they will be correct and they will point out how he is a socialist and what that actually will mean for the net income of most voters.

Only in the US are there people ignorant enough to salivate and groan at the mention of the word "Socialism".

Most of the world understands it is far more preferable than any alternative.

And the Republicans and Obama are taxing future generations out the wazoo for all this US aggression overseas. Doubly destructive, except to the few pigs at the MIC trough.

Explains the recent election in Venezuela.

Viva Presidente Chavez!

chavez-parrot2.jpg
 
Only in the US are there people ignorant enough to salivate and groan at the mention of the word "Socialism".

Most of the world understands it is far more preferable than any alternative.

And the Republicans and Obama are taxing future generations out the wazoo for all this US aggression overseas. Doubly destructive, except to the few pigs at the MIC trough.

Explains the recent election in Venezuela.

Viva Chavez!

chavez-parrot2.jpg

Are you claiming Chavez's Venezuela didn't vastly improve the lives of millions and worked to end centuries of racial discrimination and apartheid state policies?
 
Explains the recent election in Venezuela.

Viva Chavez!

chavez-parrot2.jpg

Are you claiming Chavez's Venezuela didn't vastly improve the lives of millions and worked to end centuries of racial discrimination and apartheid state policies?

Yes. When the opposition gains a super majority in the parliament, even though the Chavistas controlled all the levers of government and media, then yes, total failure.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5ot_ri1Ox8[/YOUTUBE]
 
No. His very early supporters back when they were less than 5% of the electorate may likely have been non-typical in their high level of knowledge about him. But for the majority of his "fans" who just jumped on board in the last few months, Bernie is an amusing twitter meme, especially among young adults who get most their information from twitter and viral videos. His current support is too large a sample to be anything but typical voters, and specifically typical young voters, who generally know only whatever is plastered ad nausea in the news cycles and social media. Bernie is all over the mainstream media and social media, but only as a lovable ranting, say-whatever-he-thinks grandpa, absent any substantive information about his actual policies and what they entail.

Sorry, but that is patently untrue. BS has been a regular weekly guest on the Thom Hartmann program for years. There are numerous YT videos of those "Brunch With Bernie" segments where he spend an hour each week discussing issues, positions and taking questions from callers. I suspect tech-savvy youth who are now Bernie supporters have watched quite a few of those and therefore know quite a lot about his opinions and positions.

https://www.google.com/#q=youtube+brunch+with+bernie
 
Yes. When the opposition gains a super majority in the parliament, even though the Chavistas controlled all the levers of government and media, then yes, total failure.

Chavez has been dead almost 3 years.

And is that what you think democracy is?

Controlling some levers?

That's not democracy. If anything that was Chavez's biggest failure. He didn't establish a functioning democracy. He was the benevolent master, not the servant.
 
Poll: white Democrats are feeling the Bern

Nationally, Clinton is still clearly in front among Democrats and Democrat leaners, according to this week's NBC News/SurveyMonkey Weekly Election Tracking Poll, which was conducted online — she leads 53 to 36 percent. But the crosstabs of the poll reveal three main demographic fault lines between Clinton and Sanders supporters: gender, age, and race.

Interestingly enough, Sanders is actually winning white Democrats and Democratic-leaning voters in this poll — 46 percent of them pick him, and 44 percent pick Clinton.

Yet Clinton remains well ahead due to her overwhelming support among nonwhite voters. Seventy-three percent of black Democrats and Democratic-leaning voters say they support Clinton, and just 12 percent support Sanders. The numbers among Hispanics are 61 percent for Clinton and 27 percent for Sanders. And people who said they were of another race supported Clinton over Sanders 59 percent to 30 percent.

http://www.vox.com/2016/1/15/10770524/who-supports-bernie-sanders

According to this poll support for Sanders skews to young, white and men.

The penis/vagina thing may help explain the male/female split, but given both Hillary and Bernie are old and white, what explains the large differences in support by age and race?

Long ago, the GOP lost black voters. The Clintons gained the support of the Black American voter and Hillary is still a favorite. Sanders is somebody few Black American voters know much about. He's just some old white male senator from Vermont. Its a case of a peculiar sort of name recognition advantage Hillary Clinton enjoys.
 
http://www.vox.com/2016/1/15/10770524/who-supports-bernie-sanders

According to this poll support for Sanders skews to young, white and men.

The penis/vagina thing may help explain the male/female split, but given both Hillary and Bernie are old and white, what explains the large differences in support by age and race?

Long ago, the GOP lost black voters. The Clintons gained the support of the Black American voter and Hillary is still a favorite. Sanders is somebody few Black American voters know much about. He's just some old white male senator from Vermont. Its a case of a peculiar sort of name recognition advantage Hillary Clinton enjoys.

I don't think there is anything magical about Hillary in the minds of black voters.

Compared to the Republicans she has great appeal.

But as it always does, everything changes the second real voting begins.

And the media, that seems to favor Clinton, cannot ignore Bernie if he wins.
 
What are these attacks republicans can throw at Bernie?

It's not going to matter. Independent voters can't stand Trump.

If you think Bernie is doing ok now, just imagine him with the backing of the democrats post primary

One of the attacks that Fox commentators and others are lying about is Sanders supporting a 90% tax rate for the 1%. He doesn't but that canard is now becoming common among the far right, much as Obama being a muslim is widely believed by far right dumb asses.
 
What are these attacks republicans can throw at Bernie?

It's not going to matter. Independent voters can't stand Trump.

If you think Bernie is doing ok now, just imagine him with the backing of the democrats post primary

One of the attacks that Fox commentators and others are lying about is Sanders supporting a 90% tax rate for the 1%. He doesn't but that canard is now becoming common among the far right, much as Obama being a muslim is widely believed by far right dumb asses.

People who believe things like that will not vote for any Democrat.

FOX is just a mouthpiece of the Republican party.

To expect anything different from them would be irrational.
 
Long ago, the GOP lost black voters. The Clintons gained the support of the Black American voter and Hillary is still a favorite. Sanders is somebody few Black American voters know much about. He's just some old white male senator from Vermont. Its a case of a peculiar sort of name recognition advantage Hillary Clinton enjoys.

I don't think there is anything magical about Hillary in the minds of black voters.

Compared to the Republicans she has great appeal.

But as it always does, everything changes the second real voting begins.

And the media, that seems to favor Clinton, cannot ignore Bernie if he wins.

A number of polls demonstrates that Bernie Sanders has little support from Black American voters, and neither does the GOP. This hurts Sanders as far as national polls go. This means, for Sanders to win against Clinton, he has to do something to gain votes among minorities. If Sanders cannot do this, Clinton will win.
 
I don't think there is anything magical about Hillary in the minds of black voters.

Compared to the Republicans she has great appeal.

But as it always does, everything changes the second real voting begins.

And the media, that seems to favor Clinton, cannot ignore Bernie if he wins.

A number of polls demonstrates that Bernie Sanders has little support from Black American voters, and neither does the GOP. This hurts Sanders as far as national polls go. This means, for Sanders to win against Clinton, he has to do something to gain votes among minorities. If Sanders cannot do this, Clinton will win.

Those polls may reflect nothing beyond name recognition.

Hillary is a celebrity of sorts, very well known.

Let these black voters actually hear proposals and positions from Sanders.
 
L
Long ago, the GOP lost black voters. The Clintons gained the support of the Black American voter and Hillary is still a favorite. Sanders is somebody few Black American voters know much about. He's just some old white male senator from Vermont. Its a case of a peculiar sort of name recognition advantage Hillary Clinton enjoys.

I don't think there is anything magical about Hillary in the minds of black voters.

Compared to the Republicans she has great appeal.

But as it always does, everything changes the second real voting begins.

And the media, that seems to favor Clinton, cannot ignore Bernie if he wins.

This thread is about why Clinton is so much more appealing than Sanders to Black, Hispanic, old, female Democrats.

Traditional scripts railing against the evils of Republicans would not seem to apply.
 
L
I don't think there is anything magical about Hillary in the minds of black voters.

Compared to the Republicans she has great appeal.

But as it always does, everything changes the second real voting begins.

And the media, that seems to favor Clinton, cannot ignore Bernie if he wins.

This thread is about why Clinton is so much more appealing than Sanders to Black, Hispanic, old, female Democrats.

Traditional scripts railing against the evils of Republicans would not seem to apply.

Polls show Trump gaining support among GOP voters, but having high negatives amongst Democrats and most importantly, Independents. But again, Hillary has support from blacks that Sanders lacks, The problem for Sanders is how to manage to get more minority voters on his side. If he cannot do that he loses to Clinton.

He cannot expect minorities to somehow spontaneously come to him, he has to somehow forcefully take his case to them. He cannot rely on young white progressives outside of small Northern states. Sanders cannot count on some sort of self inflicted Clinton meltdown. He has to force this issue or lose. If he cannot beat Clinton, it doesn't matter if he can beat Trump.
 
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