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Why did our universe begin? (Split from Atheist wins Nobel Prize thread)

Swammerdami

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In a 17-minute interview Roger Penrose explains his cyclic conformal cosmology. This YouTube is part of a "Closer To Truth" Channel with several Penrose interviews.
[YOUTUBE]ypjZF6Pdrws[/YOUTUBE]
 
Why did our universe begin?

I see two baseless assumptions in that leading question.
1. That the universe had a beginning.
2. That there was a reason for a beginning.

ETA:
If you watch the video, you will see that the point of Penrose's cosmological theory is that the question is a nonsense question.
 
I got there ahead of you. For me it was, "If man evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?" I caved and bought the Book of Mormon that day.
 
I got there ahead of you. For me it was, "If man evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?" I caved and bought the Book of Mormon that day.
[Future Biff hits past Biff in the back of the head.] It's "If monkeys evolved into man, why are there still monkeys?" You sound like a damn fool when you say it wrong!
 
Bomb#20 messes around with the relatives again.
:biggrin:

...
Till Brown of Calaveras brought a lot of fossil bones
That he found within a tunnel near the tenement of Jones.

Then Brown he read a paper, and he reconstructed there,
From those same bones, an animal that was extremely rare;
And Jones then asked the Chair for a suspension of the rules,
Till he could prove that those same bones was one of his lost mules.

Then Brown he smiled a bitter smile, and said he was at fault,
It seemed he had been trespassing on Jones’s family vault;
He was a most sarcastic man, this quiet Mr. Brown,
And on several occasions he had cleaned out the town.

Now I hold it is not decent for a scientific gent
To say another is an ass,—at least, to all intent;
Nor should the individual who happens to be meant
Reply by heaving rocks at him, to any great extent.
...

- Bret Harte
 
I got there ahead of you. For me it was, "If man evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?" I caved and bought the Book of Mormon that day.
[Future Biff hits past Biff in the back of the head.] It's "If monkeys evolved into man, why are there still monkeys?" You sound like a damn fool when you say it wrong!

If Christians evolved from Jews . . . . (why are their still Jews?) - saw this once on a bumper sticker, right under a Darwin Fish symbol.
 
What, when, where, how, who, why...

These question markers are at the heart of rational thought and open-minded enquiry.

It amazes me to see supposedly open-minded, rational, free thinkers running a million miles an hour to avoid the ontology of the Who and the Why.

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What, when, where, how, who, why...

These question markers are at the heart of rational thought and open-minded enquiry.

It amazes me to see supposedly open-minded, rational, free thinkers running a million miles an hour to avoid the ontology of the Who and the Why.

You can't rationally ask any of them until you're certain about the did.

Did our universe begin?

You might as well ask "Why do rocks fall upwards?" Until you have good evidence that they do, the why question is meaningless.
 
What, when, where, how, who, why...

These question markers are at the heart of rational thought and open-minded enquiry.

It amazes me to see supposedly open-minded, rational, free thinkers running a million miles an hour to avoid the ontology of the Who and the Why.

You can't rationally ask any of them until you're certain about the did.

Did our universe begin?

You might as well ask "Why do rocks fall upwards?" Until you have good evidence that they do, the why question is meaningless.


But, but, but, what about the
 Anthropic Principle

The philosophers of cosmology John Earman,[78]Ernan McMullin,[79] and Jesús Mosterín contend that "in its weak version, the anthropic principle is a mere tautology, which does not allow us to explain anything or to predict anything that we did not already know. In its strong version, it is a gratuitous speculation".[80] A further criticism by Mosterín concerns the flawed "anthropic" inference from the assumption of an infinity of worlds to the existence of one like ours:


The assumption that all possible worlds are realized in an infinite universe is equivalent to the assertion that any infinite set of numbers contains all numbers (or at least all Gödel numbers of the [defining] sequences), which is obviously false.

"Obviously!"

Never mind.
 
What, when, where, how, who, why...

These question markers are at the heart of rational thought and open-minded enquiry.

It amazes me to see supposedly open-minded, rational, free thinkers running a million miles an hour to avoid the ontology of the Who and the Why.


"Why are you a pedophile?"

If you refuse to answer why, then you must be afraid of the answer and "close-minded".
That is the "logic" of your post.

Rational, open minds don't invent meaningless questions just so they can invent a baseless answer that feels good to them. That is what dogmatic religious minds do.

"Why X?" has no meaning unless "Is X?" has already been established. If the Universe didn't actually have a beginning, then "Why it had a beginning" is nonsensical. And ageless and endless expansion-contraction model has no beginning. It doesn't really contradict the Big Bang model, b/c Big Bang theory can only explain the currently observable in the Universe. The theorized singularity would make observing anything prior to it (such as a previous expansion-contraction cycle) impossible. Thus, even if it is true, the claim that there was nothing prior to the Big Bang cannot in principle ever be supported by empirical science. The best we can hope for is that Penrose is correct and a prior expansion-contraction cycle might leave observable evidence and thus refute the "nothing before" assumption. But it might not leave observable evidence, in which case there will never be a rational basis to choose between the possibilities.

On another note, rational explanations usually entail "How?" and not "Why?", b/c "why" generally connotes teleological causality where there is some final ultimate end state or purpose for which the event to be explained occurred. The standard definition of "why" is "the cause, reason, or purpose for which" The "for which" implies the thing happened because it was useful for reaching some end state. IOW, "why" typically prompts explanations not based on preceding causal factors but upon a future state towards which the present is drawn. Since the future doesn't exist outside of an idea in sentient minds and their goals for the future, "why" explanations are biased towards the willful actions of sentient minds. If one is explanation a behavior of an already established and known to exist creature thought to have mental states, then "why" questions are appropriate. But outside of that they are sloppy shorthand for "how?" or biased attempts by the question askers (in this case Theists) to engage in "begging the question" by implying there must be a why and therefore there must be a sentient mind that is the explanation.

So, even if it established that the universe had a beginning, an answer to "How?" it began makes "Why?" it happened meaningless and/or redundant.
 
What, when, where, how, who, why...

These question markers are at the heart of rational thought and open-minded enquiry.

It amazes me to see supposedly open-minded, rational, free thinkers running a million miles an hour to avoid the ontology of the Who and the Why.


"Why are you a pedophile?"

Why don't you go back to TR?
 
'Why' questions are not anti-intellectual. They aren't at odds with rational thinking.

But if you want to stick your fingers in your ears lalalalala...and close your eyes and believe on faith that nothing is deliberately caused, so as to avoid 'why' questions, that seems pretty lazy/gutless.

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What, when, where, how, who, why...

These question markers are at the heart of rational thought and open-minded enquiry.
Interesting...
What was god created for?
When was god created?
How was god created?
Who created god?
Why (for what purpose) did they create god?

All pretty meaningless questions unless it was first established that there is a god and he had been created somehow.
 
I treat 'God' as just a syntactical place-holder, a linguistic convenience. Consider the German sentence Es gibt eine Welt or the French Il y a un monde ('There is a world'). Who or what is 'Es'? Or 'Il'?

In this view, the question 'Does God exist?' is pointless. The question should be 'What are God's properties?' Is God just pure mathematics? Nothingness? Some pure brain we cannot hope to fathom? A sociopath with human face who unleashes plagues or rain-storms when he gets angry? A circus huckster who will rig the lottery so you win, provided you send lots of cash to Jerry Falwell?
 
I treat 'God' as just a syntactical place-holder, a linguistic convenience. Consider the German sentence Es gibt eine Welt or the French Il y a un monde ('There is a world'). Who or what is 'Es'? Or 'Il'?

In this view, the question 'Does God exist?' is pointless. The question should be 'What are God's properties?' Is God just pure mathematics? Nothingness? Some pure brain we cannot hope to fathom? A sociopath with human face who unleashes plagues or rain-storms when he gets angry? A circus huckster who will rig the lottery so you win, provided you send lots of cash to Jerry Falwell?

God is a fictional character, and as with all fictional characters, his properties are anything the fanfic writer you are talking to at any given moment wants them to be. They need not be consistent even within a single work, though most critics would point out that internal inconsistencies are evidence of very bad fiction. Certainly they need not be consistent with other fanfic that features the same nominal character(s); And in the case of God, there's not even an agreement amongst any majority of the fan base as to which works (if any) are canonical, though there are a handful of camps that claim a core of canonical texts, with Christianity and Islam currently being the largest of these.

Of course, as with all passionately motivated fandoms, there's plenty of disagreement about what is or is not canon even within largely homogeneous sub-groups in these camps, so it's all pretty difficult for an outsider to follow.

That perhaps is the easiest heuristic to determine the likely truth value of a set of claims about reality. If the claim has a basis in the real world, then the number of schisms and sects it can produce is limited, and even widely separated traditions will converge on a core set of claims. So there's no difference between African physics, American physics, Asian physics, or European physics; But there are vast differences between religious claims between (and within) those regions, as fiction is unconstrained by any requirement to concord with reality.

Using this heuristic, we can surmise that mathematics and the hard sciences - physics, chemistry, biology - are likely a good reflection of reality; Soft sciences - sociology, economics, political science - are somewhat less so; and fictional speculations - religion, sci-fi, popular entertainment - need not reflect an underlying reality at all.
 
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