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Why did Trump tear-gas migrants at the border?

Which of the following is closest to the truth?

  • The border needs shutting down to protect American jobs.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The border needs shutting down to stop the invasion.

    Votes: 1 14.3%
  • The border needs shutting down to send a message to the Mexican government.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • It's TRUMP'S MOUTH which needs shutting down.

    Votes: 6 85.7%

  • Total voters
    7

Lumpenproletariat

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---- "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts."
Trump ordered these measures probably for the same reason President Obama did on several occasions.

Tear Gas Was Used At Border On Average Once Per Month During Obama Administration

Why? These measures would not be necessary if it were not for the "Jobs! Jobs! Jobs!" babble of Left-wing and Right-wing demagogues, who preach the Marxist dogma that cheap labor is bad for the economy.

There is a need for these job-seekers today especially. There could be a quick orderly process to take most of them in and allow them to contribute to the U.S. economy. But because of Left-wingers like Bernie Sanders and Thom Hartmann, who preach against cheap labor, and Right-wingers like Sean Hannity and Laura Ingraham who pander to nativists, especially to labor union nativists, and preach the Marxist slogans against cheap labor, these jobs go unfilled, and government raids are conducted against 7-11 and other employers of migrant (sometimes undocumented) workers.
 
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What is achieved by "shutting down" the border?

to save U.S. "jobs" (babysitting slots)?


Millions of dollars in commerce per day relies on the traffic going across the Southern California border. How can there be any net gain served by "shutting down" this traffic?

One right-wing talk-show host, Carl de Maio, says it might be necessary to "SHUT DOWN" the border in order to send a message to the Mexican government, to prompt them to do something to stop these migrants from crossing their territory to reach the U.S. And in fact Mexico has responded somewhat to this threat to "shut down" the border.

But how would the U.S. benefit from such a shut-down?

It's not true that ONLY MEXICO benefits from the commerce. Or that the U.S. benefit is relatively small. That shut-down of commerce would adversely affect Americans who rely on those jobs being performed. Millions of Americans would suffer from the economic loss.

Trump's "shut-down" theory is based on the false notion that it's mainly the workers who benefit from all the jobs which would be lost, and that the U.S. can afford the small sacrifice as a way to threaten Mexico. In other words, "jobs" are mainly something provided for the benefit of workers, as something to keep them out of mischief, or get them off the streets, out of pity for them, out of sympathy and generosity from the employer or the society providing these job slots in which to put people. Especially into factories, which are the best place to put them, according to Bernie Sanders and other Left-wing protectionists who want to "bring back the factories" for the benefit of American workers.

And so to keep the job slots open for the benefit of American workers, we have to keep out the foreign migrants who would STEAL these jobs from red-blooded Americans, and also "bring back the jobs" from China which stole them from us.

So the "jobs" philosophy of Sanders and Trump and the Left-wingers and Marxists and even Conservative protectionists is that "jobs" are mainly a gift to job-seekers provided to them out of pity, and so they must be reserved for OUR workers, for OUR economy in OUR country, while other countries must provide their own babysitting job slots rather than rely on the generous U.S. economy and employers as the providers of the coveted jobs slots.

WE CAN'T BE THE EMPLOYERS FOR THE WHOLE WORLD, they complain, having enough crybabies of our own to provide jobs for.

No? That's NOT the "jobs! jobs! jobs!" philosophy? Then what's the reason why we have to stop the outsiders from taking thousands/millions of these jobs? It's not because they're stealing "our jobs" and suppressing the wage level? How can this be explained, unless we are seeing jobs as some kind of babysitting slots for excess job-seekers who must be taken care of?

Why not instead don't we SHUT DOWN the Marxist crybaby labor-union rhetoric and recognize the obvious fact that

Cheap labor is good for the economy

????

How long must the economy be run by these Left- and Right-wing demagogues whose only attribute is their talent for preaching "jobs! jobs! jobs!" to the mob of nativist crybaby mindless idiots?
 
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Cheap labor from outside of the country is not good for workers, obviously. It limits their ability to organize for themselves and demand better conditions, since their demands will have less weight with the option to simply employ desperate poor people who care less about job quality. And of course, cheap labor isn't great for the people doing the labor. It's great for the capitalists though, and if what's good for capital is good for 'the economy' then of course you're right.

Mass migration itself is a symptom of a larger problem, though. Rather than trying to exploit the human suffering on display, we should ask what it is that makes people leave their birthplace in droves. Obviously we should reject the ignorant explanation that they are just too lazy to 'make their countries better', as if every citizen of every country has that ability to begin with. We have to look at the history of the region and what has happened to it and prevent it from happening elsewhere. Easier said than done, though.

I agree that jobs should not be an end in themselves. When people clamor for more jobs, what they really want is more income, more security for themselves and their families, more ability for 'self-valorisation' (spending money in ways that benefit their own aims as humans, and not just the goals of capital to keep them endlessly at work). But while workers need income to survive and want more of it to escape work, it makes sense to push for more of it, which is why I disagree that we should accept cheap labor as good for our interests.
 
Until there is independent verification of the claim about the Obama administration's use of tear gas at the border, there is no reason to accept the White House's claim of "fact".
 
There is a need for these job-seekers today especially. There could be a quick orderly process to take most of them in and allow them to contribute to the U.S. economy. But because of Left-wingers like Bernie Sanders and Thom Hartmann, who preach against cheap labor, and Right-wingers like Sean Hannity and Laura Ingraham who pander to nativists, especially to labor union nativists, and preach the Marxist slogans against cheap labor, these jobs go unfilled, and government raids are conducted against 7-11 and other employers of migrant (sometimes undocumented) workers.

Not sure how that follows.

Talking about the stagnation of wages for workers as the earnings and benefits of those at the top skyrocket is not preaching against cheap labor.

It is preaching against human greed and stupidity.

By keeping all increases for themselves instead of putting that wealth into the hands of people that will immediately spend it on goods the economy is less dynamic.

It is very stupid policy unless all you are governed by is greed and have no rational mind.
 
Those of us who were here during the Obama administration will never forget the outrage that broke out each of the times Obama used tear gas at the border.

Who can forget all the "Obama is literally Hitler" threads the progressives started.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-tear-gas-border-migrants/

Indeed. Obama was one of the worst offenders in terms of his treatment of immigrants, no doubting that. He often used to brag about it, which was an indicator of how he thought that appeasing his opponents was more important than doing the right thing.
 
Those of us who were here during the Obama administration will never forget the outrage that broke out each of the times Obama used tear gas at the border.

Who can forget all the "Obama is literally Hitler" threads the progressives started.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-tear-gas-border-migrants/

Indeed. Obama was one of the worst offenders in terms of his treatment of immigrants, no doubting that. He often used to brag about it, which was an indicator of how he thought that appeasing his opponents was more important than doing the right thing.

Well, sure and I remember the media used to hound him about it mercilessly. At least up until he curtailed the Freedom of the Press after the Reichstag fire.
 
Lower labor cost = lower prices = higher standard of living for ALL, including wage-earners.

Cheap labor from outside of the country is not good for workers, obviously.

Yes it is good for them -- i.e., most of them. It's good for ALL CONSUMERS. Aren't the workers consumers? Don't the workers benefit as consumers when they buy lower-cost products made by cheap labor? or pay lower prices as a result of the lower costs to business? in restaurants? in stores? from the farms? etc.? Who is the labor performing the work for? WE ALL BENEFIT! Otherwise why would they work here at all?


It limits their ability to organize for themselves and demand better conditions, . . .

That's what ALL competition does. Competition puts a limit on how much ANY producer can demand. And limits the ability of producers to form cartels and fix prices rather than compete.

If every producer is entitled to UNlimited ability to organize and demand higher prices and more favorable terms, then all competition has to be abolished and consumers must be forced to pay prices higher than the market value.

Isn't it good for immigrants to enter the country and start businesses to compete with the ones already here? Don't consumers benefit from this additional supply which competes with the existing supply? Why shouldn't this rule apply to ALL producers, to all companies and entrepreneurs, to all workers and all independent contractors and all professionals?

Isn't it good for immigrants to set up a small business which might compete with existing small businesses, with small street vendors, with independent contractors, with other producers big and small? Isn't ALL additional competition best for consumers? Why should there be ANY class of producers exempt from having to compete? Why should wage-earners be a privileged class of producers made exempt from having to compete?

. . . since their demands will have less weight with . . .

Yes, increased competition does put more pressure on any producer/worker, making it more difficult for them to demand higher prices. But that's why it's good for consumers, and thus to the whole economy. If the function of business is not to serve consumers, then what is it good for? Of course it's good for additional competitive pressure to be brought to bear on ALL producers/workers, so they have to either perform better, or they have to reduce their demand for compensation. That's how competition is supposed to work.

If you don't like having the demands of producers subject to such competitive pressure, then how far do you propose to suppress competition and promote cartels and price-fixing?

Why isn't it good for the POOR producers to also have to compete? Why shouldn't competition be the rule, to be applied equally to ALL producers, rich and poor, no matter what their class or what category of production they do?

. . . with the option to simply employ desperate poor people who care less about job quality.

Or who care MORE about job quality. You can't broad-brush ALL poor people as caring less about job quality. Where did you get this stereotype prejudicial bias against all poor people wanting to work? Can't the employer judge each applicant and determine which ones are likely to be more conscientious and which ones less? We can't trust employers to make the choice of who would perform the job better? Why isn't the employer competent to make this judgment? There is no evidence that immigrant workers are sloppier or dirtier or inferior or more careless in their performance of the work.

Though many of them are more desperate, this is a benefit, because they might take the job at lower compensation, which is a cost saving to the employer and thus indirectly to consumers who will benefit from lower prices as a result.


And of course, cheap labor isn't great for the people doing the labor.

It's good for ALL workers who are also consumers, because they benefit from the lower prices. I.e., each worker benefits from the cheap labor of all the other workers. All the workers are serving all the other workers as consumers. So everyone benefits, even the workers, from the overall lower labor cost.

It's the same as the benefit from automation. Some workers lose their jobs, but they all benefit from the increased automation generally throughout the economy. We're all better off today from the automation which took place 20 years ago. But at the time, a few workers were made worse off temporarily.

Of course each one of us individually would benefit from having our own wage increased by a factor of a million or ten million, as long as no one else gets such an increase.

But if every worker's wage was automatically doubled, by force, everyone -- all the workers -- would be made worse off.


It's great for the capitalists though, . . .

It's great for them as long as they still can pay enough in order to get the work done. If the law imposes a maximum wage, as did happen historically at times, it makes many of the capitalists worse off, because they couldn't find the workers they needed at such a low compensation level.

What's really great is whatever works best for consumers. And this means capitalists and workers are free to demand whatever they choose, for their own individual interest, and then the resulting competition ends up producing the best quality output at the lowest prices for consumers. If serving consumers is not what the market should do, then there's no reason to have any market or business or production.

Those producers/workers not earning enough then have to change in order to perform better and offer a better deal, and thus serve consumers better. But suppressing competition in order to show pity to certain producers, such as certain wage-earners, only makes consumers -- i.e., everyone -- worse off.

It's more competition which always makes us all better off, not showing pity to uncompetitive crybabies.

. . . and if what's good for capital is good for 'the economy' then of course you're right.

No, I'm right that What's good for CONSUMERS is good for "the economy" and thus for the whole country and for the world and all humans. Until you address what's good for consumers, your anti-business corporate-bashing Marxism is irrelevant.


Mass migration itself is a symptom of a larger problem, though. Rather than trying to exploit the human suffering on display, we should . . .

It's good to offer jobs to humans who are desperate. It makes them and everyone else better off. Why is it wrong to make everyone better off? Those who "exploit" these migrants are making those migrants and everyone else better off. As long as the migrants are free to make their choice and turn down an offer. The only time the "exploitation" is harmful is when they are forced or threatened with violence so they cannot make a free choice.

. . . we should ask what it is that makes people leave their birthplace in droves. Obviously we should reject the ignorant explanation that they are just too lazy to 'make their countries better', as if every citizen of every country has that ability to begin with. We have to look at the history of the region and what has happened to it and prevent it from happening elsewhere. Easier said than done, though.

But none of that prevents us also from hiring them for our benefit, and for theirs.


I agree that jobs should not be an end in themselves. When people clamor for more jobs, what they really want is more income, more security for themselves and their families, more ability for 'self-valorisation' (spending money in ways that benefit their own aims as humans, and not just the goals of capital to keep them endlessly at work). But while workers need income to survive and want more of it to escape work, it makes sense to push for more of it, which is . . .

If you mean push for higher labor cost per se, that means making everyone worse off. There can never be a reason to make anything more costly than necessary. Everything should cost the lowest possible price, while maintaining the same output or production or quality.

To deny this is to deny that anything has any value and that there is any "good" or "evil" or any "value" or "benefit" to anything in life. It is an absolute maxim that all costs should be made as low as possible, for the same output. Nothing else makes any sense. Or rather, if lower cost is not a universal good, then there is no "good" whatever in life, and everything is meaningless chaos serving no purpose imaginable. In which case, why are we even talking about any of this? It is all meaningless babble.


. . . which is why I disagree that we should accept cheap labor as good for our interests.

What "interests"? There are NO interests if anything should cost more than necessary in order to produce the desired output. "Interests" cannot exist unless they can be met at the least possible cost. "Cost" means sacrifice of interests. Higher "cost" means reduced satisfaction of interests.

You cannot increase the "cost" of something -- i.e., make the same thing cost more -- without decreasing what's good for "our interests."
 
Cheap labour is good for business owners and shareholders, those on the top of the heap we call society. For workers in that situation, too many workers competing for jobs, it may mean a race to the bottom, whoever is willing to work for less pay gets the job. This situation makes it necessary to set a minimum wage rate in Law.
 
Yes it is good for them -- i.e., most of them. It's good for ALL CONSUMERS. Aren't the workers consumers? Don't the workers benefit as consumers when they buy lower-cost products made by cheap labor? or pay lower prices as a result of the lower costs to business? in restaurants? in stores? from the farms? etc.? Who is the labor performing the work for? WE ALL BENEFIT! Otherwise why would they work here at all?

I'm only going to reply to this first point of yours because all the others rest upon it. Your assumption that lower wages equates to lower prices is not borne out in reality, because capitalists have no reason necessarily to pass on the savings of cheap labor to consumers. In fact, this is rarely what we see: plenty of products made by cheap labor are grossly overpriced. The extra surplus value reaped by the capitalists from cheap labor could just as easily be diverted to more comprehensive advertising, lobbying efforts to reduce government interference, higher dividends for the board of directors, and so on. When you take all those other outputs into account, how much is left for price reductions? And how do those reductions compare in magnitude to the reduction in labor cost shouldered by the workers? The answer is obvious to anyone who has eyes. If there is an opportunity to do so, capitalists will keep prices as high as possible, wages as low as possible, and take as much for themselves in form of profits as possible--why shouldn't they? Thus, the 1:1 relationship between labor costs and prices you propose is a fantasy, pure and simple.

It also leaves all the power in the hands of capital, who use their leverage over workers to impose labor beyond what we need to perform to sustain ourselves. In other words, to answer your question "why would they work here at all?" capital has seen to it that the choice for the vast majority of us is made under duress, at the peril of our homes, families, and health, while their choice of who to hire and fire is made in a far more secure zone of return on investment. You ask "who is the labor performing the work for" as if the answer was obvious, but given that every worker produces more value than they are paid to produce (otherwise they wouldn't be hired, because they would not help generate a profit), and given that the profit is not completely passed onto the consumer, the only possible answer is that the labor is for the benefit of the capitalists. As long as we are required to sell our time and energy as a matter of life and death, and are not given any direct way of controlling the surplus we create for capital, we will continue to present ourselves as willing and able to do more and more work. That keeps us from organizing alternative ways to sustain ourselves, outside of the market forces that dominate all exchange in capitalism. So, what you're describing is the trap that was prepared for you, and you've fallen for it hard.
 
Some major thread drift going on here, but I thought I'd lend my own opinion of why tear gas was used at the border a few days ago.

I believe it was at Trump's direction and done to inflame the situation to make it appear that there is some kind of National Emergency going on so he can rationalize his threat to close the border entirely.
Shitgibbon is willing to wreck anything - the US Constitution, the rule of law, the military - ANYTHING, as long as he thinks it plays to his base, put money in his own pocket or can help keep him out of jail.
 
Cheap labor = Win-Win-Win for consumers, job-seekers, and employers.

Your assumption that lower wages equates to lower prices is not borne out in reality, . . .

It does happen in reality. We see it clearly in some cases, but usually there is little empirical evidence in a particular case to prove that the lower prices were caused by the lower wages. You can always speculate that the lower prices are due to other factors, as in many cases of economic data where it's impossible to establish a cause-effect relation between one event and another. E.g., higher demand > higher prices, but this obviously cannot be proved with the empirical data in all cases, because you can speculate that something else might have caused the higher prices.

But we know that sellers increase or decrease their prices in order to maximize profit, reacting to change in demand, for which there is some evidence, though it cannot be proved because in any one case you can speculate that it was something other than a change in demand which drove the price up or down.

. . . because capitalists have no reason necessarily to pass on the savings of cheap labor to consumers.

Yes they have a reason to lower the price, necessarily, because this increases the sales and thus their revenue and profit. For any product there is a point where a higher price REDUCES the profit to the seller and a lower price INCREASES the profit. If the cost to the seller goes down, he maximizes his profit by reducing the price a certain amount. However, it's impossible to scientifically calculate how much the price must go up or down in order to hit the optimum profit level, in each case. But there are plenty of cases where the evidence confirms this pattern of higher cost > higher price and lower cost > lower price.

In most cases there are too many other factors at play to be able to prove that this or that change in production cost caused a corresponding change in price.


In fact, this is rarely what we see: plenty of products made by cheap labor are grossly overpriced.

That's a subjective judgment. From the point of view of the buyer, ANY price is too high. If a product is really overpriced, it means the seller loses profit by not reducing the price. I.e., it means the product isn't selling, and the seller is losing by being overstocked with that product which won't sell because the price is too high. So overpricing is automatically corrected by the market, which penalizes the seller who sets the price of it too high.


The extra surplus value reaped by the capitalists from cheap labor could just as easily be diverted to more comprehensive advertising, lobbying efforts to reduce government interference, higher dividends for the board of directors, and so on.

But only if the result would be higher profit to the company. If these uses of the revenue are not good for consumers, then the result will be lower return later, as the company's future revenue is negatively affected by its wrong choices of where to spend this surplus value.

The decision where to spend some new revenue now has to be driven by how it will affect the total revenue/profit later, and this is determined by how well the new spending decisions succeed at satisfying the later consumer demand. In all such decisions, the company has to consider the likely increased sales if it reduces its price (or reduces its future price increase). If it fails to consider this, then it makes the mistake of losing out on some future sales and higher profit it would have gained.

What prevents a seller from simply doubling all his prices? Your theory above assumes that in any case where a seller doubles his prices, his revenue doubles. You are ignoring the loss any seller suffers if he exceeds the optimum price level, which is the point where his profit declines if he raises the price above that level. That optimum price level always decreases a small amount with any reduced cost of production, all else being equal.


When you take all those other outputs into account, how much is left for price reductions?

There's always some, but usually no way to calculate this exactly, as a provable empirical fact.

If ALL the factors are taken into account, the prices seldom decrease and often increase gradually, because of the automatic on-going inflation. But each factor in isolation has its particular impact (whether it can be empirically calculated or not), so that a LOWER cost of production, in itself, always puts downward pressure on the price, thus making the price a little lower than it would have been otherwise without that cost reduction.

If the factors generally are driving the price upward, but a cost saving is added to this, such as lower labor cost, this cost saving is added to the other factors and causes the price increase to be less than it would have been otherwise.


And how do those reductions compare in magnitude to the reduction in labor cost shouldered by the workers?

That depends on the reduced value of the workers which caused the reduction of their wage. It's their reduced value which causes the reduced wage. If your value goes down, why shouldn't you shoulder that loss of price paid to you for your value? In the competition, values go up and down, and those paid for their contribution to the value experience a corresponding increase or decrease in what they are paid for their contribution to the changing values of what they produce.

If, instead of paying each contributor according to his/her added value, they instead are paid out of pity or compassion for them, this just means that others in the economy, such as consumers, suffer a resulting loss, since they are the ones who have to pay for that pity or compassion, because it inflicts cost onto everyone else if any producers are paid according to pity for them instead of paying them according to the value of their contribution. Any pity payments to producers is simply a higher cost inflicted onto someone else who must pay for it, who then becomes the new victim in need of pity.


The answer is obvious to anyone who has eyes. If there is an opportunity to do so, capitalists will keep prices as high as possible, wages as low as possible, . . .

That's what EVERYONE does. The wage-earner keeps his price (wage) as high as possible and his "wage" (price he pays for anything) as low as possible. Everyone pays for something and is paid for something. And everyone keeps what they're paid as high as possible and what they pay as low as possible. It is nonsensical to expect anyone in the economy to do otherwise.

. . . capitalists will keep prices as high as possible, wages as low as possible, and take as much for themselves in form of profits as possible--why shouldn't they?

Of course they do, as everyone does. You take all the profit you can, in the form of whatever payment is made to you, minus what you pay, which latter you keep as low as possible, to maximize your profit. Why shouldn't "capitalists" do this just as everyone else does?


Thus, the 1:1 relationship between labor costs and prices you propose is a fantasy, pure and simple.

Not just labor costs, but ALL costs of production. There are millions of examples in the real world of prices going up or down because of increasing or decreasing costs of production. You think it's a fantasy that production cost directly affects the price of the products?

No, the fantasy is to imagine that labor is in a special category whose value should only go up but never down. ALL the production costs are subject to change, upward or downward. And when any goes up it puts upward pressure on the price, or if it goes down it puts downward pressure on the price. The seller feels that pressure and must increase or decrease the price in order to maximize profit.

The fantasy is to pretend that labor cost is an exception to this rule, because it must never go down, as a moral imperative, because the economy has to feel sorry for the wage-earners and exempt them from having to compete, out of pity for them.


It also leaves all the power in the hands of capital, who use . . .

Which "capital"? Who? What is this entity wielding power over us? There's a huge amount of "capital" out there doing this and that. There is no one monolithic "capital" entity but millions/billions of capital units out there going one way or the other and driving us and pressuring us and intimidating us, in many directions, and from many directions. There is no one "power" but multiple powers all greater than any one of us, and we will always be helpless in comparison to them, no matter how much any worker gets paid or how little this or that tycoon takes in profit.

. . . who use their leverage over workers to impose labor beyond what we need to perform to sustain ourselves.

No, there's no one "capital" entity imposing any such thing. You freely choose to accept the terms of the "capitalist" you work for, and you fantasize being offered better terms, but no one imposes any labor onto you. You choose the labor you do to sustain yourself without anyone imposing it. Everyone uses whatever "leverage" they have to get as much as they can out of everyone else, but you're free to refuse anyone trying to "impose" anything onto you. If you do that labor, it's your choice to do it, to make you better off than the other possibilities.


In other words, to answer your question "why would they work here at all?" capital has seen to it that the choice for the vast majority . . .

No, there's no monolithic "capital" entity which sees to any such thing.

. . . that the choice for the vast majority of us is made under duress, at the peril of our homes, families, and health, while their choice . . .

No, just because you can fantasize having something better does not mean some monolithic "capital" Beast is imposing anything onto you. Nature intimidates us with threats to our homes and families and health etc. There's no "capital" monolith which invented all these hazards and uncertainties. Those in the middle-income brackets are more secure than those at the bottom. Those higher are generally more secure than those lower, but no matter what bracket you're in, those higher are more secure and those lower are less secure, so everyone can complain of feeling insecure by comparison to those higher.

. . . while their choice of who to hire and fire is made in a far more secure zone of return on investment.

Yes, everyone is less secure than those higher up. You are more secure than the millions down lower than yourself. That doesn't mean your choices are imposing anything onto those lower down, or that those below you are under duress from your investments.


You ask "who is the labor performing the work for" as if the answer was obvious, . . .

Ultimately it's the consumers who benefit, who are served by the capitalists. In the few cases where capitalists really are not serving consumers but are gaining profits, that is criminal, and those capitalists should be prosecuted for their crimes.

. . . but given that every worker produces more value than they are paid to produce (otherwise they wouldn't be hired, because they would not help generate a profit), and given that the profit is not completely passed onto the consumer, the only possible answer is that the labor is for the benefit of the capitalists.

But the profit not "passed on to the consumer" is the "wage" earned by the capitalist. Everyone is paid their wage for their contribution, and the only point of any of it is to benefit all consumers, or the whole society or nation. So it's for the benefit of everyone, i.e., all consumers, that the production is done.


As long as we are required to sell our time and energy as a matter of life and death, . . .

No one requires you to. It's only nature which requires you to perform work in order to survive. Other humans/capitalists only offer you choices, which you are free to accept or reject. Just as you offer choices to others when you hire them to perform something for you.

. . . time and energy as a matter of life and death, and are not given any direct way of controlling the surplus we create for capital, . . .

You don't "create" it as a wage-earner. The capitalists create it using your labor, which they could easily replace with someone else's labor if you choose not to provide it. Those who pay for the labor are the ones creating the wealth, not the laborers who are a dime and dozen.

. . . we will continue to present ourselves as willing and able to do more and more work. That keeps us from organizing alternative ways to sustain ourselves, outside of the market forces that . . .

Nothing prevents anyone from organizing alternative ways to sustain themselves. Alternative ways have been experimented with and are available to those willing to take the risk and make the investment in them.

. . . ways to sustain ourselves, outside of the market forces that dominate all . . .

Market forces are already circumvented in many ways, by labor laws and trade laws which prevent buyers and sellers from choosing freely. Many efforts are made, using laws and also emotion-driven crusades and moralistic preaching, to try to defeat the market forces of supply and demand, and to condemn capitalists and entrepreneurs and competitive job-seekers offering their labor at lower compensation, who would benefit the economy if allowed to perform their role of trying to meet the market demand.

So the market forces do not dominate all the economy, but are often thwarted, by labor unions and by government and lobbyists who demand favors for special interests, such as corporate welfare, imposing conditions "outside of the market forces" and thus making society poorer.

. . . that dominate all exchange in capitalism.

Not free-market forces. Some of the exchange in capitalism is done contrary to the free-market forces, which are prevented from operating in the best interest of consumers.

Where the free-market forces are allowed to operate, it's not because these "dominate" all exchange, but because these forces work best and are engaged in freely, as being the most efficient and thus producing the best outcomes and making everyone better off. People choose to engage in the market forces, without it being forced upon them, or "dominating" anything. The alternatives to the market forces don't exist usually because they are impractical, not because people aren't free to choose those alternatives.


So, what you're describing is the trap that was prepared for you, and you've fallen for it hard.

I benefit from cheap labor, if that's the "trap" you mean. I plead guilty to having "fallen for" the higher standard of living and lower prices we enjoy as a result of cheap labor. But those benefits would be even greater if we allowed ALL the cheap labor instead of outlawing some of it, as Trump and Bernie Sanders and others want to do.
 
Lumpenoproletariat said:
That depends on the reduced value of the workers which caused the reduction of their wage. It's their reduced value which causes the reduced wage.

Ahhh... there's your problem. Never mind.
 
Lumpenoproletariat said:
That depends on the reduced value of the workers which caused the reduction of their wage. It's their reduced value which causes the reduced wage.

Ahhh... there's your problem. Never mind.

Right. Cheap labor is good for everyone. Except the cheap laborer. But that's okay because we only need n many of them. Next decade, we need 2n of them... and eventually so many of them that, well:

cheap.JPG
 
Lumpenoproletariat said:
That depends on the reduced value of the workers which caused the reduction of their wage. It's their reduced value which causes the reduced wage.

Ahhh... there's your problem. Never mind.

Right. Cheap labor is good for everyone. Except the cheap laborer. But that's okay because we only need n many of them. Next decade, we need 2n of them... and eventually so many of them that, well:

View attachment 19172

People are buying cars--just not GM cars. The quality isn't there.
 
People are buying cars--just not GM cars. The quality isn't there.

I agree - partly. People ARE buying GM cars, just not the Chevy Cruz. They shouldn't have named it after Lyin' Ted!
OTOH, I also agree with Henry Ford, who observed that if he paid his own workers enough, they could buy his product.
I think manufacturers have turned a blind eye to that principle, because none of them alone has the effect on total national wage rates that the auto industry did at its inception.
 
Worker "value" -- or ANY "value" in the economy -- can be measured or quantified objectively.

Which does not mean the exact "value" in every case can be precisely calculated. But it can be approximated, and it can be determined whether certain factors drive it up or down. Objectively, verifiably.


The extra surplus value reaped by the capitalists from cheap labor could just as easily be diverted to more comprehensive advertising, lobbying efforts to reduce government interference, higher dividends for the board of directors, and so on. When you take all those other outputs into account, how much is left for price reductions?

But those diversions of the "surplus value" also contribute to lower prices, or to downward pressure on prices. So directly or indirectly the cost savings benefit consumers, through price reductions and/or increased production (higher supply).

And how do those reductions compare in magnitude to the reduction in labor cost shouldered by the workers?

That depends on the reduced value of the workers which caused the reduction of their wage. It's their reduced value which causes the reduced wage.

Ahhh... there's your problem. Never mind.

No, never minding answers nothing.

The "problem" here is that your understanding of worker "value" is a metaphysical or religious one, based on feeling or instinct or intuition, and which cannot be communicated to anyone who does not experience the same religious instincts you experience, which produce your worker "value" emotion.

But the worker "value" I refer to above is based on the scientific objective meaning of "value" in economics, which can be expressed by the supply-demand relation:

Higher demand > higher value, and
Higher supply > lower value.

These relations determine how to measure the value of anything productive in the economy, including the value produced by labor, or by a particular laborer.

The economic value of the worker, or that worker's contribution to the economy, depends on how much demand is satisfied by the work done and how much supply there is of such labor to perform that work. These two combined together = the value of the labor, or of that production, or of that producer.

But the "problem" with this is that you prefer a RELIGIOUS metaphysical doctrine of the worker value, which cannot be measured objectively, and so you have no way to communicate your theory of the worker value to anyone who does not already share your same instinct about "worker value" metaphysics.

Which is why you say "never mind," to express your inability to communicate objectively to those not of your religious faith about worker "value."

But the measure of worker value I'm relying on above is the objective or scientific measure based on the law of supply-and-demand and recognized in economics as an empirical measure, even though it's difficult to calculate precisely. But it's based on measurement of something observable and verifiable, whereas metaphysical doctrines of value, such as yours, cannot be measured or verified, being based on intuition only, which varies from one person's subjectivity to another's.
 
Some major thread drift going on here, but I thought I'd lend my own opinion of why tear gas was used at the border a few days ago.

Some "drift," but this does all tie together. Trump and his base are driven by the


"Jobs! Jobs! Jobs! Jobs!"

impulse. And the need to prop wages up.
 
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