Why do American workers tolerate 'At-Will' employment?

[coloradoatheist]

Yep..one good example was that person who stopped believing in the company culture to pay workers $70K. We had no problem letting her go to find someone who believed in that higher min wage for the company.

What do you mean "letting her go?"

Didn't she quit on her own?

Yes she did, bypassing the problem of having to let one worker go to protect others.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Turnover in the first five years is something like 50%. How does that turnover compare to other jobs?

I know turnover rate is high in the first THREE years (so you don't even have to wait for five). What I don't know is that the reason is tenure. Show me.

For reference, your quote

You think tenure is what stresses out teachers?

It was a very stressful system for teachers during those first three years because of the tenure system. Turnover is high during that time because of it.

Here is an article about it. Number 5 says that the percentage of teachers leaving involuntarily are between 20 and 36% of the teachers leaving. Is the percentage of people fired in the private sector the same

http://edexcellence.net/articles/public-school-teacher-attrition-and-mobility-in-the-first-five-years

 

[J842P]

I know turnover rate is high in the first THREE years (so you don't even have to wait for five). What I don't know is that the reason is tenure. Show me.

For reference, your quote

You think tenure is what stresses out teachers?

It was a very stressful system for teachers during those first three years because of the tenure system. Turnover is high during that time because of it.

Here is an article about it. Number 5 says that the percentage of teachers leaving involuntarily are between 20 and 36% of the teachers leaving. Is the percentage of people fired in the private sector the same

http://edexcellence.net/articles/public-school-teacher-attrition-and-mobility-in-the-first-five-years

You've established turnover is high during the first few years of teaching. Now, you need to establish that the high turnover is due to tenure.

 

[ZiprHead]

You can bet that I will be more likely to prefer to have fewer employees and the ones I do I have I'll be sure are the cream of the crop.

Seems to me that if you're not doing that now, then you are not doing your job.

 

[Axulus]

You can bet that I will be more likely to prefer to have fewer employees and the ones I do I have I'll be sure are the cream of the crop.

Seems to me that if you're not doing that now, then you are not doing your job.

And why is that? I have to pay them more to keep them around. How did you figure the additional cost is worth it?

Furthermore, I can potentially push my part timers up to 24 hours/week even though they might really prefer 20 hours/week and the customers might just need to wait an extra minute or two in line, and I can open up at 10:00 instead of 9:00 and close at 7:00 on Sundays, this way I can avoid having to hire an additional person. If the cost of having that additional person were cheaper and it were easier to let people go when needed, I could easily have another person, reduce wait times, and be open more hours.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I know turnover rate is high in the first THREE years (so you don't even have to wait for five). What I don't know is that the reason is tenure. Show me.

For reference, your quote

You think tenure is what stresses out teachers?

It was a very stressful system for teachers during those first three years because of the tenure system. Turnover is high during that time because of it.

Here is an article about it. Number 5 says that the percentage of teachers leaving involuntarily are between 20 and 36% of the teachers leaving. Is the percentage of people fired in the private sector the same

http://edexcellence.net/articles/public-school-teacher-attrition-and-mobility-in-the-first-five-years

Where in that article does it say that tenure stresses teachers?

 

[bilby]

Yep..one good example was that person who stopped believing in the company culture to pay workers $70K. We had no problem letting her go to find someone who believed in that higher min wage for the company.

What do you mean "letting her go?"

Didn't she quit on her own?

It's a euphemism. Even most hard-nosed managers are aware the firing someone without notice can ruin their life, and leave them unable to make a living, possibly for some time. By pretending that you are 'letting them go', you can neatly avoid all the worry, and pretend to yourself that you were doing them a favour, rather than fucking up their life. After all, who wants to feel uncomfortable about making somebody else miserable?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Because most Americans genuinely DON'T KNOW they live under "at will" hiring terms.

Believe me, that's a pretty jarring discovery when you get fired for what would otherwise be a totally illegal reason (e.g. for declining your boss' "suggestion" that you not take maternity leave or for being too pretty and potentially distracting to the horny executive assistant and god knows we can't afford another lawsuit) only to be told there's nothing you can do about it because you live in an "at will" state.

It seems that even people whose employment is 'At-will' do not understand just how few rights they have as an employee, until and unless they are capriciously or wrongfully dismissed - leading to their toleration and even support of a system that they would neither tolerate nor support if they understood it.

Nobody would stand for this crap if we all knew about it. The problem is, most of us don't know about it.

At will doesn't mean they can fire you for an illegal reason without consequences. If there's an issue is proving that you were fired for an illegal reason rather than a legal one.

- - - Updated - - -

The more you protect workers from being fired the harder it is to find a job and the higher the unemployment rate.

What works best is a growing economy with a growing employment rate. From the beginning of the Second World War to the inflationary recession of 1974 that is what the United States had. It is not clear how to restore such an economy, although politicians claim on the campaign trail that they know how to do it.

It can never be restored as it was based on being ahead of the rest of the world.

- - - Updated - - -

I've worked in many different places under many different circumstances. I prefer a workplace where management are decent folk who come to work everyday to get work done, and who wish to have a workforce with the same attitude. "At will" makes finding and maintaining just such a workforce much more doable, not to mention being able to satisfy customers, raise quality, introduce dynamic improvements, etc.

Other shops seem to make mediocrity the standard in my experience. "At will" works for me.

Yup. At will means you can get rid of problems.

 

[ZiprHead]

Seems to me that if you're not doing that now, then you are not doing your job.

And why is that? I have to pay them more to keep them around. How did you figure the additional cost is worth it?

Furthermore, I can potentially push my part timers up to 24 hours/week even though they might really prefer 20 hours/week and the customers might just need to wait an extra minute or two in line, and I can open up at 10:00 instead of 9:00 and close at 7:00 on Sundays, this way I can avoid having to hire an additional person. If the cost of having that additional person were cheaper and it were easier to let people go when needed, I could easily have another person, reduce wait times, and be open more hours.

I took it to mean you are not hiring the cream of the crop at this time and paying for unnecessary employees.