• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Why Religion?

Marvin Edwards

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2021
Messages
815
Location
Virginia
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
Humanists may consider themselves secular or religious. Many of us who grew up in a church may miss the spiritual support it provides. In college, I often went to the Unitarian Coffee House, an area for talks, games, and snacks on Friday nights.

When it was time to marry, we called on Reverend Gold from the UU church in Richmond who counseled us and performed the service in the park.

A church, any church, provides spiritual support for moral people seeking to be good and to do good. The camaraderie, the music, the message, all contribute to maintaining a “holy spirit”, that is to say, “feeling good about doing good and being good”.

And it helps to have that support in a world where the wicked often profit at the expense of the rest of us.

But a formal church is not a necessity. We also have the camaraderie of the authors we read, the discussions with like-minded people, and even discussions with people who disagree but help us clarify our faith.

And, yes, it is a matter of faith. All churches that claim to follow God, also declare God to be Good. And it is our faith in Good that sustains us.
 

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
9,423
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
Religion has always provided social service and community.

Community is also

Music bands fans
Secular philosophy groups
Literature groups, like LOTR devotees

Religion is one of many forms of community.

Some of us atheists believe you do not need religion and god to be good neighbors, good citizens, and good people.

If a form of religion improves your life. then good for you. Until it intrudes on my life and demeans me because I do not believe as you do. Then I push back.
 

southernhybrid

Contributor
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
6,449
Location
Georgia, US
Basic Beliefs
atheist
While religion does usually provide community, and opportunities for charity, there is something about myths or what we atheists often refer to as woo, that draws many to believe. It's debatable whether religion provides moral values. Sometimes it does but other times it does the opposite, by pitting people against each other and making people feel as if they are the chosen, the elect, the saved etc.
 

ideologyhunter

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Messages
4,800
Location
Port Clinton, Ohio
Basic Beliefs
atheism/beatnikism
When you encounter a basically benevolent, mild-mannered believer, one who strives to do something for the community, one whose goal is to leave things better than they were before his/her existence on the planet -- that's who they are. That's who they were before they came to religion. If they didn't have the basics of that positive nature, they wouldn't have been drawn to the perceived moral message in the faith.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WAB

SLD

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2001
Messages
3,688
Location
Birmingham, Alabama
Basic Beliefs
Freethinker
I confessed to a friend that I couldn’t go to church anymore because I just couldn’t believe it and didn’t want to be a hypocrite. He said he understood and he didn’t believe the stories either, but he could never leave his church, they helped him through a difficult divorce and have been a support group all of his life. He’s a deacon, now! Doesn’t believe in the Bible though. He just believes in the church as an important institution.
 

ideologyhunter

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Messages
4,800
Location
Port Clinton, Ohio
Basic Beliefs
atheism/beatnikism
My grandmother (1902-1999) was one great lady, and a churchgoer up to the point where she couldn't walk anymore. She loved her church, thought it was full of good upstanding people, and admired the speaking skills of the ministers. But she never once preached Jesus to any of us. And she once told my mother, "There's no pie in the sky. This is it!" From that, I got the idea at once that she really wasn't Christian, she was an attendee at a Christian church. I didn't say that to her -- partly because it seemed confrontational, partly because I was (and am) a very snarky atheist, and who needs that? And anyway, she was a good upstanding person, very forthright and productive and a positive influence on me. If she enjoyed her weekly hour at church, fine. It would bore the hell out of me, especially all the God and Jesus shit. But she liked it and it was an important part of her social life.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
26,844
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
There's nothing a church can usefully do that can't be done at least as well by a secular organisation.

However, even in secular nations, church provision of social services, both formal and informal, frequently pushes out secular provision, leaving religion with a monopoly. As this automatically denies or obstructs service to those of the wrong religion, or of none, it represents a lower standard of service than should be provided.

As a result, even the best intentioned and most valuable provision of social services by religious organisations is harmful to society.

And of course, many church activities are positively harmful and corrosive to society. The good stuff isn't the norm, and isn't as good as an equivalent secular activity would be.
 

Gnostic Christian Bishop

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
763
Location
Canada
Basic Beliefs
Gnostic Christian & esoteric ecumenist
And, yes, it is a matter of faith. All churches that claim to follow God, also declare God to be Good. And it is our faith in Good that sustains us.

Faith is not wanting to know the truth.

Faith without facts is for fools.

Faith has made good people adore a genocidal, homophobic and misogynous god.

How a humanist can be a Christian is beyond me as they are not good for more than half of all humans.

Find a better god, like a Gnostic Christian god, or stay associated with a satanic religion.



Regards
DL
 

Marvin Edwards

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2021
Messages
815
Location
Virginia
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
And, yes, it is a matter of faith. All churches that claim to follow God, also declare God to be Good. And it is our faith in Good that sustains us.

Faith is not wanting to know the truth.

Faith without facts is for fools.

Faith has made good people adore a genocidal, homophobic and misogynous god.

How a humanist can be a Christian is beyond me as they are not good for more than half of all humans.

Find a better god, like a Gnostic Christian god, or stay associated with a satanic religion.



Regards
DL


I think the story of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son, and then given a sheep to sacrifice instead, is about putting an end to human sacrifices. I suspect that many religions, even Judaism, may have practiced human sacrifice in the earliest times. Ending that practice would be a step forward in the evolution of morality.

The actions of the Hebrew God could be justified by omniscience. Having foreknowledge of the ultimate result of his actions, that the final ends were better than they would be had he not taken these steps, could be taken to justify his actions. These steps could not be taken by mortals, without such foreknowledge.

And the plagues upon Egypt's Pharaoh were specifically aimed to free the slaves. There were rules in the OT about how long a person could be held as a slave, and I think some rules required offering marriage to female slaves after a period of time, or if the slave chose not to marry she would be released.

The faith that I'm speaking of is about living in a world which was basically a good place, where a heavenly father looked after you, and where there was no fear of death due to the promise of a Heaven afterward.

Granted, this world of Jewish tradition was not a welcoming place for gays. Other religions, like Ancient Greece and I think maybe Native Americans, had no problems with gays. The Greeks encouraged their soldiers to have sexual relations with the younger men they mentored due to a lack of women in the barracks.

But morality evolves. I'm trying to think of the name of the television evangelist who was preaching against gays until one of his closest assistants pulled him aside to tell him he was gay.

The Christian god, Jesus Christ, was tolerant and loving, with never a word criticizing gays, even though Paul came out strongly against them, perhaps due to his Jewish upbringing. But Paul also moved against many of the OT rules, because he was recruiting Gentiles. Romans chapter 14 goes into that. And Paul had a rather radical statement in Romans 14:14, which opened a door.

Anyway, the God that I grew up with was mostly friendly and supportive. But I did become a bit neurotic over the possibility that I might sin and die immediately after without the opportunity to ask forgiveness and go to Hell. So, I would certainly endorse that part of your child harm message.

But I would have to reject the notion that God is Satan. God stands for Good. And the Devil stands for Evil. That's the way we were raised.
 
Last edited:

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
9,423
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
And of course Bishop Gnostic represents the whole truth and nuthin' but the truth. So help him his god of nature.
 

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
9,423
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
And, yes, it is a matter of faith. All churches that claim to follow God, also declare God to be Good. And it is our faith in Good that sustains us.

Faith is not wanting to know the truth.

Faith without facts is for fools.

Faith has made good people adore a genocidal, homophobic and misogynous god.

How a humanist can be a Christian is beyond me as they are not good for more than half of all humans.

Find a better god, like a Gnostic Christian god, or stay associated with a satanic religion.



Regards
DL


I think the story of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son, and then given a sheep to sacrifice instead, is about putting an end to human sacrifices. I suspect that many religions, even Judaism, may have practiced human sacrifice in the earliest times. Ending that practice would be a step forward in the evolution of morality.

The actions of the Hebrew God could be justified by omniscience. Having foreknowledge of the ultimate result of his actions, that the final ends were better than they would be had he not taken these steps, could be taken to justify his actions. These steps could not be taken by mortals, without such foreknowledge.

And the plagues upon Egypt's Pharaoh were specifically aimed to free the slaves. There were rules in the OT about how long a person could be held as a slave, and I think some rules required offering marriage to female slaves after a period of time, or if the slave chose not to marry she would be released.

The faith that I'm speaking of is about living in a world which was basically a good place, where a heavenly father looked after you, and where there was no fear of death due to the promise of a Heaven afterward.

Granted, this world of Jewish tradition was not a welcoming place for gays. Other religions, like Ancient Greece and I think maybe Native Americans, had no problems with gays. The Greeks encouraged their soldiers to have sexual relations with the younger men they mentored due to a lack of women in the barracks.

But morality evolves. I'm trying to think of the name of the television evangelist who was preaching against gays until one of his closest assistants pulled him aside to tell him he was gay.

The Christian god, Jesus Christ, was tolerant and loving, with never a word criticizing gays, even though Paul came out strongly against them, perhaps due to his Jewish upbringing. But Paul also moved against many of the OT rules, because he was recruiting Gentiles. Romans chapter 14 goes into that. And Paul had a rather radical statement in Romans 14:14, which opened a door.

Anyway, the God that I grew up with was mostly friendly and supportive. But I did become a bit neurotic over the possibility that I might sin and die immediately after without the opportunity to ask forgiveness and go to Hell. So, I would certainly endorse that part of your child harm message.

But I would have to reject the notion that God is Satan. God stands for Good. And the Devil stands for Evil. That's the way we were raised.


God insight on the meaning of the sheep.
 

Gnostic Christian Bishop

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
763
Location
Canada
Basic Beliefs
Gnostic Christian & esoteric ecumenist
And, yes, it is a matter of faith. All churches that claim to follow God, also declare God to be Good. And it is our faith in Good that sustains us.

Faith is not wanting to know the truth.

Faith without facts is for fools.

Faith has made good people adore a genocidal, homophobic and misogynous god.

How a humanist can be a Christian is beyond me as they are not good for more than half of all humans.

Find a better god, like a Gnostic Christian god, or stay associated with a satanic religion.



Regards
DL


I think the story of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son, and then given a sheep to sacrifice instead, is about putting an end to human sacrifices. I suspect that many religions, even Judaism, may have practiced human sacrifice in the earliest times. Ending that practice would be a step forward in the evolution of morality.

The actions of the Hebrew God could be justified by omniscience. Having foreknowledge of the ultimate result of his actions, that the final ends were better than they would be had he not taken these steps, could be taken to justify his actions. These steps could not be taken by mortals, without such foreknowledge.

And the plagues upon Egypt's Pharaoh were specifically aimed to free the slaves. There were rules in the OT about how long a person could be held as a slave, and I think some rules required offering marriage to female slaves after a period of time, or if the slave chose not to marry she would be released.

The faith that I'm speaking of is about living in a world which was basically a good place, where a heavenly father looked after you, and where there was no fear of death due to the promise of a Heaven afterward.

Granted, this world of Jewish tradition was not a welcoming place for gays. Other religions, like Ancient Greece and I think maybe Native Americans, had no problems with gays. The Greeks encouraged their soldiers to have sexual relations with the younger men they mentored due to a lack of women in the barracks.

But morality evolves. I'm trying to think of the name of the television evangelist who was preaching against gays until one of his closest assistants pulled him aside to tell him he was gay.

The Christian god, Jesus Christ, was tolerant and loving, with never a word criticizing gays, even though Paul came out strongly against them, perhaps due to his Jewish upbringing. But Paul also moved against many of the OT rules, because he was recruiting Gentiles. Romans chapter 14 goes into that. And Paul had a rather radical statement in Romans 14:14, which opened a door.

Anyway, the God that I grew up with was mostly friendly and supportive. But I did become a bit neurotic over the possibility that I might sin and die immediately after without the opportunity to ask forgiveness and go to Hell. So, I would certainly endorse that part of your child harm message.

But I would have to reject the notion that God is Satan. God stands for Good. And the Devil stands for Evil. That's the way we were raised.


So was I, then reached the age of reason, and recognized that a genocidal, homophobic and misogynous god was an evil god.

Gnostic Christians condemned that prick to hell 2,000 years ago. Not that he exists.

All moral people today will do the same.

God, like all concepts i know of is dualistic.

That is why scriptures have him creating all that is good and or evil, for his pleasure.

Your god was friendly and supportive, perhaps, but ask any gay or woman who venerates equality for all it he is friendly towards them.

Regards
DL
 

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
9,423
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
Plagues intended to free slaves? God works in mysterious ways don't he?

I have only heard this generally broached once in public media discussion.

For example if Jews were e preferred people of a god, why did they end up as a slaves to begin with? What were they doing wrong? Did they offend god?

The biblical tales both OT ad NT are MYTHOLOGY. The Egypt narrative is a Jewish myth, there is no evidence. In fact archeological evidence does not indicate any such captivity in Egypt. Excavation of workers' quarters near a pyramid indicate a community that lived well by the standards of the day.
 

ideologyhunter

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Messages
4,800
Location
Port Clinton, Ohio
Basic Beliefs
atheism/beatnikism
For example if Jews were e preferred people of a god, why did they end up as a slaves to begin with? What were they doing wrong? Did they offend god?
Good point -- the OT puffs up the might and 'chosenness' of Israel, then brings in psalms and prophet after prophet to tell them that their woes are the result of turning their backs on God -- setting the stage for our televangelists today, interpreting hurricanes in terms of LGBTQ acceptance. You can still make a living out of it.
 

Gnostic Christian Bishop

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
763
Location
Canada
Basic Beliefs
Gnostic Christian & esoteric ecumenist
For example if Jews were e preferred people of a god, why did they end up as a slaves to begin with? What were they doing wrong? Did they offend god?
Good point -- the OT puffs up the might and 'chosenness' of Israel, then brings in psalms and prophet after prophet to tell them that their woes are the result of turning their backs on God -- setting the stage for our televangelists today, interpreting hurricanes in terms of LGBTQ acceptance. You can still make a living out of it.

That shows how many gullible and downright stupid people we still produce.

The intelligent and moral know that the god religions are selling an evil theology with homophobia and misogyny as staples.

Regards
DL
 

Learner

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
3,122
Location
Between two Cities
Basic Beliefs
Christian and Common Sense
How intriguing to see desperate biblical misrepresentation. Has anyone ever noticed that there's also hetrosexual 'fornication' on the list, also not accepted? Few more on the list for you... Drunkards, thieves and liars too.
 

ideologyhunter

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Messages
4,800
Location
Port Clinton, Ohio
Basic Beliefs
atheism/beatnikism
I've never heard a televangelist blame a hurricane on hetero adultery or burglary or perjury, but I have heard 'em blame hurricanes on acceptance of gays. The whole Fred Phelps band of morons was based on God's judgment on our military because of gay rights.
 

Learner

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
3,122
Location
Between two Cities
Basic Beliefs
Christian and Common Sense
I suppose biblical misrepresentation could apply to those televangelist too. You'll witness that I won't be promoting or going with that notion. :)
 

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
9,423
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
All biblical integrations are personal representations. The NT has very few direct quotes attributed to Jesus, as such just about all of Christian theology is a misrepresentation, not knowing exactly who JC may have been and what he was actually about.
Today Christians argue over who are the real Christians. I knew Evangelicals who reject both Mormons and Catholic as not being bible based.

Christians since the beginning did not agree and a 'true' interpretation of scripture. As I remember from grade school the RCC says it s the 'one true universal apostolic Christian church' or something like that. Be a Catholic or go to hell.

The pope is the arbiter of what is correct interpretation on Earth. The RCC interprets the NT as a source of authority. Jesus said to Peter on this rock I will build my church, Peter was the first 'pope' as bishop of Rome. All popes are in a line of succession back to Peter Therefore the RCC was ordained by Jesus.
 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,171
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Humanists may consider themselves secular or religious. Many of us who grew up in a church may miss the spiritual support it provides. In college, I often went to the Unitarian Coffee House, an area for talks, games, and snacks on Friday nights.

When it was time to marry, we called on Reverend Gold from the UU church in Richmond who counseled us and performed the service in the park.

A church, any church, provides spiritual support for moral people seeking to be good and to do good. The camaraderie, the music, the message, all contribute to maintaining a “holy spirit”, that is to say, “feeling good about doing good and being good”.

And it helps to have that support in a world where the wicked often profit at the expense of the rest of us.

But a formal church is not a necessity. We also have the camaraderie of the authors we read, the discussions with like-minded people, and even discussions with people who disagree but help us clarify our faith.

And, yes, it is a matter of faith. All churches that claim to follow God, also declare God to be Good. And it is our faith in Good that sustains us.

I've stopped seeing religion as necessarily being about God or the supernatural. Today I see it in functional terms. A religion is any kind of nucleus to meet around. Could be ideological, a shared interest or a shared goal. The point is that it allows us to let go of our individuality for a bit and become part of a greater whole. We like it because we're a social species and it feels nice.

The point isn't to reach the goal. The point is to meet people and do stuff together. To create a space where we feel safe and we can express a part of ourselves.

The stuff we do creates a shared identity. We like putting symbols and names onto the identity.

For various reasons some of these we institutionalized.

The awesome feeling we get from being part of these associations have led some of us to insert magical reasons. So these are often, but not always, places for spiritual exploration. Which often leads to belief in gods. We also like being part of these groups that in part are mysterious. Which adds to the need to make it magical.

That's my view of religion. Super vague. Super open. Nebulous.

And most importantly, everybody with a functioning social life is religious in some way or another. It's unavoidable IMHO.

I've stopped slamming Christians for being religious. One day I realized my glass house was windy. I too have had (and probably still have) a bunch of beliefs I hold only because it grants me access to people I want to hang out with. I think it's normal for socially competent people
 

Gnostic Christian Bishop

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
763
Location
Canada
Basic Beliefs
Gnostic Christian & esoteric ecumenist
Humanists may consider themselves secular or religious. Many of us who grew up in a church may miss the spiritual support it provides. In college, I often went to the Unitarian Coffee House, an area for talks, games, and snacks on Friday nights.

When it was time to marry, we called on Reverend Gold from the UU church in Richmond who counseled us and performed the service in the park.

A church, any church, provides spiritual support for moral people seeking to be good and to do good. The camaraderie, the music, the message, all contribute to maintaining a “holy spirit”, that is to say, “feeling good about doing good and being good”.

And it helps to have that support in a world where the wicked often profit at the expense of the rest of us.

But a formal church is not a necessity. We also have the camaraderie of the authors we read, the discussions with like-minded people, and even discussions with people who disagree but help us clarify our faith.

And, yes, it is a matter of faith. All churches that claim to follow God, also declare God to be Good. And it is our faith in Good that sustains us.

I've stopped seeing religion as necessarily being about God or the supernatural. Today I see it in functional terms. A religion is any kind of nucleus to meet around. Could be ideological, a shared interest or a shared goal. The point is that it allows us to let go of our individuality for a bit and become part of a greater whole. We like it because we're a social species and it feels nice.

The point isn't to reach the goal. The point is to meet people and do stuff together. To create a space where we feel safe and we can express a part of ourselves.

The stuff we do creates a shared identity. We like putting symbols and names onto the identity.

For various reasons some of these we institutionalized.

The awesome feeling we get from being part of these associations have led some of us to insert magical reasons. So these are often, but not always, places for spiritual exploration. Which often leads to belief in gods. We also like being part of these groups that in part are mysterious. Which adds to the need to make it magical.

That's my view of religion. Super vague. Super open. Nebulous.

And most importantly, everybody with a functioning social life is religious in some way or another. It's unavoidable IMHO.

I've stopped slamming Christians for being religious. One day I realized my glass house was windy. I too have had (and probably still have) a bunch of beliefs I hold only because it grants me access to people I want to hang out with. I think it's normal for socially competent people

Yes yes.

We are all sinners, thank all the God like us.

We all share in singing with Christians of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.

You seem to forget that while you praise the good side of the god religions, those bastards continue to promote homophobia and misogyny and that a genocidal god is somehow a good God.

Gotta love um. Cant respect um; given the harm the right wing supernatural believing fools continue to do to us.

Regards
DL
 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,171
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Humanists may consider themselves secular or religious. Many of us who grew up in a church may miss the spiritual support it provides. In college, I often went to the Unitarian Coffee House, an area for talks, games, and snacks on Friday nights.

When it was time to marry, we called on Reverend Gold from the UU church in Richmond who counseled us and performed the service in the park.

A church, any church, provides spiritual support for moral people seeking to be good and to do good. The camaraderie, the music, the message, all contribute to maintaining a “holy spirit”, that is to say, “feeling good about doing good and being good”.

And it helps to have that support in a world where the wicked often profit at the expense of the rest of us.

But a formal church is not a necessity. We also have the camaraderie of the authors we read, the discussions with like-minded people, and even discussions with people who disagree but help us clarify our faith.

And, yes, it is a matter of faith. All churches that claim to follow God, also declare God to be Good. And it is our faith in Good that sustains us.

I've stopped seeing religion as necessarily being about God or the supernatural. Today I see it in functional terms. A religion is any kind of nucleus to meet around. Could be ideological, a shared interest or a shared goal. The point is that it allows us to let go of our individuality for a bit and become part of a greater whole. We like it because we're a social species and it feels nice.

The point isn't to reach the goal. The point is to meet people and do stuff together. To create a space where we feel safe and we can express a part of ourselves.

The stuff we do creates a shared identity. We like putting symbols and names onto the identity.

For various reasons some of these we institutionalized.

The awesome feeling we get from being part of these associations have led some of us to insert magical reasons. So these are often, but not always, places for spiritual exploration. Which often leads to belief in gods. We also like being part of these groups that in part are mysterious. Which adds to the need to make it magical.

That's my view of religion. Super vague. Super open. Nebulous.

And most importantly, everybody with a functioning social life is religious in some way or another. It's unavoidable IMHO.

I've stopped slamming Christians for being religious. One day I realized my glass house was windy. I too have had (and probably still have) a bunch of beliefs I hold only because it grants me access to people I want to hang out with. I think it's normal for socially competent people

Yes yes.

We are all sinners, thank all the God like us.

We all share in singing with Christians of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.

You seem to forget that while you praise the good side of the god religions, those bastards continue to promote homophobia and misogyny and that a genocidal god is somehow a good God.

Gotta love um. Cant respect um; given the harm the right wing supernatural believing fools continue to do to us.

Regards
DL

I didn't say it was good. I said we do it because it feels nice, and that it is unavoidable for our species. I also said that it often leads us to compromise on what we should know is true. Which is bad.
 

atrib

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
1,901
Location
Columbia, SC
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
I think the story of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son, and then given a sheep to sacrifice instead, is about putting an end to human sacrifices. I suspect that many religions, even Judaism, may have practiced human sacrifice in the earliest times. Ending that practice would be a step forward in the evolution of morality.

The best way to end human sacrifice is by asking a person to sacrifice their son? Or by creating a clone that is brutally sacrificed to allow god to forgive all the broken humans he created? How could any of this be consistent with a step forward in the evolution of morality?

The actions of the Hebrew God could be justified by omniscience. Having foreknowledge of the ultimate result of his actions, that the final ends were better than they would be had he not taken these steps, could be taken to justify his actions. These steps could not be taken by mortals, without such foreknowledge.

An all-powerful god has no way to achieve his objectives without harming humans? Sounds like a weak-ass god to me.

And the plagues upon Egypt's Pharaoh were specifically aimed to free the slaves. There were rules in the OT about how long a person could be held as a slave, and I think some rules required offering marriage to female slaves after a period of time, or if the slave chose not to marry she would be released.

Instead of providing rules to slave-owners about how slaves should be treated, why not just say "Slavery is immoral. No human shall ever own another human as a slave"? I mean he did ban eating shellfish and wearing clothes made from mixed fabrics, but he couldn't tell us not to own slaves?
 

atrib

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
1,901
Location
Columbia, SC
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
For example if Jews were e preferred people of a god, why did they end up as a slaves to begin with? What were they doing wrong? Did they offend god?
Good point -- the OT puffs up the might and 'chosenness' of Israel, then brings in psalms and prophet after prophet to tell them that their woes are the result of turning their backs on God -- setting the stage for our televangelists today, interpreting hurricanes in terms of LGBTQ acceptance. You can still make a living out of it.

That shows how many gullible and downright stupid people we still produce.

The intelligent and moral know that the god religions are selling an evil theology with homophobia and misogyny as staples.

Religiosity - the willingness to believe in fantastical man-made stories and live a life dominated by these stories has little to with intelligence, in my experience. I think some of us are naturally predisposed to believe in gods, while some of us aren't. There may be/may have been some evolutionary benefit to our species for holding such beliefs, or it may be a side effect of some other characteristic, we don't know for sure.
 

atrib

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
1,901
Location
Columbia, SC
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
How intriguing to see desperate biblical misrepresentation. Has anyone ever noticed that there's also hetrosexual 'fornication' on the list, also not accepted? Few more on the list for you... Drunkards, thieves and liars too.

Why should fornicators be placed in the same bucket as drunkards, thieves and liars? While drunkards, thieves and liars may be harming others or themselves through such activities, fornication between consenting adults can and does increase the well being of humans. Why should fornication be banned? What is wrong with two or more consenting adults having sex?
 

atrib

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
1,901
Location
Columbia, SC
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
I suppose biblical misrepresentation could apply to those televangelist too. You'll witness that I won't be promoting or going with that notion. :)

Whose fault is that the Bible can be easily misrepresented/misunderstood? Couldn't your God have written a better book, one that was impossible to misunderstand? Couldn't your God show up and instruct people on how the Bible should be correctly interpreted?
 

ideologyhunter

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Messages
4,800
Location
Port Clinton, Ohio
Basic Beliefs
atheism/beatnikism
I suppose biblical misrepresentation could apply to those televangelist too. You'll witness that I won't be promoting or going with that notion. :)

Whose fault is that the Bible can be easily misrepresented/misunderstood? Couldn't your God have written a better book, one that was impossible to misunderstand? Couldn't your God show up and instruct people on how the Bible should be correctly interpreted?

God couldn't keep factual mistakes out of "His Book", i.e., Mark 1:2 saying Isaiah when he should have said Malachi. He also didn't act to get correct attributions on about half the NT books, let alone preserve definitive original manuscripts. Why, it's almost like this was just done by humans.
 

Learner

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
3,122
Location
Between two Cities
Basic Beliefs
Christian and Common Sense
I suppose biblical misrepresentation could apply to those televangelist too. You'll witness that I won't be promoting or going with that notion. :)

Whose fault is that the Bible can be easily misrepresented/misunderstood? Couldn't your God have written a better book, one that was impossible to misunderstand? Couldn't your God show up and instruct people on how the Bible should be correctly interpreted?

Strange you ask..

Atheists used to argue to some Christians like "Jesus never said this or that (written as saying literally) about gays... in the bible etc.." Has this method of textual scrutiny changed? Have you (plural) become lazy?

In regards to when I mentioned misrepresentation. I meant it as... the misrpresentation it seems to me, is a desperate attempt to add whats not there, willy nilly for that "extra effect."
 

Learner

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
3,122
Location
Between two Cities
Basic Beliefs
Christian and Common Sense
How intriguing to see desperate biblical misrepresentation. Has anyone ever noticed that there's also hetrosexual 'fornication' on the list, also not accepted? Few more on the list for you... Drunkards, thieves and liars too.

Why should fornicators be placed in the same bucket as drunkards, thieves and liars? While drunkards, thieves and liars may be harming others or themselves through such activities, fornication between consenting adults can and does increase the well being of humans. Why should fornication be banned? What is wrong with two or more consenting adults having sex?

Missed this one...

Well you don't seem to know the context of two consenting people and the biblical concept relating to marriage and loyalty of two people. Besides its also placed there, because fornication can cause harm too e.g. a tool for blackmail, or persuasion such as sex has that power to get people to do all sorts of things from bribery, espionage, betrayals, suicides to even murder... Lusts of all kinds from fornication, I refer to, as described in the bible.
 

atrib

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
1,901
Location
Columbia, SC
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
I suppose biblical misrepresentation could apply to those televangelist too. You'll witness that I won't be promoting or going with that notion. :)

Whose fault is that the Bible can be easily misrepresented/misunderstood? Couldn't your God have written a better book, one that was impossible to misunderstand? Couldn't your God show up and instruct people on how the Bible should be correctly interpreted?

Strange you ask..

Atheists used to argue to some Christians like "Jesus never said this or that (written as saying literally) about gays... in the bible etc.." Has this method of textual scrutiny changed? Have you (plural) become lazy?

I don't give a fuck what you think some atheists might have said in other threads. That is completely irrelevant to what I am saying.

In regards to when I mentioned misrepresentation. I meant it as... the misrpresentation it seems to me, is a desperate attempt to add whats not there, willy nilly for that "extra effect."

My point was that the Bible is clearly ambiguous in its message, or there would not exist hundreds of different denominations of Christians who hold dramatically different views on what the Bible says. Why could an all-powerful god not create a document that would be impossible to misunderstand? Why does this god not make any effort to make its message clear to every human? The message is clearly important to this god, since it will send you to hell for eternity if you misunderstand the message and do shit this god doesn't want you to do. Can you please answer the question instead off wandering off into irrelevant tangents.
 

atrib

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
1,901
Location
Columbia, SC
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
How intriguing to see desperate biblical misrepresentation. Has anyone ever noticed that there's also hetrosexual 'fornication' on the list, also not accepted? Few more on the list for you... Drunkards, thieves and liars too.

Why should fornicators be placed in the same bucket as drunkards, thieves and liars? While drunkards, thieves and liars may be harming others or themselves through such activities, fornication between consenting adults can and does increase the well being of humans. Why should fornication be banned? What is wrong with two or more consenting adults having sex?

Missed this one...

Well you don't seem to know the context of two consenting people and the biblical concept relating to marriage and loyalty of two people. Besides its also placed there, because fornication can cause harm too e.g. a tool for blackmail, or persuasion such as sex has that power to get people to do all sorts of things from bribery, espionage, betrayals, suicides to even murder... Lusts of all kinds from fornication, I refer to, as described in the bible.

Lets assume a scenario where none of these things happen - where two consenting adults who are not married get together to have sex and then move on without resorting to any of the negative or criminal behavior that you cite. Which is how sex usually works between consenting adults in the real world. What is your objection to adults having consensual sex under such circumstances? I don't give a fuck what the Bible says - I want objective reasons that form the basis for you wanting to take away the right of consenting adults to have sex.

I also don't understand why you lump in thieves and liars with consenting adults who have sex outside marriage. The actions of thieves and liars are usually done without the consent of the parties who may be harmed by such actions, but that is not the case for consenting adults having sex outside marriage. Would you be offended if I were to lump you in with pedophile priests just because you are Christians?
 

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
9,423
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
Marriage in a n ancient tribe or group would be meant to reduce conflict and male competition.

Abraham essentially pimped out his wife for personal gain.

I believe the ancient Hebrews allowed multiple wives.

The Christian family historically was often based in spousal abuse. Wife and children as property of the male.

It is not just us 'immoral' fornicating atheists. Prominent Christians divorce and remarry, according to Jesus a crime.
 

ideologyhunter

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Messages
4,800
Location
Port Clinton, Ohio
Basic Beliefs
atheism/beatnikism
Religiosity - the willingness to believe in fantastical man-made stories and live a life dominated by these stories has little to with intelligence, in my experience. I think some of us are naturally predisposed to believe in gods, while some of us aren't. There may be/may have been some evolutionary benefit to our species for holding such beliefs, or it may be a side effect of some other characteristic, we don't know for sure.

For a while, back in the 80s/90s I think, there was media chatter about the "god gene" that explained how religious belief was in some way imparted to human nature. Some media preachers got excited about it, as in, "See? That's God drawing us close and giving us the chance to take part in his wondrous grace", etc., etc. But I have never felt drawn to any god, and even as a kid none of it seemed as real as a crayon or a licorice stick or the sidewalk. I do wish I'd been one of those kids who I hear about every so often who are endowed as young as 9 or 10 with a withering scorn for religious notions. Those kids are happening! They don't let the poor Sunday school teachers get away with anything. The kids who demand that you back up your stories -- I think they often go on to interesting lives, certainly independent lives.
But the strong believers -- I can't even imagine how one develops such a faith in invisible characters judging us from an invisible realm without thinking, "Hold it, am I a nutburger?" Today I was in a little grocery store in Oak Harbor, Ohio. This is a dinkburger with the same entertainment rating as, say, Tutwiler, Missisippi. If you go there, bring your word search magazine. Also shopping was a stout woman whose t-shirt read "Not Today, Satan!" I had two thoughts; first, if you wanted to find my exact opposite, she's got to be close. Second, should I go up behind her, and in my deepest voice go, "I am your dark father!"? I thought better of this -- she was so religious she was probably packing heat. She'd pull a Glock out of her purse, plug me, and recite the t-shirt over my dead body.
 

Swammerdami

Squadron Leader
Staff member
Joined
Dec 16, 2017
Messages
2,516
Location
Land of Smiles
Basic Beliefs
pseudo-deism
Humanists may consider themselves secular or religious. Many of us who grew up in a church may miss the spiritual support it provides. In college, I often went to the Unitarian Coffee House, an area for talks, games, and snacks on Friday nights.

When it was time to marry, we called on Reverend Gold from the UU church in Richmond who counseled us and performed the service in the park.

A church, any church, provides spiritual support for moral people seeking to be good and to do good. The camaraderie, the music, the message, all contribute to maintaining a “holy spirit”, that is to say, “feeling good about doing good and being good”.

And it helps to have that support in a world where the wicked often profit at the expense of the rest of us.

But a formal church is not a necessity. We also have the camaraderie of the authors we read, the discussions with like-minded people, and even discussions with people who disagree but help us clarify our faith.

And, yes, it is a matter of faith. All churches that claim to follow God, also declare God to be Good. And it is our faith in Good that sustains us.

I like this post.

I have never been a "believer", but I DO believe in the power of spirituality to promote well-being and good deeds. And it is often more likely to succeed at this than secular alternatives.

It may be difficult for a modern science-oriented person like myself to embrace spirituality and its virtues, but I've regarded this difficulty as a matter for regret, and not a matter for pride.

Many or most religious teachings or teachers are forces for GOOD. (White Christian evangelicalism in America is a grotesque exception, but why extrapolate to condemn sane ideas of religion in sane countries? Buddhism is key to my wife's life, happiness and well-being.)

Today, educated people know that the Earth orbits around a large fusioning ball, and that no matter how far you travel in any direction, you will not reach a "Heaven." But ancient people had no way of knowing that. When I read posts deriding the "silly ignorance" of ancient people, I form my own ideas of just who is silly, and who is ignorant about early attempts to understand nature and ignorant about human spirituality.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WAB

Gnostic Christian Bishop

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
763
Location
Canada
Basic Beliefs
Gnostic Christian & esoteric ecumenist
Yes yes.

We are all sinners, thank all the God like us.

We all share in singing with Christians of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.

You seem to forget that while you praise the good side of the god religions, those bastards continue to promote homophobia and misogyny and that a genocidal god is somehow a good God.

Gotta love um. Cant respect um; given the harm the right wing supernatural believing fools continue to do to us.

Regards
DL

I didn't say it was good. I said we do it because it feels nice, and that it is unavoidable for our species. I also said that it often leads us to compromise on what we should know is true. Which is bad.

We live under dualistic systems.

You should recognize the good in bad.

As to your last, an example as a proof oc concept would be required for agreement.

As is, you are way to vague.

Regards
DL
 

Gnostic Christian Bishop

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
763
Location
Canada
Basic Beliefs
Gnostic Christian & esoteric ecumenist
Instead of providing rules to slave-owners about how slaves should be treated, why not just say "Slavery is immoral. No human shall ever own another human as a slave"? I mean he did ban eating shellfish and wearing clothes made from mixed fabrics, but he couldn't tell us not to own slaves?

You and I would not argue much, but we might on slavery in the old days.

If you were to badmouth slavery back then, something no ancient wise man ever did, what would you offer the slave as an option, other than begging of starving to death?

I see slavery back then as the only available safety net.


That is why individuals freely, if we can even say freely, chose slavery over freedom to beg or die.


Regards
DL
 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,171
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Yes yes.

We are all sinners, thank all the God like us.

We all share in singing with Christians of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.

You seem to forget that while you praise the good side of the god religions, those bastards continue to promote homophobia and misogyny and that a genocidal god is somehow a good God.

Gotta love um. Cant respect um; given the harm the right wing supernatural believing fools continue to do to us.

Regards
DL

I didn't say it was good. I said we do it because it feels nice, and that it is unavoidable for our species. I also said that it often leads us to compromise on what we should know is true. Which is bad.

We live under dualistic systems.

You should recognize the good in bad.

As to your last, an example as a proof oc concept would be required for agreement.

As is, you are way to vague.

Regards
DL

Yeah, let's all be grateful for the gifts of rape and murder. There's a silver lining in everything
 

Gnostic Christian Bishop

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
763
Location
Canada
Basic Beliefs
Gnostic Christian & esoteric ecumenist
That shows how many gullible and downright stupid people we still produce.

The intelligent and moral know that the god religions are selling an evil theology with homophobia and misogyny as staples.

Religiosity - the willingness to believe in fantastical man-made stories and live a life dominated by these stories has little to with intelligence, in my experience. I think some of us are naturally predisposed to believe in gods, while some of us aren't. There may be/may have been some evolutionary benefit to our species for holding such beliefs, or it may be a side effect of some other characteristic, we don't know for sure.

We are programmed to seek, fear and wish to eliminate the unknown, thanks to our selfish genes. Not stupidly believe it is real.

We are the most insecure animal on the planet and that allows some fools and liars to posit a real supernatural.

Fools will always be with us as well as liars.

Nice that religions are dying thanks to modernization.

I cannot see that trend changing.

Regards
DL
 

Gnostic Christian Bishop

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
763
Location
Canada
Basic Beliefs
Gnostic Christian & esoteric ecumenist
you will not reach a "Heaven." But ancient people had no way of knowing that..


??

Gnostic Christians and other more naturalistic or wisdom based religions knew that.

Here is how it was expressed.

I could be a mind exercise for you.

Let me speak to the lie of Gnostic Christians hating matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religion’s originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.

The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------

The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL
 

Gnostic Christian Bishop

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
763
Location
Canada
Basic Beliefs
Gnostic Christian & esoteric ecumenist
We live under dualistic systems.

You should recognize the good in bad.

As to your last, an example as a proof oc concept would be required for agreement.

As is, you are way to vague.

Regards
DL

Yeah, let's all be grateful for the gifts of rape and murder. There's a silver lining in everything

Indeed.

Sure beats trying to take the Yin out of Yin and Yang.

The intelligent will not stupidly try to do what you are doing.

At least you were not so stupid as to deny our dualistic universe.

Regards
DL
 

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
9,423
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
Learn something new every day, a new -ism tp gnaw on.

More allusion to some kind of cosmic agency and hand waving. Wnen in doubt inject irrelevance to try and create an impression of authority.

Concepts are a cretion of the human mind, cosmic dualism appears to be a routine projection of human cncpts on relity to make the universe seem human, defining physical reality with human attributes.

Tre is no objective or absolute cosmic morality. Morality is a cultural consensus.

The mystical types claim to be an agent of a cosmic moral absolute. I am right and the universe is a reflection of my righteousness.

Reality on Earth is kill or be eaten. Is there a morality to a predator prey relationship, lion and antelope, or is it just evolution?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duali...raditional religions and scriptural religions.

Again, Gnostic appears to be despite his protestations is just a generic Christian with delusions of granduer..

Dualism in cosmology or dualistic cosmology is the moral or spiritual belief that two fundamental concepts exist, which often oppose each other. It is an umbrella term that covers a diversity of views from various religions, including both traditional religions and scriptural religions.

Moral dualism is the belief of the great complement of, or conflict between, the benevolent and the malevolent. It simply implies that there are two moral opposites at work, independent of any interpretation of what might be "moral" and independent of how these may be represented. Moral opposites might, for example, exist in a worldview that has one god, more than one god, or none. By contrast, duotheism, bitheism or ditheism implies (at least) two gods. While bitheism implies harmony, ditheism implies rivalry and opposition, such as between good and evil, or light and dark, or summer and winter. For example, a ditheistic system could be one in which one god is a creator and the other a destroyer. In theology, dualism can also refer to the relationship between the deity and creation or the deity and the universe (see theistic dualism). That form of dualism is a belief shared in certain traditions of Christianity and Hinduism.[1] Alternatively, in ontological dualism, the world is divided into two overarching categories. The opposition and combination of the universe's two basic principles of yin and yang is a large part of Chinese philosophy, and is an important feature of Taoism. It is also discussed in Confucianism.

Many myths and creation motifs with dualistic cosmologies have been described in ethnographic and anthropological literature. The motifs conceive the world as being created, organized, or influenced by two demiurges, culture heroes, or other mythological beings, who compete with each other or have a complementary function in creating, arranging or influencing the world. There is a huge diversity of such cosmologies. In some cases, such as among the Chukchi, the beings collaborate rather than compete, and they contribute to the creation in a coequal way. In many other instances the two beings are not of the same importance or power (sometimes, one of them is even characterized as gullible). Sometimes they can be contrasted as good versus evil.[2] They may be often believed to be twins or at least brothers.[3][4] Dualistic motifs in mythologies can be observed in all inhabited continents. Zolotaryov concludes that they cannot be explained by diffusion or borrowing but are rather of convergent origin. They are related to a dualistic organization of society (moieties); in some cultures, the social organization may have ceased to exist, but mythology preserves the memory in more and more disguised ways.[5]
 

T.G.G. Moogly

Formerly Joedad
Joined
Mar 19, 2001
Messages
8,780
Location
PA USA
Basic Beliefs
egalitarian
Marriage in a n ancient tribe or group would be meant to reduce conflict and male competition.

Abraham essentially pimped out his wife for personal gain.

I believe the ancient Hebrews allowed multiple wives.

The Christian family historically was often based in spousal abuse. Wife and children as property of the male.

It is not just us 'immoral' fornicating atheists. Prominent Christians divorce and remarry, according to Jesus a crime.

All those things preserve the tribe and represent the tribe's identity, including sacrificing your children. Supplicating to and accepting the protection of an abusive guardian to preserve tribe and identity isn't exactly surprising, and neither is defending those behaviors. The tribe is the god, the god is what the tribe says it is. The tribe and the god are indistinguishable in their behaviors because they are the same thing.
 

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
9,423
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
Marriage in a n ancient tribe or group would be meant to reduce conflict and male competition.

Abraham essentially pimped out his wife for personal gain.

I believe the ancient Hebrews allowed multiple wives.

The Christian family historically was often based in spousal abuse. Wife and children as property of the male.

It is not just us 'immoral' fornicating atheists. Prominent Christians divorce and remarry, according to Jesus a crime.

All those things preserve the tribe and represent the tribe's identity, including sacrificing your children. Supplicating to and accepting the protection of an abusive guardian to preserve tribe and identity isn't exactly surprising, and neither is defending those behaviors. The tribe is the god, the god is what the tribe says it is. The tribe and the god are indistinguishable in their behaviors because they are the same thing.

Looking at world as it is, is stability possible without some overarching mythology? Romans considered religion essential to civil order.

We are seeing a breakdown of order in the USA, we no longer have a common identity that Christianity was once part of.

You and I for whatever reasons think we can reason beyond superstition and religion. Is it possible for everyone to think like we do?

There is a Buddhist school of thought that says enlightenment is not possible for everyone. That leaves rituals and moral codes for the masses.
 

T.G.G. Moogly

Formerly Joedad
Joined
Mar 19, 2001
Messages
8,780
Location
PA USA
Basic Beliefs
egalitarian
Marriage in a n ancient tribe or group would be meant to reduce conflict and male competition.

Abraham essentially pimped out his wife for personal gain.

I believe the ancient Hebrews allowed multiple wives.

The Christian family historically was often based in spousal abuse. Wife and children as property of the male.

It is not just us 'immoral' fornicating atheists. Prominent Christians divorce and remarry, according to Jesus a crime.

All those things preserve the tribe and represent the tribe's identity, including sacrificing your children. Supplicating to and accepting the protection of an abusive guardian to preserve tribe and identity isn't exactly surprising, and neither is defending those behaviors. The tribe is the god, the god is what the tribe says it is. The tribe and the god are indistinguishable in their behaviors because they are the same thing.

Looking at world as it is, is stability possible without some overarching mythology? Romans considered religion essential to civil order.

We are seeing a breakdown of order in the USA, we no longer have a common identity that Christianity was once part of.

You and I for whatever reasons think we can reason beyond superstition and religion. Is it possible for everyone to think like we do?

There is a Buddhist school of thought that says enlightenment is not possible for everyone. That leaves rituals and moral codes for the masses.

Can a species be intelligent and also the source of its own destruction? I don't think so.
 

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
9,423
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
Looking at world as it is, is stability possible without some overarching mythology? Romans considered religion essential to civil order.

We are seeing a breakdown of order in the USA, we no longer have a common identity that Christianity was once part of.

You and I for whatever reasons think we can reason beyond superstition and religion. Is it possible for everyone to think like we do?

There is a Buddhist school of thought that says enlightenment is not possible for everyone. That leaves rituals and moral codes for the masses.

Can a species be intelligent and also the source of its own destruction? I don't think so.

We could have an endless debate on intelligence. One of te best scifi movies was Forbidden Planet.

An alien race develops wireless technology that allows anyone on the planet to bring anything into physical reality by thought. Unwittingly it unleashed d the collective negative aspects of the subconscious on each other leading to destruction.

Philosophically I'd say wisdom and intelligence are two different things. Intelligence is a capacity, wisdom is how to apply capacity.

It is unwise to consume resources like water to total consumption, like the Colorado River. It takes intelligence to figure out how to make things that consume water. Like creating Las Vegas in a desert.

In the USA conservatives have a religious faith that the free market economy left alone will solve all problems. Unwise in the face of reality.

IMO we have failed the Darwin Test.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
26,844
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
Looking at world as it is, is stability possible without some overarching mythology? Romans considered religion essential to civil order.

We are seeing a breakdown of order in the USA, we no longer have a common identity that Christianity was once part of.

You and I for whatever reasons think we can reason beyond superstition and religion. Is it possible for everyone to think like we do?

There is a Buddhist school of thought that says enlightenment is not possible for everyone. That leaves rituals and moral codes for the masses.

Can a species be intelligent and also the source of its own destruction? I don't think so.

We could have an endless debate on intelligence. One of te best scifi movies was Forbidden Planet.

An alien race develops wireless technology that allows anyone on the planet to bring anything into physical reality by thought. Unwittingly it unleashed d the collective negative aspects of the subconscious on each other leading to destruction.

Philosophically I'd say wisdom and intelligence are two different things. Intelligence is a capacity, wisdom is how to apply capacity.

It is unwise to consume resources like water to total consumption, like the Colorado River. It takes intelligence to figure out how to make things that consume water. Like creating Las Vegas in a desert.

In the USA conservatives have a religious faith that the free market economy left alone will solve all problems. Unwise in the face of reality.

IMO we have failed the Darwin Test.

That you are here to make that claim is proof that it is false.

If you are around to wonder how you are doing on the Darwin test, then you are passing it.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,132
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
We could have an endless debate on intelligence. One of te best scifi movies was Forbidden Planet.

An alien race develops wireless technology that allows anyone on the planet to bring anything into physical reality by thought. Unwittingly it unleashed d the collective negative aspects of the subconscious on each other leading to destruction.

Philosophically I'd say wisdom and intelligence are two different things. Intelligence is a capacity, wisdom is how to apply capacity.

It is unwise to consume resources like water to total consumption, like the Colorado River. It takes intelligence to figure out how to make things that consume water. Like creating Las Vegas in a desert.

In the USA conservatives have a religious faith that the free market economy left alone will solve all problems. Unwise in the face of reality.

IMO we have failed the Darwin Test.

That you are here to make that claim is proof that it is false.

If you are around to wonder how you are doing on the Darwin test, then you are passing it.

Are we all forgetting, somehow, here, that trees have done about as bad to the environment WRT lignin?

Species do stupid shit all the time. It's a craps shoot every time whether the error is fatal or not.
 

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
9,423
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
We could have an endless debate on intelligence. One of te best scifi movies was Forbidden Planet.

An alien race develops wireless technology that allows anyone on the planet to bring anything into physical reality by thought. Unwittingly it unleashed d the collective negative aspects of the subconscious on each other leading to destruction.

Philosophically I'd say wisdom and intelligence are two different things. Intelligence is a capacity, wisdom is how to apply capacity.

It is unwise to consume resources like water to total consumption, like the Colorado River. It takes intelligence to figure out how to make things that consume water. Like creating Las Vegas in a desert.

In the USA conservatives have a religious faith that the free market economy left alone will solve all problems. Unwise in the face of reality.

IMO we have failed the Darwin Test.

That you are here to make that claim is proof that it is false.

If you are around to wonder how you are doing on the Darwin test, then you are passing it.

Are we all forgetting, somehow, here, that trees have done about as bad to the environment WRT lignin?

Species do stupid shit all the time. It's a craps shoot every time whether the error is fatal or not.

What the fuck?...over. Trees? Sounds like Tucker Carlson or Sean Hannity.

Serendipity is part of evolution and the inverse. You may be the best adapted fish in the lake, but if the lake dries up you are history.

The difference is we are aggressively draining the lake we live in knowing the consequences.
 
Top Bottom