Why this black man attends KKK rallies - demonstrates how the left should rethink its engagement with the Alt-Right

[Underseer]

It just floors me that this argument is even being made at all.

With the sudden prevalence of cameras in smartphones, we now see that society and the police are far more racist than most of us thought, and that racism often reaches the level of lethal violence for no reason other than that someone was born to the wrong parents.

White supremacists look at all of this and think to themselves "You know what's wrong here? Not enough people are concerned about protecting my feelings! How dare people say that there is anything wrong with killing those dirty ni**ers without considering the impact such arguments might have on my feewings? It's almost as if they think I'm a bad person even though I'm white!"

White supremacists were the ones who said "fuck your feelings" during the last election, and now they are whining because not enough people are taking their feelings into account. It would be funny if it weren't so sickening.

Addendum[ent]mdash[/ent]My apologies for using the term "white supremacist" instead of the politically correct "alt-right free speech warrior." I hope that I can be forgiven for further hurting the feelings of racists. I know how fragile they are.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

For the record[ent]mdash[/ent]since unfortunately I have to come out and say this explicitly[ent]mdash[/ent]tolerance of intolerance is not tolerance, and love of hate is not love.

tolerance([ent]not[/ent]tolerance) = [ent]not[/ent]tolerance
love([ent]not[/ent]love) = [ent]not[/ent]love

Tolerance of what we already agree with isn't tolerance.

Awww Christ! A fortune cookie has gained sentience and is posting here now.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The bottom line of all of these recent "anti-politically correct" movements is simple. These assholes are tired of being made to be ashamed to be racists. They don't like the people of color that don't "know their place" and tell them so. They don't like the coastal elites that lecture them when they act like Philistines, they don't like the looks and comments they get from the public when they have a bigoted meltdown in Starbucks. They don't like the pile on they get from message boards and websites.

Maybe what they don't like even more is being told what they like and dont like, how they think, and who they are. Or maybe not, since that's also saying what they dont like.

Maybe they themselves can speak for themselves, and sit and and listen and explain their frustrations and reveal their misconceptions, and learn that others not like them are more like them than they thought.

We talking about the people that are so unbelievably uninformed or misinformed that the presentation of truthful information is almost a failed manner of explaining to them how wrong they are? Like the people who took over the BLM office in Oregon... and the people on the jury that set them free... or the people that thought the economy in 2016 was worse than in 2008?

 

[Lion IRC]

For the record[ent]mdash[/ent]since unfortunately I have to come out and say this explicitly[ent]mdash[/ent]tolerance of intolerance is not tolerance, and love of hate is not love.

tolerance([ent]not[/ent]tolerance) = [ent]not[/ent]tolerance
love([ent]not[/ent]love) = [ent]not[/ent]love

Tolerance of what we already agree with isn't tolerance.

Exactly.
And if you say you dislike [insert celebrity SJW cause du jour here] but that you will 'tolerate' it, that's not tolerant enough. One has to totally embrace those Kings New Clothes

 

[Patooka]

Maybe the left should start treating the alt right differently. They should treat them the way they deserve to be treated than with kid gloves. It's like that poem:

At first they attacked
The alt-right and I rejoiced
As they are all cunts.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Respond to hate and prejudice with hate and prejudice. Spread it further and wider and to more people. That will surely change people and fix things.....

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Respond to hate and prejudice with hate and prejudice. Spread it further and wider and to mmore peopl. That will surely change people and fix things.....

Take up The Liberal's burden
Send forth the best ye breed
Go send your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

What this man is doing isn't a matter of tolerance or intolerance. He's going out to meet people and PERSUADE them that they are wrong.

 

[ZiprHead]

What this man is doing isn't a matter of tolerance or intolerance. He's going out to meet people and PERSUADE them that they are wrong.

Why do they need to be persuaded? Didn't they go to kindergarten?

 

[Random Person]

What this man is doing isn't a matter of tolerance or intolerance. He's going out to meet people and PERSUADE them that they are wrong.

Why do they need to be persuaded? Didn't they go to kindergarten?

They must not have been paying attention.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

What this man is doing isn't a matter of tolerance or intolerance. He's going out to meet people and PERSUADE them that they are wrong.

Exactly. He is getting to know what they think (as opposed to presuming it) and how they can think it, and using that is how to change them. His approach of "I was amazed they could think that and act that way and needed to know why and how" is a great approach. Short of assassinating them (which ends prejudice in them but can create martyrs and spread it in others if yer not careful), that's how to defeat their ideology.

He is also exposing them to a counter-stereotype, which will further eat away at their presumptions and prejudice.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What this man is doing isn't a matter of tolerance or intolerance. He's going out to meet people and PERSUADE them that they are wrong.

Exactly. He is getting to know what they think (as opposed to presuming it) and how they can think it, and using that is how to change them. His approach of "I was amazed they could think that and act that way and needed to know why and how" is a great approach. Short of assassinating them (which ends prejudice in them but can create martyrs and spread it in others if yer not careful), that's how to defeat their ideology.

He is also exposing them to a counter-stereotype, which will further eat away at their presumptions and prejudice.

On the flip side, bigotry and prejudice are not effective tools of persuasion to change minds away from bigotry and prejudice.

I know, it is so the liberal's fault for being so bigoted about their intolerance of bigoted ideology.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I know, it is so the liberal's fault for being so bigoted about their intolerance of bigoted ideology.

It isn't intolerance of ideology that you are displaying here. And it isn't about fault.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I know, it is so the liberal's fault for being so bigoted about their intolerance of bigoted ideology.

It isn't intolerance of ideology that you are displaying here.

Correct, that'd be sarcasm.

And it isn't about fault.

Yes it is.

He's going out to meet people and PERSUADE them that they are wrong.

Respond to hate and prejudice with hate and prejudice. Spread it further and wider and to more people.

The people at his college didn't shun him and try to shout him down. They attempted to engage with him. He too eventually left the white supremacist movement.

This is in contrast to the far left's tactic of shouting down speakers that come to campus, interrupting their talks, and trying their hardest to get them banned.

Odd, how it isn't about fault, yet when discussing about why the racists are so racist, there seems to be an awful amount of comments about liberals for some reason.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

And it isn't about fault.

Yes it is.

No, it isn't.

He's going out to meet people and PERSUADE them that they are wrong.

Respond to hate and prejudice with hate and prejudice. Spread it further and wider and to more people.

The people at his college didn't shun him and try to shout him down. They attempted to engage with him. He too eventually left the white supremacist movement.

This is in contrast to the far left's tactic of shouting down speakers that come to campus, interrupting their talks, and trying their hardest to get them banned.

Odd, how it isn't about fault, yet when discussing about why the racists are so racist, there seems to be an awful amount of comments about liberals for some reason.

None of those above quotes are directed at liberals generally.

This is broader than right vs left or the assignment of blame. And regressive illiberals are not the only liberals.

 

[SimpleDon]

Very interesting story about how a black man attended KKK rallies and sat down with the Grand Wizard and eventually became friends with him:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORp3q1Oaezw[/youtube]

Daryl said he was willing to sit down, listen, and discuss. He agreed with certain things and disagreed with others strongly. The grand wizard eventually left the KKK, in part because of Daryl's influence and willingness to discuss these topics calmly and listen.

Reminds me of another story on Derek Black, the son of the founder of Stormfront:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.958e374ee78c

The people at his college didn't shun him and try to shout him down. They attempted to engage with him. He too eventually left the white supremacist movement.

This is in contrast to the far left's tactic of shouting down speakers that come to campus, interrupting their talks, and trying their hardest to get them banned.

As Daryl says in the Ted Talk above, when both sides are talking, neither side is being violent. When you stop talking, that's when violence has an opportunity to enter. No one changes their mind with violence. Hate derives from fear, and fear derives from ignorance. Violence only increases fear.

Perhaps the left should rethink their tactics on dealing with white supremacists and those holding controversial opinions in general.

What I find strange is that you and so many other people express amazement that people get along together after they get to know each other. That they are able to become friends in spite of differences that you feel should keep them apart probably tells us more about you than them.

That we get along together in spite of differences that you think should keep us apart could be because we are all much more alike than you think and are willing to admit. We all love our children and want them to be successful and happy. We all want to be secure in our lives, to not have to worry about feeding, clothing and sheltering our family. We all want to be healthy and for our families to be healthy. We are all proud of who we are, who our parents and their parents were. We are all proud of where and who we came from.

Of course, we all should be talking to each other. You are not going to throw rocks at a friend.

The left is obsessed with identity politics and they should abandon it. They embrace science but don't seem to fully embrace science's handmaiden, technology. This should change.

The right virtually invented identity politics and promotes class warfare and they should abandon these. They only embrace the parts of science and in a broader sense the other parts of reality that support their ideology. Anything that doesn't they lie about. This should change.

I am sorry that conservatives are shouted down at some universities and the shouters try to have them banned. This along with affirmative action in University admissions (that prevented one of our own from getting into Harvard Medical school) seem to be the primary evidence that the government is discriminating against white people and intentionally boosting everyone else who is not white, many above their ability to cope.

This begs the question, if we are going to straighten the liberal bend at the elite liberal arts colleges largely on the two coasts, what are we then to do about the conservative bend at the other colleges with a conservative bend?

These are by far the vast majority of colleges in the country. The business, engineering, agricultural, Midwestern, Southern, the near Western colleges?

 

[Mumbles]

Another problem - um, isn't the guy he's talking about still an active member of a terrorist group at the end of the story? The guy may not personally be involved in torturing people to death or running cars into crowds.

But he's still a supporter of that, either materially or in terms of morale.

I'm all for welcoming people who genuinely turn their lives around - and in many cases, I think we (in the US) go way overboard in terms of punishment even for many things which should be crimes. But this approach, again, is limited, and there's no reason not to also treat groups like the KKK as the has-been terrorist group that it is today...

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Another problem - um, isn't the guy he's talking about still an active member of a terrorist group at the end of the story?

Not sure where you are getting that from? Are you familiar with the man? This is my first time reading about him, but near as I can tell he at least left the KKK. What terrorist group do you think he may be a part of?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I think Mumbles' question is about KKK members, not the guy talking them out of being KKK members.

To answer the question, no. If this guy convinces a KKK member to quit the org, they are by definition no longer in the org.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I think Mumbles' question is about KKK members, not the guy talking them out of being KKK members.

Yes, I got that. And according to what I have read, Roger Kelly, the man this man was talking to and became friends with, and who used to be the head of the KKK, quit the KKK.

If this guy convinces a KKK member to quit the org, they are by definition no longer in the org.

Exactly, and he seems to have done so with at least a few of them.