Why we hate you & why we fight you.

[DrZoidberg]

Because freedom? Didn't really pan out that way. But that was the plan.

you killed iraqi for whose freedom?

Me?!? Wtf have I done? I swear I haven't even annoyed a single Iraqi. Let alone murdered one.

 

[Syed]

you killed iraqi for whose freedom?

Me?!? Wtf have I done? I swear I haven't even annoyed a single Iraqi. Let alone murdered one.

NO, american and european ?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Me?!? Wtf have I done? I swear I haven't even annoyed a single Iraqi. Let alone murdered one.

NO, american and european ?

"American" and "European" are labels for groups of people. You can't just assign blame across the board and expect anybody to take you seriously. I won't.

A couple of weeks ago my hairdresser was shut. He had gone on vacation. So I tried a new one for a change. It was a Palestinian guy. Turned out to be a disaster. He just wasn't listening to me. I'm annoyed at that one guy. I'm not annoyed at all Arabs for ruining my hair.

I'm Swedish. I am European. It was one of the countries who opposed the Iraq war and most certainly aren't to blame.

 

[skepticalbip]

According to Muslim thought, they did it because it was the will of Allah. Nothing happens except by the will of Allah.

allah also said evil doer will pay for their crime in this world and hereafter

That makes no sense... How could complying with Allah's will be evil?

Do Muslims believe that something that Allah wills can be evil? Or do they believe that everything that happens isn't the will of Allah, contrary to what they claim to believe?

 

[DBT]

allah also said evil doer will pay for their crime in this world and hereafter

Allah said this? Do you mean the authors of the Quran?

 

[atrib]

Can we please not talk about Palestine in this thread. This thread is about ISIS = something different

do you want to talk about why did white people killed iraqis?

White people did kill some Iraqis during the 2nd Gulf War. I personally believe that this war was unjustified and driven primarily by the political climate in the US following the 9-11 attacks. But the fact remains that overwhelmingly, it is Muslims that kill their fellow Muslims over differences in religious and political ideology, much more so than any western aggression. Why do you ignore this fact and blame only the west?

 

[atrib]

Ah, if only it were that simple. But no, even if all the Jews in Israel packed their bags and left for the moon, Islamist terrorism would not stop. Even if the whole world converted to Islam, Islamist terrorism would not stop. People would still be shot, stabbed and blown up for not following the "correct" form of Islam. It's an inevitable consequence of having people who claim a monopoly on Truth.

as long white people dont care about injustice have been done to palestisnions people by jews TERRORISM WILL NOT STOP

As long as Muslims keep getting indoctrinated into extremist Islamic ideologies from a young age, terrorism will not stop. If you are a Muslim who is concerned about the state of the Islamic world at large, you should be working to support the spread of education and progressive governments in the Islamic world, not pointing a finger at the west and blaming them for everything under the sun. Even today, in countries like Bangladesh, which have traditionally not been viewed as extremist Islamic states, Muslims who oppose the rise of Islamic fundamentalism and champion freedom of religious beliefs are being murdered, while the government stands by and does nothing. The Muslim world has a long way to go to become civilized again and rid itself of the curse of violent extremism, and spreading hate is not going to help.

 

[Playball40]

I agree with that. It may not have been about 'race'' but it was definitely about 'slavery'

It was about States' Rights. Specifically the Confederate states' rights to continue with slavery.

tom-A-to, tom-AH-to

 

[braces_for_impact]

Doesn't matter if it's true or false. And it certainly doesn't matter whether I think ir's true or false. It only matters that they think it's true.

do you believe isis following true islam?

Do YOU? A the risk of wasting my time with you yet again...ah well, it's mine to waste I suppose. Did you listen to the video Syed? Do you agree or disagree with what was said in the Dabiq article?

This is what it's all about. How many Muslims agree with Isis, that it will not stop until the whole of the world is under Islam like ISIS believes, or will enough Muslims stand up to ISIS and push for a different interpretation? It's Muslims that ISIS is hurting more than Westerners. Every single day.

 

[iolo]

do you want to talk about why did white people killed iraqis?

White people did kill some Iraqis during the 2nd Gulf War. I personally believe that this war was unjustified and driven primarily by the political climate in the US following the 9-11 attacks. But the fact remains that overwhelmingly, it is Muslims that kill their fellow Muslims over differences in religious and political ideology, much more so than any western aggression. Why do you ignore this fact and blame only the west?

Odd for what I take it is an American to talk about 'white' people's not killing one another, since killing one another seems to be the national hobby.

 

[Syed]

NO, american and european ?

"American" and "European" are labels for groups of people. You can't just assign blame across the board and expect anybody to take you seriously. I won't.

A couple of weeks ago my hairdresser was shut. He had gone on vacation. So I tried a new one for a change. It was a Palestinian guy. Turned out to be a disaster. He just wasn't listening to me. I'm annoyed at that one guy. I'm not annoyed at all Arabs for ruining my hair.

I'm Swedish. I am European. It was one of the countries who opposed the Iraq war and most certainly aren't to blame.

american and european bombed iraq killed iraqi they are not to be blame?

 

[DrZoidberg]

"American" and "European" are labels for groups of people. You can't just assign blame across the board and expect anybody to take you seriously. I won't.

A couple of weeks ago my hairdresser was shut. He had gone on vacation. So I tried a new one for a change. It was a Palestinian guy. Turned out to be a disaster. He just wasn't listening to me. I'm annoyed at that one guy. I'm not annoyed at all Arabs for ruining my hair.

I'm Swedish. I am European. It was one of the countries who opposed the Iraq war and most certainly aren't to blame.

american and european bombed iraq killed iraqi they are not to be blame?

Unless you admit to ruining my haircut, then no. Not all European countries supported the war in Iraq. Also, the Americans went to war on false premises. It's been said that Bush lied about WMD's. But Saddam went out of his way to make the rest of the world think he had WMD's, as well as being a notorious liar.

Saddam did invade Kuwait. As well as attacking Iran. Not to mention killing Kurds. The guy was a menace.

People who try to make the case that Gulf war 2 was unprovoked are making out Saddam to be a innocent little flower. Yes, it's unfortunate that so many Iraqis were killed in ridding the world of Saddam. And it's unfortunate that the Bush administration monumentally fucked up the occupation. But I'd argue the world is a better place without Saddam.

Also... the cause of the war in Syria was the Arab spring. Not the fall of Saddam. Yes, they are connected. But the blame for the shite in Syria should go to Assad.

No, Americans and Europeans aren't innocent. But giving them most of the blame is silly.

 

[braces_for_impact]

"American" and "European" are labels for groups of people. You can't just assign blame across the board and expect anybody to take you seriously. I won't.

A couple of weeks ago my hairdresser was shut. He had gone on vacation. So I tried a new one for a change. It was a Palestinian guy. Turned out to be a disaster. He just wasn't listening to me. I'm annoyed at that one guy. I'm not annoyed at all Arabs for ruining my hair.

I'm Swedish. I am European. It was one of the countries who opposed the Iraq war and most certainly aren't to blame.

american and european bombed iraq killed iraqi they are not to be blame?

In any case, this looks like a concern of YOURS not of ISIS.

From the Dabiq article:

What’s important to understand here is that although some might argue that your foreign policies are the extent of what drives our hatred, this particular reason for hating you is secondary, hence the reason we addressed it at the end of the above list. The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam.

What’s equally if not more important to understand is that we fight you, not simply to punish and deter you, but to bring you true freedom in this life and
salvation in the Hereafter, freedom from being enslaved to your whims and desires as well as those of your clergy and legislatures, and salvation by worshiping
your Creator alone and following His messenger. We fight you in order to bring you out from the darkness of disbelief and into the light of Islam, and to liberate
you from the constraints of living for the sake of the worldly life alone so that you may enjoy both the blessings
of the worldly life and the bliss of the Hereafter. The gist of the matter is that there is indeed a rhyme to our terrorism, warfare, ruthlessness, and brutality.
As much as some liberal journalist would like you to believe that we do what we do because we’re simply monsters with no logic behind our course of action,
the fact is that we continue to wage – and escalate – a calculated war that the West thought it had ended several years ago. We continue dragging you further
and further into a swamp you thought you’d already escaped only to realize that you’re stuck even deeper within its murky waters… And we do so while offering
you a way out on our terms. So you can continue to believe that those “despicable terrorists” hate you because of your lattes and your Timberlands, and
continue spending ridiculous amounts of money to try to prevail in an unwinnable war, or you can accept reality and recognize that we will never stop hating
you until you embrace Islam, and will never stop fighting you until you’re ready to leave the swamp of warfare and terrorism through the exits we provide, the
very exits put forth by our Lord for the People of the Scripture: Islam, jizyah, or – as a last means of fleeting respite – a temporary truce.

Look, some will say that this is propaganda, and yes, that's true. But, propaganda doesn't work unless it's adherents embrace it. It has to be representative.

ETA: I've provided a link to the pdf of the article in case anyone wants it. That being said I will warn you: there's some rough content in there, including a beheading. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19299322/islamic-state-magazine-dabiq-fifteen-breaking-the-cross.pdf

 

[DrZoidberg]

Look, some will say that this is propaganda, and yes, that's true. But, propaganda doesn't work unless it's adherents embrace it. It has to be representative.

Not necessarily. You just need critical mass. That's perhaps 20% of a population. All totalitarian/fascist regimes come to power in an extremely unstable period. There's typically some great internal threat, and the popular movement that takes power is just slightly less bonkers than that threat. That'll buy over the reasonable people. Who then aren't as impressed when life is peaceful and stable again.

So what happens when the regime grabs power? Step one is to heal the wound. They've gotten to power vilifying a large portion of the people they are now ruling. That won't work. Solution? Blame something external. It also works as an excuse when the regime inevitably fails. Since all these are populist movements. And all populism rests on having simple solutions for complex problems. Which is a guaranteed recipe for failure.

Same pattern in all of these regimes. You can present the above sequence in a number of ways... but this is essentially it. The above doesn't mean that a majority of the ISIS-population buys into this. It's a totalitarian regime. All it means is that the regime wants it's population to believe it. Which is something completely different... and also... doesn't mean shit.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Yeah, even though Lincoln didn't fight the war at first with the goal to end slavery, the South did start the war to keep slavery.

And that's the relevance to the thread. When you want to find out why ISIS is doing things, you can

A) Ask ISIS.
B) Ask someone else.

A) is generally the better option. While it's true that both sides may have political reasons to hide their real rationales, ISIS is out there trying to actively recruit people. In order to do so, they are saying "This is who we are. Come join up if you like what we're saying". To suggest that what they're saying isn't intrinsically tied to their primary motivations is like saying that PETA is really about raising the minimum wage and all that animal rights stuff is just a cover.

Just have to make sure ISIS doesn't kill you somehow.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Just have to make sure ISIS doesn't kill you somehow.

An effective way to do that is to read something that ISIS members have posted online or in videos explaining why they do what they do.

Of course, that does raise the risk of your getting flagged by the NSA for being a terrorist sympathizer and have government agents show up at your house and shoot you in self-defence in order to defend freedom, so you'll still probably die.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Look, some will say that this is propaganda, and yes, that's true. But, propaganda doesn't work unless it's adherents embrace it. It has to be representative.

Not necessarily. You just need critical mass. That's perhaps 20% of a population. All totalitarian/fascist regimes come to power in an extremely unstable period. There's typically some great internal threat, and the popular movement that takes power is just slightly less bonkers than that threat. That'll buy over the reasonable people. Who then aren't as impressed when life is peaceful and stable again.

So what happens when the regime grabs power? Step one is to heal the wound. They've gotten to power vilifying a large portion of the people they are now ruling. That won't work. Solution? Blame something external. It also works as an excuse when the regime inevitably fails. Since all these are populist movements. And all populism rests on having simple solutions for complex problems. Which is a guaranteed recipe for failure.

Same pattern in all of these regimes. You can present the above sequence in a number of ways... but this is essentially it. The above doesn't mean that a majority of the ISIS-population buys into this. It's a totalitarian regime. All it means is that the regime wants it's population to believe it. Which is something completely different... and also... doesn't mean shit.

I agree some with what you write, and some I do not. I think it really does mean shit. Surely there are some, maybe even many that don't agree with everything ISIS puts out in Dabiq. After all, I think there's a reason we see Muslims celebrating when a city is liberated from ISIS right? The ones driving trucks over crowds of celebrating people, blowing up suicide vests in crowded markets, flying aircraft into skyscrapers, trying to shoot people on trains: I think they believe it. Then there's the issue of the greater Muslim population. I'm sure you've seen the various polls that come out of the Middle East, London, France, Germany. There are large swaths of people that agree with things like apostates should be put to death or that Sharia law should replace secular law. Many of those may not use force themselves, but agree when someone else does. These are not minor numbers like 5% or even 10%, but numbers running into the 40's. That's scary.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Not necessarily. You just need critical mass. That's perhaps 20% of a population. All totalitarian/fascist regimes come to power in an extremely unstable period. There's typically some great internal threat, and the popular movement that takes power is just slightly less bonkers than that threat. That'll buy over the reasonable people. Who then aren't as impressed when life is peaceful and stable again.

So what happens when the regime grabs power? Step one is to heal the wound. They've gotten to power vilifying a large portion of the people they are now ruling. That won't work. Solution? Blame something external. It also works as an excuse when the regime inevitably fails. Since all these are populist movements. And all populism rests on having simple solutions for complex problems. Which is a guaranteed recipe for failure.

Same pattern in all of these regimes. You can present the above sequence in a number of ways... but this is essentially it. The above doesn't mean that a majority of the ISIS-population buys into this. It's a totalitarian regime. All it means is that the regime wants it's population to believe it. Which is something completely different... and also... doesn't mean shit.

I agree some with what you write, and some I do not. I think it really does mean shit. Surely there are some, maybe even many that don't agree with everything ISIS puts out in Dabiq. After all, I think there's a reason we see Muslims celebrating when a city is liberated from ISIS right? The ones driving trucks over crowds of celebrating people, blowing up suicide vests in crowded markets, flying aircraft into skyscrapers, trying to shoot people on trains: I think they believe it. Then there's the issue of the greater Muslim population. I'm sure you've seen the various polls that come out of the Middle East, London, France, Germany. There are large swaths of people that agree with things like apostates should be put to death or that Sharia law should replace secular law. Many of those may not use force themselves, but agree when someone else does. These are not minor numbers like 5% or even 10%, but numbers running into the 40's. That's scary.

That's people. IS is just one example - as has been stated previously.