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Why we need vitamins

lpetrich

lpetrich

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Why we need vitamins:

Cat and Woman on Vitamins.jpg

We need a lot more vitamins than vitamin C, and we also need "essential" amino acids and "essential" fatty acids, those that our bodies cannot make.

The EAA's are arginine, histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and valine.

The EFA's are omega-3 and omega-6 ones.

I then checked across the animal kingdom for what I could find about nutritional needs, though I could find the most data for domestic and farmed and laboratory ones. Animals like rhesus monkeys, mice, rats, rabbits, dogs, cats, pigs, cows, horses, chickens, ...

Mice and rats need these vitamins: A, B1, B2, B3, B5, B6, B7, B9, B12, D, K, and E, though they can make their own vitamin C - Importance of Vitamins in Human and Murine Diets | Taconic Biosciences

Research into chickens' nutritional needs: Effect of deficiencies of single essential amino acids on nitrogen and energy utilisation in chicks - PubMed

I found an article on feeding farmed fish and shrimp: THE NUTRITION AND FEEDING OF FARMED FISH AND SHRIMP - A TRAINING MANUAL 1. THE ESSENTIAL NUTRIENTS

I also found stuff on the laboratory fruit fly Drosophila melanogaster - the same EAA's, the same EFA's, and pretty much the same vitamins.


So needing EAA's, EFA's, and B vitamins, at least, is common over the animal kingdom.


But needing other vitamins is much more patchy. Needing vitamin C:
  • Teleost fish (most present-day bony fish), though not other fish - 310 Mya
  • Bats - 52 Mya
  • Guinea pig, capybara
  • Simians (Old World and New World monkeys, apes, and our species) - 42 Mya
  • Some passeriform birds (typical sort of small bird)
Needing taurine: Felidae, including domestic cats - 11 million years ago


Heterotrophs outside of the animal kingdom, like fungi, sometimes need much less. The lab fungus Neurospora crassa needs only the B vitamin biotin, and the lab bacterium Escherichia coli does not need any. E. coli can use a variety of molecules as its sole carbon source: Gene Dispensability in Escherichia coli Grown in Thirty Different Carbon Environments | mBio and New insights into Escherichia coli metabolism: carbon scavenging, acetate metabolism and carbon recycling responses during growth on glycerol | Microbial Cell Factories | Full Text
 
There's more to it. Reforming molecules in the body is a lot of work. So we try to avoid it if we can. Nutrients that have been readily available in our diet through evolution, we will lose the ability to make ourselves.

It's simply about conserving energy.

There's theories that this is how we beat the Neanderthals. We were more energy efficient. In lean times they starved, while we didn't.
 
The consensus from my doctors is that while some supplements can have an effect, generaly they are insignigicant.

I take a generic Centrum supplement once in a while wen I am dieting and reducing calories.

If I do not get fresh vegetables on a regular basis I start to run down a bit.

I cycle through the produce department to get a variety. My doctor called that edging. Again from several doctors I got that if you have a regular diet you probably do not need vitamin supplants.

A recent study showed no effect on healing by vitamin C megadose as is claimed.

Your doctor can tel you if you are deficient in something.

Same with the omega stuff, Studies show no improvement on health with high doses.

There are known deficiencies that cause problems. I believe one big one was Beri Beri and B deficiencies.

When I was in ICU and having a number of blood draws during the day I had to take iron supplants because I went anemic.

I came back from near death and atrophied in bed. I recovered with exercise and a sensible diet.

A little beef, mostly chicken and fish. Eggs. Fresh vegetables. Rice, beans. and whole potatoes without milk or butter. No junk food.

My energy and alertness came back.

I have listened to a number of nutrition shows by 'experts', a lot of it on PBS. There are extreme contradictions all claiming scientific proof.

What is proven is exercise, keeping weight down, reasonable diet, min junk food and alcohol, no tabaco, and good rest at night keeps you healthy through old age. If you are not doing that ten no amount of supplants are going to help you.

Not just me, I have gotten to know a number of people who got healthy from serious conditions the 'old fashioned' way.

Ask your doctor for a comprehensive blood test and see where you are at.

Also high dose of vitamins can have negative effects. When in rehab my potassium spiked due to a drug combo and I ende up in the emergency room for a purge. High potassium can affect your heart.

If you read the fine print on vitamin bottles there can be warnings.
 
In this age of sequenced genomes, we can look for which metabolic pathways are coded in various organisms' genomes.

KEGG PATHWAY: Biosynthesis of amino acids - Drosophila melanogaster (fruit fly)
Green means present, black means absent.

I didn't have the patience to check *every* species, and it would be easier if I had a big spreadsheet full of what species have what genes, so I checked only some presumably representative species.

The entire animal kingdom needs the same 10 essential amino acids, including sponges (Amphimedon queenslandica) and placozoans (Trichoplax adhaerens).

But some fungi (Neurospora crassa and brewer's yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae) and some bacteria (Escherichia coli and Salmonella enterica and Pseudomonas aeruginosa)can make all of their protein-forming amino acids, including the "essential" ones.


The KEGG site has similar overview pages for biosynthesis of fatty acids and cofactors (vitamins):
KEGG PATHWAY: Biosynthesis of amino acids - Synechococcus elongatus PCC6301
KEGG PATHWAY: Fatty acid metabolism - Synechococcus elongatus PCC6301
KEGG PATHWAY: Biosynthesis of cofactors - Synechococcus elongatus PCC6301
I used a cyanobacterium (blue-green alga) as my reference here. There are a couple of gaps in some of the pathways, I must note, but that may be due to incomplete sequencing, incomplete annotation, or unrecognized homologous genes.

The latter page has thiamine (B1), riboflavin (B2), niacin (nicotinate, B3), pantothenate (B5), biotin (B7), folate (B9), vitamin B12, and also heme (iron-containing porphyrin).
 
lpetrich said:
Why we need vitamins:

The EFA's are omega-3 and omega-6 ones.
Click to expand...

Yup, the bane of my life at this point. I've got truly insane food sensitivities. All the essential amino acids, vitamins and minerals can be bought in pure forms. The EFAs can't.
 
steve_bank said:
If you read the fine print on vitamin bottles there can be warnings.
Click to expand...

Minerals, also. I have stuff around here that is toxic enough that it would be classed as poison--yet it's intended for human consumption. There's one I wouldn't even be willing to deal with the pure form because of the danger.
 
A local radio station plays old radio shows including the commercials. Promoting vitamins for vitality goes back to the first media mass marketing.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
steve_bank said:
If you read the fine print on vitamin bottles there can be warnings.
Click to expand...

Minerals, also. I have stuff around here that is toxic enough that it would be classed as poison--yet it's intended for human consumption. There's one I wouldn't even be willing to deal with the pure form because of the danger.
Click to expand...

"Toxic" is an attribute of doses, not of substances.

To describe a substance as "toxic" is to make a category error. This is a common error, particularly when dealing with substances whose toxic dose is very small. But it's an error nonetheless.
 
bleubird said:
The only thing I take is vitamin D.Most Alaskans lack it.
Click to expand...

We have the opposite problem here; Vitamin D deficiency is very rare, but Folate deficiency is common (UV exposure breaks down Folate, which can be a significant risk, particularly for spinal defects in utero, and pregnant women are strongly recommended to take Folate supplements in sunny climates).
 
bilby said:
bleubird said:
The only thing I take is vitamin D.Most Alaskans lack it.
Click to expand...

We have the opposite problem here; Vitamin D deficiency is very rare, but Folate deficiency is common (UV exposure breaks down Folate, which can be a significant risk, particularly for spinal defects in utero, and pregnant women are strongly recommended to take Folate supplements in sunny climates).
Click to expand...

Just pepper in a few minutes of non sunscreened skin exposure to mid day sun a 2-3 days a week. Sun above 50 degrees from the horizon.
 
repoman said:
bilby said:
bleubird said:
The only thing I take is vitamin D.Most Alaskans lack it.
Click to expand...

We have the opposite problem here; Vitamin D deficiency is very rare, but Folate deficiency is common (UV exposure breaks down Folate, which can be a significant risk, particularly for spinal defects in utero, and pregnant women are strongly recommended to take Folate supplements in sunny climates).
Click to expand...

Just pepper in a few minutes of non sunscreened skin exposure to mid day sun a 2-3 days a week. Sun above 50 degrees from the horizon.
Click to expand...

Seriously? This is Queensland. The midday sun will flay the skin off your bones given half a chance. It would take true dedication, or an incredibly reclusive lifestyle, to achieve Vitamin D deficiency here. Getting skin cancer, on the other hand, is extraordinarily easy.

The official advice here is to avoid unprotected sun exposure as far as possible. This advice recognises that incidental exposure for Queenslanders is almost invariably more than adequate to maintain adequate Vitamin D levels all year round.

“Queensland has a melanoma incidence rate of 71 cases per 100,000 people (for the years 2009-2013), vastly exceeding rates in all other jurisdictions nationally and internationally,” Prof Dunn said
Click to expand...

https://cancerqld.org.au/news/queensland-still-the-skin-cancer-capital-of-the-world/
 
repoman said:
bilby said:
bleubird said:
The only thing I take is vitamin D.Most Alaskans lack it.
Click to expand...

We have the opposite problem here; Vitamin D deficiency is very rare, but Folate deficiency is common (UV exposure breaks down Folate, which can be a significant risk, particularly for spinal defects in utero, and pregnant women are strongly recommended to take Folate supplements in sunny climates).
Click to expand...

Just pepper in a few minutes of non sunscreened skin exposure to mid day sun a 2-3 days a week. Sun above 50 degrees from the horizon.
Click to expand...

That is hard to do in the winter here. Especially if you are older like me.
 
I think that being at lower latitudes that paying attention to the sun for focused skin exposure I would have a hammock of sorts that to get your body get the sun head on and not at an angle.

that is what I do for about 10 minutes front and back each.

Also always put sunscreen on my face, wear sunglasses and balaclava and shirt over my head. sometimes cover my arms and or put put sunscreen on my shoulders and upper back. I already look old enough.

Again, only when the sun is above 50 degrees else you get almost no 295-310 nm light. This is a soft cutoff point but a good one for the layman.

I am looking at the NOAA website for Anchorage, Alaska on June 21. Solar noon is at 2 pm DST and the solar angle is 52.2 degrees. At 12:45 pm the sun reaches 50 degrees and again at 3:15 pm. So 2.5 hours of "enough" UVB for vitamin D production.
 
I am curious about the long term trial and error diets that extreme northern people from Iceland, all the way around the earth to the Inuits ate to have enough vitamin d and other vitamins that are hard to get at such high latitudes.

Over thousands of years the foods and preparation methods must have built up. Methods that make more vitamins or help make them more adsorbable. This traditional food must be very useful still.

Fermentation is a huge one for sure. As an example, Japanese natto is massively packed with a form of vitamin K2 but that is not that northern.
 
repoman said:
I am curious about the long term trial and error diets that extreme northern people from Iceland, all the way around the earth to the Inuits ate to have enough vitamin d and other vitamins that are hard to get at such high latitudes.

Over thousands of years the foods and preparation methods must have built up. Methods that make more vitamins or help make them more adsorbable. This traditional food must be very useful still.

Fermentation is a huge one for sure. As an example, Japanese natto is massively packed with a form of vitamin K2 but that is not that northern.
Click to expand...

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/9-foods-high-in-vitamin-d#3.-Cod-liver-oil

Spruce tips are a source of vitamin C. I have heard that Capt. Cook learned this from the natives.Some here brew beer with it.
 
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