Will Impeachment Issue Divide the Democrats?

[Copernicus]

Donald Trump should be impeached. There are obvious grounds for it--obstruction of justice, corruption, and conspiring with a foreign government. I feel passionately about that, and I fantasize that a "blue wave" election in November will lead to a quick impeachment trial. However, it is delusional to think that that will happen. The majority of the public are not yet in a mood to impeach the President, and that "blue wave" may crest well before November and the coming tide of pro-Republican propaganda in advance of the elections. And Russia can be counted on to continue to work to keep the US government weak, which means keeping Congress Republican.

Republicans are now using impeachment as a fund-raising tool, but they also see it as a wedge issue to drive moderates away from Democratic Party candidates. Will it work?

See the NYT article Republicans Seize on Impeachment for Edge in 2018 Midterms.

As Republican leaders scramble to stave off a Democratic wave or at least mitigate their party’s losses in November, a strategy is emerging on the right for how to energize conservatives and drive a wedge between the anti-Trump left and moderate voters: warn that Democrats will immediately move to impeach President Trump if they capture the House.

What began last year as blaring political hyperbole on the right — the stuff of bold-lettered direct mail fund-raising pitches from little-known groups warning of a looming American “coup” — is now steadily drifting into the main currents of the 2018 message for Republicans.

The appeals have become a surefire way for candidates to raise small contributions from grass-roots conservatives who are devoted to Mr. Trump, veteran Republican fund-raisers say. But party strategists also believe that floating the possibility of impeachment can also act as a sort of scared-straight motivational tool for turnout. Last week, Senator Ted Cruz of Texas used his re-election kickoff rally to introduce a video featuring a faux news anchor reading would-be headlines were conservatives not to vote in November.

“Senate Majority Leader Schumer announced the impeachment trial of President Trump,” one of the anchors says...

 

[Harry Bosch]

Donald Trump should be impeached. There are obvious grounds for it--obstruction of justice, corruption, and conspiring with a foreign government. I feel passionately about that, and I fantasize that a "blue wave" election in November will lead to a quick impeachment trial. However, it is delusional to think that that will happen. The majority of the public are not yet in a mood to impeach the President, and that "blue wave" may crest well before November and the coming tide of pro-Republican propaganda in advance of the elections. And Russia can be counted on to continue to work to keep the US government weak, which means keeping Congress Republican.

Republicans are now using impeachment as a fund-raising tool, but they also see it as a wedge issue to drive moderates away from Democratic Party candidates. Will it work?

See the NYT article Republicans Seize on Impeachment for Edge in 2018 Midterms.

As Republican leaders scramble to stave off a Democratic wave or at least mitigate their party’s losses in November, a strategy is emerging on the right for how to energize conservatives and drive a wedge between the anti-Trump left and moderate voters: warn that Democrats will immediately move to impeach President Trump if they capture the House.

What began last year as blaring political hyperbole on the right — the stuff of bold-lettered direct mail fund-raising pitches from little-known groups warning of a looming American “coup” — is now steadily drifting into the main currents of the 2018 message for Republicans.

The appeals have become a surefire way for candidates to raise small contributions from grass-roots conservatives who are devoted to Mr. Trump, veteran Republican fund-raisers say. But party strategists also believe that floating the possibility of impeachment can also act as a sort of scared-straight motivational tool for turnout. Last week, Senator Ted Cruz of Texas used his re-election kickoff rally to introduce a video featuring a faux news anchor reading would-be headlines were conservatives not to vote in November.

“Senate Majority Leader Schumer announced the impeachment trial of President Trump,” one of the anchors says...

I think that impeachment would be a big mistake. I don't think that he personally conspired with the Russians. I may be wrong. And we need to wait until Mueller investigation ends. I think that if a population elects a president, the bar for impeachment should be very very high. Obviously, I was very much against impeachment against Bill Clinton (Trump's issues are far far worse that anything that Bill ever did).

I'm sorry, but voting (or not voting) has consequences. If people are unhappy with their current government (and I don't blame them) they need to get off their ass and push for change. They need to vote and make their vote count. People can also help organize, donate money, show up at rallies, and etc. Bottom line for me, I feel that some people (a minority) are pushing for impeachment because they are embarrassed that they didn't make their vote count last time, and they want revenge against the system.

 

[Copernicus]

I think that impeachment would be a big mistake. I don't think that he personally conspired with the Russians. I may be wrong. And we need to wait until Mueller investigation ends. I think that if a population elects a president, the bar for impeachment should be very very high. Obviously, I was very much against impeachment against Bill Clinton (Trump's issues are far far worse that anything that Bill ever did).

I'm sorry, but voting (or not voting) has consequences. If people are unhappy with their current government (and I don't blame them) they need to get off their ass and push for change. They need to vote and make their vote count. People can also help organize, donate money, show up at rallies, and etc. Bottom line for me, I feel that some people (a minority) are pushing for impeachment because they are embarrassed that they didn't make their vote count last time, and they want revenge against the system.

But do you think that this Republican strategy will work against the Democrats? That was the basic question.

As for your opinion on whether Trump ought to be impeached and the motives of people seeking to impeach him, you only talked about whether he conspired with Russians on a personal level. There seems to be some very good circumstantial evidence that he did, but it is within the realm of possibility that others engaged in the conspiracy without his knowledge. That is why it was the last in my list of reasons to impeach him. But do you believe he is guilty of trying to obstruct the criminal investigation of Russian meddling in the presidential election? After all, he did publicly admit that he was thinking of the Russia investigation when he fired Comey. Obstruction of justice was one of the charges in the impeachment trial of President Nixon.

 

[whollygoats]

I think impeachment is most definitely in order. The only reason it has not happened is that the party of the president happens to control the votes in the House of Representatives adequately to suppress the proceedings to impeach. The question is, once that constraint is removed, will the House act?

I don't see that it particularly 'divides' the Democrats, as I'm unaware of Democrats unwilling to even discuss the prospect or demand. I do see it as a means of once again whipping up the GOP base...A Reptilian GOTV, if you will. I think what happens in the 'markets' between now and ballot-casting time will have a bit of influence, as well.

 

[southernhybrid]

I read that same NYT piece early this morning. To be honest, I have no idea if it will work for the Republicans. There are a lot of people who obviously will vote for their party regardless of how awful their candidates are. I don't think the Democrats should be talking about impeachment. Unless they take back Congress, they will remain powerless. The Dem candidates would be better to talk about policy issues but, they also need to be more united. As long as the Democrats have a far left component and a more moderate component, both sides need to agree to compromise. If Democrats want to regain power, they need to be rational about what can be accomplished, instead of promising things that can't be done.

There are a lot of people who aren't satisfied with what Trump is doing, so maybe the more moderate, primarily working class white component of Dems that voted for Trump will be persuaded to vote for Dems at the state level. The Democratic party needs to give them something hopeful if they want those voters back.

 

[Derec]

Congratulations. You have successfully impeached President Trump, and even more of an accomplishment, you have managed to remove him from office by convincing 2/3 of the Senate to find him guilty.
Your prize:
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wait for it
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Hardly seems worth it, does it?

 

[Opoponax]

The GOP will say or do anything and it will have zero consequences with respect to their voters. So that's a nonfactor. That is, those people will vote for the (R) on the ballot and that's that. You can't win those people over.

The Democrats need to grow a set of balls and start talking impeachment now. The House is going to flip Democrat and they'll gain seats in the Senate. It's impossible for them to gain the supermajority needed to convict, but so what?

Start making the case that every single Republican supports Trump 100% and keep screaming about Trump. Associate every goddamn Republican with every single one of Trump's actions. Fairness doesn't matter.

Republicans are the thugs that show up with a baseball bat to brunch ad beat the shit out of the Democrats; then the Democrats make the Republicans pinky-swear not to do it again. Next time brunch rolls around, the Dems once again find themselves waking up in the ER with their skulls stitched back together.

The GOP/Trump hasn't soft-stepped jackshit in decades. It's time for the Democrats to bring their own baseball bat.

 

[Copernicus]

I have to agree with Derec's point that Pence would be an unhappy outcome of a successful impeachment. However, wacky as Pence is, I consider him to be the lesser of two evils. He appears saner and more in control of his behavior, making him easier for foreign countries and economic markets to predict. He will almost certainly try to turn the dial up on the toxic influence of radical Christian evangelicals on government, but he has already been exerting such an influence. (See the thread on the White House Bible study group.) He will be more effective, in some ways, in bringing about radical changes to our government, but that will be happening over the next three years anyway. His saving grace, in my eyes, is that he is less charismatic than Trump and just as likely to guarantee an even larger "blue wave" reaction to Republican control in 2020. (However, I suspect that the Supreme Court will be a fairly conservative Republican-controlled branch of government for the remainder of my life.)

I have mixed feelings about this Republican strategy to use the impeachment controversy as a wedge issue. I agree with southernhybrid that it will be an effective method of beating back the 2018 "blue wave" trend, because most Democrats are out of step with the political center of gravity in the country. That is, they think that Americans are more liberal in their attitudes than they really are. OTOH, I also agree with Opo's feelings. Democrats cannot win, if they fail to motivate the base, and impeachment is very much on the minds of core Democrats. It certainly is on mine, as I expressed in the OP.

The dilemma I see here is that Democrats cannot win without a broad coalition that includes both the more radical base and moderate Democrats and independents. They must make themselves more attractive to Republicans who are unhappy with Trump. Talk of impeachment at this point in time will tend to make less liberal voters more hesitant to support Democratic candidates for office. I expect the Russian troll farms to be pushing this meme out into social media.

 

[untermensche]

You can't fix a broken electoral system with impeachment.

The system is so fucked up we end up with a monstrosity unfit for office.

What needs fixing is the system.

But the people that have the power to fix it are the people best at the corrupt dysfunctional current system.

They have no incentive to fix it.

 

[Malintent]

Congratulations. You have successfully impeached President Trump, and even more of an accomplishment, you have managed to remove him from office by convincing 2/3 of the Senate to find him guilty.
Your prize:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
wait for it
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.
.
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.
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Hardly seems worth it, does it?

Not at all worried about a lame duck president.... no significant number of congressmen will act on the wishes of an unelected president.

 

[whollygoats]

Not at all worried about a lame duck president.... no significant number of congressmen will act on the wishes of an unelected president.

"Unelected"? I'm sorry, but he was elected to the position. Specifically, he was elected to serve as Vice President and to take on the duties and responsibilities of President, should that person somehow be rendered incapable of fulfilling those duties and responsibilities.

My attitude is that Pence is an integral element of the problem. He is complicit and should come down with Spanky. Why can we not indict and remove both?

And, a 'lame duck', is one who still holds the office after another has been elected to replace them at that position, not an 'unelected' president.

 

[Elixir]

I have said since this time in 2016 that Trump was God's gift to Democrats. I didn't expect him to win office, but despite that I still think he will prove to be the best thing that has happened for Democrats in recent memory.
There has never been a president so worthy of impeachment. His entire administration is the most corrupt and incompetent of my lifetime.
But I don't think impeachment should be an issue - let alone a dividing issue - for Democrats. They will be best served to let Trump serve as an albatross around the neck of the GOP establishment that he hijacked, and cash in those chips in 2020. If they can wrest away one or more houses of Congress in the meanswhile, they can minimize the further damage that the Cheato cabal can wreak. That's the best that they can hope for at this point. Don't give the GOP the opportunity for a "re-set" - make them stew and fester for the last couple of years of this despotic regime, and hopefully come up with something better than than their last offering when 2020 rolls around.

 

[Malintent]

Not at all worried about a lame duck president.... no significant number of congressmen will act on the wishes of an unelected president.

"Unelected"? I'm sorry, but he was elected to the position. Specifically, he was elected to serve as Vice President and to take on the duties and responsibilities of President, should that person somehow be rendered incapable of fulfilling those duties and responsibilities.

My attitude is that Pence is an integral element of the problem. He is complicit and should come down with Spanky. Why can we not indict and remove both?

And, a 'lame duck', is one who still holds the office after another has been elected to replace them at that position, not an 'unelected' president.

No argument from me that he technically was elected to serve as a backup president.... Succession exists in every single government role. Pence would (will) be a lame duck because of the nature by which the administration flips over. I wouldn't completely discount the notion that a strongly democratic house would not only impeach Trump, but follow with a very firm warning to Pence to basically sit down, shut up, and run for the next presidential election if he wants... and until then, he is always one word away from impeachment himself. I am positive that whatever Trump may be proven guilty of can be pinned on Pence as well as a coconspirator. When did Pence know such and such....

 

[Elixir]

Not at all worried about a lame duck president.... no significant number of congressmen will act on the wishes of an unelected president.

"Unelected"? I'm sorry, but he was elected to the position. Specifically, he was elected to serve as Vice President and to take on the duties and responsibilities of President, should that person somehow be rendered incapable of fulfilling those duties and responsibilities.

My attitude is that Pence is an integral element of the problem. He is complicit and should come down with Spanky. Why can we not indict and remove both?

And, a 'lame duck', is one who still holds the office after another has been elected to replace them at that position, not an 'unelected' president.

No argument from me that he technically was elected to serve as a backup president.... Succession exists in every single government role. Pence would (will) be a lame duck because of the nature by which the administration flips over. I wouldn't completely discount the notion that a strongly democratic house would not only impeach Trump, but follow with a very firm warning to Pence to basically sit down, shut up, and run for the next presidential election if he wants... and until then, he is always one word away from impeachment himself. I am positive that whatever Trump may be proven guilty of can be pinned on Pence as well as a coconspirator. When did Pence know such and such....

Such action would leave another Republican in the WH, and put a very sour taste in the mouth of the electorate. Better to let it fester in current form, until the whole gang of thieves can be purged.

 

[Toni]

Congratulations. You have successfully impeached President Trump, and even more of an accomplishment, you have managed to remove him from office by convincing 2/3 of the Senate to find him guilty.
Your prize:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
wait for it
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Hardly seems worth it, does it?

Yeah, I looked at the line of succession in January/February 2017 and decided that an impeachment would not result in a better, more ethical person sitting in the oval office.


That said, I think that Trump probably has committed a number of impeachable offences and should be removed from office (assuming that Mueller's investigation goes as I expect it to) because I think that treason should be prosecuted and punished. I think that Trump has committed treason. Perhaps he did so unwittingly but it was't unwillingly.

Pence has turned my stomach since before this campaign. He has not improved with time. As it is, I see him on his trail tour to show the world what could be theirs if Trump falls.

I just don't think it's an improvement. And if Pence is also indicted (and it is not certain that he won't or should not be), that leaves us with Paul Ryan, at least until January 2019.

I'm hoping for that big blue wave to be a tsunami.

 

[Copernicus]

Note that even a blue wave election is unlikely to result in conviction by the Senate. A simple majority of the House is needed to pass an article of impeachment, but a super majority (2/3) vote of the Senate is required to convict. The Democrats will not likely be in a position to bring about a conviction, as only a third of the Senate is up for reelection and the Democrats are statistically unlikely to reach majority control in November. It isn't even certain that they can win back the House, given that the public is notoriously fickle. Wide gaps in poll numbers tend to narrow considerably as election day approaches, and 2/5 of the voting public still believes that Trump is doing a good job.

 

[Underseer]

Donald Trump should be impeached. There are obvious grounds for it--obstruction of justice, corruption, and conspiring with a foreign government. I feel passionately about that, and I fantasize that a "blue wave" election in November will lead to a quick impeachment trial. However, it is delusional to think that that will happen. The majority of the public are not yet in a mood to impeach the President, and that "blue wave" may crest well before November and the coming tide of pro-Republican propaganda in advance of the elections. And Russia can be counted on to continue to work to keep the US government weak, which means keeping Congress Republican.

Republicans are now using impeachment as a fund-raising tool, but they also see it as a wedge issue to drive moderates away from Democratic Party candidates. Will it work?

See the NYT article Republicans Seize on Impeachment for Edge in 2018 Midterms.

As Republican leaders scramble to stave off a Democratic wave or at least mitigate their party’s losses in November, a strategy is emerging on the right for how to energize conservatives and drive a wedge between the anti-Trump left and moderate voters: warn that Democrats will immediately move to impeach President Trump if they capture the House.

What began last year as blaring political hyperbole on the right — the stuff of bold-lettered direct mail fund-raising pitches from little-known groups warning of a looming American “coup” — is now steadily drifting into the main currents of the 2018 message for Republicans.

The appeals have become a surefire way for candidates to raise small contributions from grass-roots conservatives who are devoted to Mr. Trump, veteran Republican fund-raisers say. But party strategists also believe that floating the possibility of impeachment can also act as a sort of scared-straight motivational tool for turnout. Last week, Senator Ted Cruz of Texas used his re-election kickoff rally to introduce a video featuring a faux news anchor reading would-be headlines were conservatives not to vote in November.

“Senate Majority Leader Schumer announced the impeachment trial of President Trump,” one of the anchors says...

We are not willing to impeach for treason. I don't think there is any better way of explaining that America is a failed state than that.

 

[Elixir]

We are not willing to impeach for treason. I don't think there is any better way of explaining that America is a failed state than that.

Republicans aren't willing to impeach for treason... yet. Let's give Cheato time to completely destroy the GOP, then get voted out of office. At that point, throw the book at him and LOCK HIM UP for treason.

 

[whollygoats]

We are not willing to impeach for treason. I don't think there is any better way of explaining that America is a failed state than that.

Republicans aren't willing to impeach for treason... yet. Let's give Cheato time to completely destroy the GOP, then get voted out of office. At that point, throw the book at him and LOCK HIM UP for treason.

So....With a year under our belts, you're ready to spend three more years watching these shitheads trash our federal government?

I suspect what they are waiting for is a sufficiently large crisis, natural or manmade, to justify to imposition of martial law.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I think we have Trump until January 2021. Hate to say it, but it seems to fit the facts. Nixon's party abandoned him by late '73, with very few exceptions. Trump's GOP (and, not to be underestimated, Fox News Nation), surrounds and girds him like a mafia family. So, for someone like me, loathing Trump and unable to believe that such a toad could be "president", I just want him to continue to discredit, cheapen, and besmirch his party.
BTW, when Trump tweets "WITCH HUNT!!!" -- is he confessing to being a witch? Am I on to something?