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Woke is white arrogance

DrZoidberg

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I love Zizek. Here's a great video where he puts the finger on the problem of woke. Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior. That's of course why it's so popular. Who doesn't want to go around telling everybody how awesome they are? What could possibly be more of an ego boost. other than to literally do it?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIeZZ3vNsvM[/YOUTUBE]

Sweden has an extreme equality culture (called the law of Jante). You can always tell whoever has the most status by that they're the ones kissing the most ass and humbling themselves the most. It's the same logic behind woke.

It's 100% fake and disingenuous.

Woke IS racism.
 

KeepTalking

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I love Zizek. Here's a great video where he puts the finger on the problem of woke. Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior. That's of course why it's so popular. Who doesn't want to go around telling everybody how awesome they are? What could possibly be more of an ego boost. other than to literally do it?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIeZZ3vNsvM[/YOUTUBE]

Sweden has an extreme equality culture (called the law of Jante). You can always tell whoever has the most status by that they're the ones kissing the most ass and humbling themselves the most. It's the same logic behind woke.

It's 100% fake and disingenuous.

Woke IS racism.

One could say he is woke about "the woke", eh, Dr. Z?

Seriously, you are simply proving once again that you, and presumably Mr. Zizek (I wouldn't know, I'm not going to watch his YouTube video), know nothing about what it means to be woke.
 

DrZoidberg

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I love Zizek. Here's a great video where he puts the finger on the problem of woke. Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior. That's of course why it's so popular. Who doesn't want to go around telling everybody how awesome they are? What could possibly be more of an ego boost. other than to literally do it?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIeZZ3vNsvM[/YOUTUBE]

Sweden has an extreme equality culture (called the law of Jante). You can always tell whoever has the most status by that they're the ones kissing the most ass and humbling themselves the most. It's the same logic behind woke.

It's 100% fake and disingenuous.

Woke IS racism.

One could say he is woke about "the woke", eh, Dr. Z?

Seriously, you are simply proving once again that you, and presumably Mr. Zizek (I wouldn't know, I'm not going to watch his YouTube video), know nothing about what it means to be woke.

I don't think you can. The way to find out if a statement is true is to try to assert the opposite and see it if flies. A person saying they don't need to be ashamed of their race or class, isn't making much of a statement at all.

But please enlighten me. What is woke about then?
 

KeepTalking

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I love Zizek. Here's a great video where he puts the finger on the problem of woke. Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior. That's of course why it's so popular. Who doesn't want to go around telling everybody how awesome they are? What could possibly be more of an ego boost. other than to literally do it?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIeZZ3vNsvM[/YOUTUBE]

Sweden has an extreme equality culture (called the law of Jante). You can always tell whoever has the most status by that they're the ones kissing the most ass and humbling themselves the most. It's the same logic behind woke.

It's 100% fake and disingenuous.

Woke IS racism.

One could say he is woke about "the woke", eh, Dr. Z?

Seriously, you are simply proving once again that you, and presumably Mr. Zizek (I wouldn't know, I'm not going to watch his YouTube video), know nothing about what it means to be woke.

I don't think you can. The way to find out if a statement is true is to try to assert the opposite and see it if flies. A person saying they don't need to be ashamed of their race or class, isn't making much of a statement at all.

Then why do you find that commentary compelling enough to start a thread on it?

But please enlighten me. What is woke about then?

The term "woke" in this context, and in a very general sense refers to being aware of what is going on around you. His comment shows a perceived awareness regarding "wokeness" that is going on around him, therefor, one could say he is "woke about the woke". Of course explaining a joke tends to make it less funny, so my apologies for the bad delivery, don't worry I won't quit my day job.

What is more interesting to me is that you chose to focus on the part of my comment where I was very clearly making a joke, and ignored the more substantive reply that followed. Care to address any of that?
 

Trausti

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I love Zizek. Here's a great video where he puts the finger on the problem of woke. Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior. That's of course why it's so popular. Who doesn't want to go around telling everybody how awesome they are? What could possibly be more of an ego boost. other than to literally do it?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIeZZ3vNsvM[/YOUTUBE]

Sweden has an extreme equality culture (called the law of Jante). You can always tell whoever has the most status by that they're the ones kissing the most ass and humbling themselves the most. It's the same logic behind woke.

It's 100% fake and disingenuous.

Woke IS racism.

These have also been called luxury beliefs, as material items no longer distinguish the rich from the poor. Those who espouse these beliefs don’t bear the costs of these beliefs; e.g., the “defund the police” crowd who live in safe or gated communities or who have personal security; or the White liberal who publicly bemoans the lack of racial diversity in his profession or field but never offers to resign so a non-White can take his place.
 

Trausti

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There’s also the “emperor’s new clothes” aspect of wokeness, where it’s socially important to pretend that bullshit is substance; as only the smart and wise are supposedly able to see the clothes. Modern art is a good example of this.
 

DrZoidberg

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I don't think you can. The way to find out if a statement is true is to try to assert the opposite and see it if flies. A person saying they don't need to be ashamed of their race or class, isn't making much of a statement at all.

Then why do you find that commentary compelling enough to start a thread on it?

Because the statement that one should be ashamed of one's race or class is.

Saying that white's should take a step back and lift up black people is just a way of saying that whites are superior. I'm sure all the wokes have managed to convince themselves they aren't white supremacists (otherwise they would hardly identify as woke). But it doesn't change the fundamental implication of what they're saying.

Social justice warriors are ruled by the same broken logic.

A good example from the history of socialism is the Fabian society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society

It was an organization of wealthy industrialists to help the poor. But it's members lost interest when they weren't cheered by the poor as saviours of the people. When the labour movement began and the poor refused to be passive victims who needed the wealthy to help them, the Fabian movement died. It's entertaining to read their texts today because they're so incredibly fanciful and warped. Clearly written by rich people imagining the life of somebody they barely know.

I see woke's today as the exact same kind of movement.

But please enlighten me. What is woke about then?

The term "woke" in this context, and in a very general sense refers to being aware of what is going on around you. His comment shows a perceived awareness regarding "wokeness" that is going on around him, therefor, one could say he is "woke about the woke". Of course explaining a joke tends to make it less funny, so my apologies for the bad delivery, don't worry I won't quit my day job.

What is more interesting to me is that you chose to focus on the part of my comment where I was very clearly making a joke, and ignored the more substantive reply that followed. Care to address any of that?

What statement is that? That you refuse to watch the video?
 

bigfield

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OK, it takes about four minutes for Zizek to make a point, and it's incoherent anyway.

Zizek presents a joke intended to convey the idea that Jewish men consider it a virtue to be humble in the presence of God and that the amount of humility a Jew demonstrates is proportional to his social status. He then relates a secondhand anecdote about some white people in a classroom assuming guilt for Eurocentrism (in academia?), but somehow Muslim fundamentalists object to the notion that white people have lower status than they do? It makes no sense. He elaborates with the claim that whoever establishes that they have the least social status also assumes the privilege of judging everyone else. I think he then makes a vague point that white liberals are in favour of moral relativism because it makes black people reject objectively good ideas?

Is Zizek always this bad at making an argument? I can't even say if he's wrong or not because I'm not confident I actually know what his position is.

I love Zizek.

There's no accounting for taste, I suppose.

Here's a great video...

You are taking the piss.

... where he puts the finger on the problem of woke. Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior. That's of course why it's so popular. Who doesn't want to go around telling everybody how awesome they are? What could possibly be more of an ego boost. other than to literally do it?

A long time ago I read a self-help book that said that self-deprecating humour is a sign of high self-esteem. This didn't have anything to do with a particular ethnic group, religion or political ideology, it was a constant across all cultures. Basically, the ability to be self-deprecating, without inviting pity or scorn, is a sign or high status. It isn't some contest to see who can say the worst things about themselves, but rather a way of signalling that you're so awesome that you can put yourself down but no-one could take you seriously.

I'm not seeing how this plays out among white academias. If a white academic acknowledges their privilege, it isn't necessarily a flex; I think it can come across as a genuine attempt to gain some perspective.
 

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A long time ago I read a self-help book that said that self-deprecating humour is a sign of high self-esteem. This didn't have anything to do with a particular ethnic group, religion or political ideology, it was a constant across all cultures. Basically, the ability to be self-deprecating, without inviting pity or scorn, is a sign or high status. It isn't some contest to see who can say the worst things about themselves, but rather a way of signalling that you're so awesome that you can put yourself down but no-one could take you seriously.
While I am sure that is true in some cases, I think as a general rule, that is ridiculous. The ability to not take oneself seriously is a positive trait that should be encouraged.
 

laughing dog

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There’s also the “emperor’s new clothes” aspect of wokeness, where it’s socially important to pretend that bullshit is substance; as only the smart and wise are supposedly able to see the clothes. Modern art is a good example of this.
As is Trumpism.
 

KeepTalking

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Because the statement that one should be ashamed of one's race or class is.

Alright then, since that is the compelling interest, find us a person who is advocating that, and we can talk about it.

Saying that white's should take a step back and lift up black people is just a way of saying that whites are superior.

Oh, is he saying that? If so, let's talk about it. Why does he think that "white's(sic) should take a step back and lift up black people"? Further, do you think that not taking a step back, but lifting up black people anyway says the same thing? Or, is it that you see this as a zero sum game, and that it is not possible to lift up black people without white people taking a step back?

I'm sure all the wokes have managed to convince themselves they aren't white supremacists (otherwise they would hardly identify as woke). But it doesn't change the fundamental implication of what they're saying.

Well, I guess it is too bad that we aren't paying attention to what they are saying then, and are rather listening to people who have nothing compelling to say on the subject.

Social justice warriors are ruled by the same broken logic.

A good example from the history of socialism is the Fabian society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society

It was an organization of wealthy industrialists to help the poor. But it's members lost interest when they weren't cheered by the poor as saviours of the people. When the labour movement began and the poor refused to be passive victims who needed the wealthy to help them, the Fabian movement died. It's entertaining to read their texts today because they're so incredibly fanciful and warped. Clearly written by rich people imagining the life of somebody they barely know.

That one identifies as a social justice warrior does not mean that one is a follower of socialism.

I see woke's today as the exact same kind of movement.

If it is anything like your above contention that a social justice warrior is the same as a socialist, I think we can safely discard what you think you have seen.

But please enlighten me. What is woke about then?

The term "woke" in this context, and in a very general sense refers to being aware of what is going on around you. His comment shows a perceived awareness regarding "wokeness" that is going on around him, therefor, one could say he is "woke about the woke". Of course explaining a joke tends to make it less funny, so my apologies for the bad delivery, don't worry I won't quit my day job.

What is more interesting to me is that you chose to focus on the part of my comment where I was very clearly making a joke, and ignored the more substantive reply that followed. Care to address any of that?

What statement is that? That you refuse to watch the video?

Sure, we can talk about that if you like. What questions can I answer regarding my dislike of arguments via YouTube?

I would rather talk about the part we were already beginning to discuss, but which you avoided again to discuss a triviality. That being what woke is about. Please allow me to recap my previous nudge in that direction:

The term "woke" in this context, and in a very general sense refers to being aware of what is going on around you.
 

KeepTalking

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So are "woke" people of color are really arrogant white people?

Seems to be part of the assumption at play here.

To be fair we are talking about a view of "woke" from across the pond, so the examples they have close at hand are likely to be white people. Arrogance tends to be in the eye of the beholder.
 

Patooka

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Where do I find these "woke"? What's their preferred habitat? They must be very rare because we're two pages in and still not a specific example.
 

bigfield

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A long time ago I read a self-help book that said that self-deprecating humour is a sign of high self-esteem. This didn't have anything to do with a particular ethnic group, religion or political ideology, it was a constant across all cultures. Basically, the ability to be self-deprecating, without inviting pity or scorn, is a sign or high status. It isn't some contest to see who can say the worst things about themselves, but rather a way of signalling that you're so awesome that you can put yourself down but no-one could take you seriously.
While I am sure that is true in some cases, I think as a general rule, that is ridiculous. The ability to not take oneself seriously is a positive trait that should be encouraged.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by "no-one could take you seriously". What I meant is that "no-one could mistake your gesture of self-deprecation for a sincere expression of your feelings."
 

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Seriously, you are simply proving once again that you, and presumably Mr. Zizek (I wouldn't know, I'm not going to watch his YouTube video), know nothing about what it means to be woke.

I watched about 60 seconds before bailing. I couldn't take the accent, the constant sniffing, touching his nose and fidgeting with his clothes. Dreadful.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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I don't think you can. The way to find out if a statement is true is to try to assert the opposite and see it if flies. A person saying they don't need to be ashamed of their race or class, isn't making much of a statement at all.
Actually it is establishing a strawman position.

A parallel to the:

A: "I'm against invading Iraq."
B: "Don't you love Freedom?"

bullshit.

A: "Our nation is chock full of systemic racism that needs to be identified and acknowledged and dealt with in order to establish a greater equity in our country."
B: "I'm not ashamed of being white."
A: "I didn't say anything about being ashamed."
B: "No, you are just saying blacks are inferior you white supremecist!"
A: "Actually I'm saying blacks have difficulties in society today due to intentional policies and roadblocks put into place over the period of a couple centuries to ensure they can't succeed without a tremendous amount of luck."
B: "Racist!"
 

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It's an asinine word. Its meaning is -- in totality -- "stuff liberals say and think, that I don't like."

This is precisely correct. A long long long time ago, minorities used the word to describe white people who had the capacity for empathy. It has long since been culturally misappropriated by the right to denigrate the left. And for all of it's uses, I've never once seen any white person sporting their "I'm Woke" t-shirts. This guy in the video probably still has books of stamps so he can pay his bills with checks in the mail.

aa
 

TomC

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It's an asinine word. Its meaning is -- in totality -- "stuff liberals say and think, that I don't like."

It isn't quite that simple, but you've got an important point.

"Woke" doesn't have as much specific meaning as it has connotations and assumptions and such.

I've heard some incredibly stupid things come out of very Woke mouths. Undeniably racist in the black supremacist sort of way. Completely unable to distinguish between correlation and causation. Refusing to see that US culture is dramatically different than it was in 1965, much less 1865. The list is long.

That doesn't mean all Wokesters are like that. But plenty are to provide ammunition for detractors and skeptics.
Tom
 

Jimmy Higgins

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I've heard some incredibly stupid things come out of very Woke mouths. Undeniably racist in the black supremacist sort of way. Completely unable to distinguish between correlation and causation. Refusing to see that US culture is dramatically different than it was in 1965, much less 1865. The list is long.
Yeah, that is exactly what the whole "woke" thing is. This presumption that there is no slavery, no lynchings, therefore... we're good. But we aren't. A substantial amount of existing inequity was self-perpetuated from policies intentionally put forth at one point, and we don't need to go back too far in time for those policies. Heck, the Voting Rights Act wasn't passed 100 years ago.

More to the point regarding the self-perpetuating portion of systemic racism is that there are policies, rules, regulations that exist today that are not intended to impact along racial lines, but do. Some of it is old school rules that have long since forgotten their origin while others occur due to oversight or abject blindness to the problem. This doesn't require racist attitudes to exist and to impact along racial lines. This is the problem now. And when people complain about these real issues, we get others saying, 'It ain't the 1960s'. Correct, it is the 2020s, so why are these problems still here? And why are people refusing to even listen?

Some want to extrapolate the wackiest black supremacism nut cases onto the "Woke" label, so they can just handwave it all away. There is nothing to see here. All is fine. Look, this dozen of blacks say it is okay, therefore, it is okay.

I'm white, I'm not ashamed, like most whites that see inequity in the system. I worked hard to get where I am... but that doesn't mean some blacks didnn't work harder and just spin their wheels because they weren't allowed to move into residential neighborhoods and perpetuate the American dream.
 

JohnG

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Everyone is the hero of their own story, it doesn’t matter what side of any fence you’re on.

You think white supremists don’t come off sounding smug?
 

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A long time ago I read a self-help book that said that self-deprecating humour is a sign of high self-esteem. This didn't have anything to do with a particular ethnic group, religion or political ideology, it was a constant across all cultures. Basically, the ability to be self-deprecating, without inviting pity or scorn, is a sign or high status. It isn't some contest to see who can say the worst things about themselves, but rather a way of signalling that you're so awesome that you can put yourself down but no-one could take you seriously.
While I am sure that is true in some cases, I think as a general rule, that is ridiculous. The ability to not take oneself seriously is a positive trait that should be encouraged.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by "no-one could take you seriously". What I meant is that "no-one could mistake your gesture of self-deprecation for a sincere expression of your feelings."
I think that is ridiculous as a general rule for the rationale I expressed.
 

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I love Zizek. Here's a great video where he puts the finger on the problem of woke. Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior. That's of course why it's so popular. Who doesn't want to go around telling everybody how awesome they are? What could possibly be more of an ego boost. other than to literally do it?

M[/YOUTUBE]

Sweden has an extreme equality culture (called the law of Jante). You can always tell whoever has the most status by that they're the ones kissing the most ass and humbling themselves the most. It's the same logic behind woke.

It's 100% fake and disingenuous.

Woke IS racism.

When a person says, "I don't want to be an asshole," assholes always see this as an attack.

Their natural reaction is declare anti-asshole to be a form of asshole behavior, and then proceed to normalize asshole behavior.

It's not a situation of denying they have done something offensive, it's a matter of declaring their behavior to be proper and good, and those offended by it are the true assholes.
 

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Everyone is the hero of their own story, it doesn’t matter what side of any fence you’re on.

You think white supremists don’t come off sounding smug?

Of course they do!
Ideologues usually do.

But it isn't just wypepo. There are plenty of Wokesters who are extremely smug. Including here on TFT.

Not that I'm naming names or anything.

Tom
 

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I don't know if I've heard Zizek before, but that was tough to listen to. When he debated Jordan Peterson, it must have been like Sylvester the Cat vs. Kermit the frog.

Sorry if this has been said many times already.
 
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...Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior....

So "woke" is being humble?

This term "virtue signaling" is another way of saying the honesty from a decent person. It has an assumption that nobody has virtue. It is nihilistic rubbish.
 

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"Woke" was originally like "red pilled", becoming aware of something very important.

But right-wingers have turned it into a meaningless dirty word, as they did with the phrase "politically correct".


Like foaming at the mouth at "woke capital", while never considering anything broader, like why these "woke" or "politically correct" companies never seem to go bankrupt as a result of it. They seem to have all the broader perspective of a baby.
 

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"Woke" is a litmus test. If you are in a conversation with someone who uses phrases like, "cancel culture", "SJW", "woke", "red-pilled", "cringe" or "based", you are not talking to a human being. You are having a conversation with an algorithm.
 

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It's an asinine word. Its meaning is -- in totality -- "stuff liberals say and think, that I don't like."

This is precisely correct. A long long long time ago, minorities used the word to describe white people who had the capacity for empathy. It has long since been culturally misappropriated by the right to denigrate the left. And for all of it's uses, I've never once seen any white person sporting their "I'm Woke" t-shirts. This guy in the video probably still has books of stamps so he can pay his bills with checks in the mail.

aa

Any term for any group formed around a new idea or a group in opposition to a majority, often starts out as an insult by their enemies to disparage them. They then appropriate it and make it into their own. There's a long history of this. "Gays" is one. "Impressionism" is another. "Sans Coulottes". "Conservatism" Whenever this isn't happening we need to ask ourselves why. The answer is typically that it's a fake minority position. It's more often a majority position, framed as a faux minority position, put into existence intended to preserve the status quo and allowing the powerful to stay in power. "Socialism" is one of these. "Nationalism". But these tend to be phased out

I suspect a reason woke has fallen out of favour among the wokes (ie social justice warriors) is because it doesn't seem to be so popular among blacks?

Zizek has a great example. The term "native American" is used by wokes as more respectful term for Indian. But "American" is a European term. The term Native American and Indian are equivalent and both imply that the Native Americans/Indians are lesser than the white immigrant population. Both terms are inherently racist. There's no shortage of Native American languages to pick words from. Perhaps one of those? But those won't catch on, because then the majority population wokes won't have a word, they understand, telling them how much more awesome they are than Native Americans.
 

DrZoidberg

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"Woke" is a litmus test. If you are in a conversation with someone who uses phrases like, "cancel culture", "SJW", "woke", "red-pilled", "cringe" or "based", you are not talking to a human being. You are having a conversation with an algorithm.

How doesn't that apply to anyone having any conversation about anything? Everybody likes to think of themselves as uniquely clear minded who understands what's really going on, ie red pilled.

Your statement seems to prove that which you are arguing against. The mere fact that somebody uses a word you don't like doesn't require you to think, you can just disregard it. That's always been the attitude of the privileged who know their power isn't threatened, so they don't need to care what the little people are saying.

You remind me of feminists who has the answer "it's the patriarchy" to whatever they don't like.
 
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"Woke" is a litmus test. If you are in a conversation with someone who uses phrases like, "cancel culture", "SJW", "woke", "red-pilled", "cringe" or "based", you are not talking to a human being. You are having a conversation with an algorithm.

How doesn't that apply to anyone having any conversation about anything? Everybody likes to think of themselves as uniquely clear minded who understands what's really going on, ie red pilled.

Your statement seems to prove that which you are arguing against. The mere fact that somebody uses a word you don't like doesn't require you to think, you can just disregard it. That's always been the attitude of the privileged who know their power isn't threatened, so they don't need to care what the little people are saying.

Because as a rule the type of people who use such terms get all their opinions from youtube clips and are pretty monolithic. Honestly, when you talk about political correctness or being woke you are pretty much quoting Jordan Peterson or Eric Weinstein verbatim. And it's the same shitty fucking arguments. Much like the tired freedom of speech arguments, criticism against "woke" can be boiled down to, "I want to be an offensive cunt with zero consequences and people are calling me out. Waagh!"
 

DrZoidberg

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"Woke" is a litmus test. If you are in a conversation with someone who uses phrases like, "cancel culture", "SJW", "woke", "red-pilled", "cringe" or "based", you are not talking to a human being. You are having a conversation with an algorithm.

How doesn't that apply to anyone having any conversation about anything? Everybody likes to think of themselves as uniquely clear minded who understands what's really going on, ie red pilled.

Your statement seems to prove that which you are arguing against. The mere fact that somebody uses a word you don't like doesn't require you to think, you can just disregard it. That's always been the attitude of the privileged who know their power isn't threatened, so they don't need to care what the little people are saying.

Because as a rule the type of people who use such terms get all their opinions from youtube clips and are pretty monolithic. Honestly, when you talk about political correctness or being woke you are pretty much quoting Jordan Peterson or Eric Weinstein verbatim. And it's the same shitty fucking arguments. Much like the tired freedom of speech arguments, criticism against "woke" can be boiled down to, "I want to be an offensive cunt with zero consequences and people are calling me out. Waagh!"

I don't think I am. I think Jordan Peterson is a clown. I'm in the opposite ideological corner. Same deal with Eric Weinstein. I think conservatives suck. What I dislike about wokes and SJW's is that they're making my side look bad.

I think you've completely misunderstood who I am and why I'm saying the things I am. I'm a left progressive.
 

Swammerdami

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OK, it takes about four minutes for Zizek to make a point, and it's incoherent anyway.
Here's a great video...
You are taking the piss.

... where he puts the finger on the problem of woke. Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior. That's of course why it's so popular. Who doesn't want to go around telling everybody how awesome they are? What could possibly be more of an ego boost. other than to literally do it?

A long time ago I read a self-help book that said that self-deprecating humour is a sign of high self-esteem. This didn't have anything to do with a particular ethnic group, religion or political ideology, it was a constant across all cultures....

I'm not seeing how this plays out among white academias. If a white academic acknowledges their privilege, it isn't necessarily a flex; I think it can come across as a genuine attempt to gain some perspective.

(I didn't watch 4 minutes: I gave up after one. He kept wiping his nose and scratching himself. What's all that? Some variation of Tourette's syndrome?)

Awareness of and empathy for other ethnicities, other cultures, other genders, etc. is good. Surely all but hard-core bigots will agree with that. Only the most ignorant white Americans are unaware that their ethnicity gives them advantages in the U.S. Do the anti-Wokers here deny any of that?

Some privileged people are smug or snobbish — that was true long before "Wokeness" became a thing. If they choose to be snobbish about their own "wokeness" instead of snobbish about something else ... so what? And sure, one can find — usually with help from Tucker Carlson or others of that ilk — examples of wokeness gone too far; but again ... so what? Such exceptional exaggerated examples of "embracing human diversity" are not on America's List of Top 100 Problems. Are they?

No, the whole "I Hate Wokeness" movement is just a crusade by the right-wing to make bigots feel better about themselves, and to sell more MAGA apparel.
 

Patooka

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Because as a rule the type of people who use such terms get all their opinions from youtube clips and are pretty monolithic. Honestly, when you talk about political correctness or being woke you are pretty much quoting Jordan Peterson or Eric Weinstein verbatim. And it's the same shitty fucking arguments. Much like the tired freedom of speech arguments, criticism against "woke" can be boiled down to, "I want to be an offensive cunt with zero consequences and people are calling me out. Waagh!"

I don't think I am. I think Jordan Peterson is a clown. I'm in the opposite ideological corner. Same deal with Eric Weinstein. I think conservatives suck. What I dislike about wokes and SJW's is that they're making my side look bad.

I think you've completely misunderstood who I am and why I'm saying the things I am. I'm a left progressive.

Who? Who does this? Honestly, if it is just some random fucker who you don't know their name, aren't in any position of power or influence and you are still worried about their behaviour because it might make "your side look bad" fuck 'em and calm the fuck down. I'd rather be concerned about actual fuckers who are in important positions of power and influence and their unproductive behaviour.

Let me know when "woke" becomes like the Proud Boys - don't bother me beforehand.
 

bigfield

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Because as a rule the type of people who use such terms get all their opinions from youtube clips and are pretty monolithic. Honestly, when you talk about political correctness or being woke you are pretty much quoting Jordan Peterson or Eric Weinstein verbatim. And it's the same shitty fucking arguments. Much like the tired freedom of speech arguments, criticism against "woke" can be boiled down to, "I want to be an offensive cunt with zero consequences and people are calling me out. Waagh!"

I don't think I am. I think Jordan Peterson is a clown. I'm in the opposite ideological corner. Same deal with Eric Weinstein. I think conservatives suck. What I dislike about wokes and SJW's is that they're making my side look bad.

I think you've completely misunderstood who I am and why I'm saying the things I am. I'm a left progressive.

Sure, you've made arguments in the past that put you at odds with Peterson's wacky brand of conservatism, but that doesn't change the fact that your arguments on this topic are just more of the same chaff that a few of those "intellectual dark web" types seem to repeat ad nauseam. Your argument doesn't magically become smarter because you're a lefty offering constructive criticism to his comrades.
 
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Gospel

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Because as a rule the type of people who use such terms get all their opinions from youtube clips and are pretty monolithic. Honestly, when you talk about political correctness or being woke you are pretty much quoting Jordan Peterson or Eric Weinstein verbatim. And it's the same shitty fucking arguments. Much like the tired freedom of speech arguments, criticism against "woke" can be boiled down to, "I want to be an offensive cunt with zero consequences and people are calling me out. Waagh!"

I don't think I am. I think Jordan Peterson is a clown. I'm in the opposite ideological corner. Same deal with Eric Weinstein. I think conservatives suck. What I dislike about wokes and SJW's is that they're making my side look bad.

I think you've completely misunderstood who I am and why I'm saying the things I am. I'm a left progressive.


Bruh, you're in a different country so you gotta say it like "I'm a left progressive, Denmark style" then do a dance or something.
 

DrZoidberg

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OK, it takes about four minutes for Zizek to make a point, and it's incoherent anyway.

You are taking the piss.



A long time ago I read a self-help book that said that self-deprecating humour is a sign of high self-esteem. This didn't have anything to do with a particular ethnic group, religion or political ideology, it was a constant across all cultures....

I'm not seeing how this plays out among white academias. If a white academic acknowledges their privilege, it isn't necessarily a flex; I think it can come across as a genuine attempt to gain some perspective.

(I didn't watch 4 minutes: I gave up after one. He kept wiping his nose and scratching himself. What's all that? Some variation of Tourette's syndrome?)

Awareness of and empathy for other ethnicities, other cultures, other genders, etc. is good. Surely all but hard-core bigots will agree with that. Only the most ignorant white Americans are unaware that their ethnicity gives them advantages in the U.S. Do the anti-Wokers here deny any of that?

Some privileged people are smug or snobbish — that was true long before "Wokeness" became a thing. If they choose to be snobbish about their own "wokeness" instead of snobbish about something else ... so what? And sure, one can find — usually with help from Tucker Carlson or others of that ilk — examples of wokeness gone too far; but again ... so what? Such exceptional exaggerated examples of "embracing human diversity" are not on America's List of Top 100 Problems. Are they?

No, the whole "I Hate Wokeness" movement is just a crusade by the right-wing to make bigots feel better about themselves, and to sell more MAGA apparel.

I'd argue that wokeism has nothing to do with awereness and empathy for other ethicities and cultures. If they did that they'd ask representatives of these other ethnicities and cultures what they'd like. But that's not as fun using them as a baseball bat in a political proxy battle among priviliged whites. It's just something woke people say they care about. I've yet to see any evidence woke people actually care about brown people. What's their action plan? Awareness alone doesn't fix shit.

I don't think the woke want whites to be less priviliged at all. What's the action plan to fix that? Who, who is priviliged, doesn't enjoy being priviliged? I don't think anybody priviliged is willing to do anything to become less priviliged. Discriminatory laws are already gone. In the US they went away half a century ago. Most countries in Europe never had them. So that's obviously not what the wokes are fighting for. If it isn't that, what are they on about? Just having empathy? Gee... wow. What will you do next, send "thoughts and prayers"?

Yes, Zizek probably has some sort of neurological problem. You're not the first to point that out. But it's interesting how your wokeness doesn't seem to encompass sufferers of neurological problems. See how stupid wokeness is? It's an ever expanding sphere of victimhood with fuzzy edges. The woke categories are rigid. But people rarely fit neatly into a category.
 

DrZoidberg

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Because as a rule the type of people who use such terms get all their opinions from youtube clips and are pretty monolithic. Honestly, when you talk about political correctness or being woke you are pretty much quoting Jordan Peterson or Eric Weinstein verbatim. And it's the same shitty fucking arguments. Much like the tired freedom of speech arguments, criticism against "woke" can be boiled down to, "I want to be an offensive cunt with zero consequences and people are calling me out. Waagh!"

I don't think I am. I think Jordan Peterson is a clown. I'm in the opposite ideological corner. Same deal with Eric Weinstein. I think conservatives suck. What I dislike about wokes and SJW's is that they're making my side look bad.

I think you've completely misunderstood who I am and why I'm saying the things I am. I'm a left progressive.

Who? Who does this? Honestly, if it is just some random fucker who you don't know their name, aren't in any position of power or influence and you are still worried about their behaviour because it might make "your side look bad" fuck 'em and calm the fuck down. I'd rather be concerned about actual fuckers who are in important positions of power and influence and their unproductive behaviour.

Let me know when "woke" becomes like the Proud Boys - don't bother me beforehand.

I see the woke and the proud boys as symptoms of the same problem. Just because wokes aren't murdering people doesn't mean they aren't causing damage. Free speech and free expression is the foundation of western democracy. Wokes are often attacking this. That's not harmless.

I also dislike your tribalism. Being willfully blind to transgressions on your own side isn't a virtue. It's a vice. That's what leads to the increased polarization of our age.
 

bigfield

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Zizek has a great example. The term "native American" is used by wokes as more respectful term for Indian. But "American" is a European term. The term Native American and Indian are equivalent and both imply that the Native Americans/Indians are lesser than the white immigrant population. Both terms are inherently racist. There's no shortage of Native American languages to pick words from. Perhaps one of those? But those won't catch on, because then the majority population wokes won't have a word, they understand, telling them how much more awesome they are than Native Americans.

Your explanation for the term "Native American" is that it has to be an English word so racists can feel good about themselves?

As in:
"American" is superior to "Native American"?
"American" is superior to "Indian"?

The example Zizek gave in the video was pretty funny. One perticular guy prefers to be called "Indian" instead of "Native American" because it's a constant reminder of white people's stupidity. I can get behind that!

There's a page on WIkipedia that gives an overview of this problem:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy

Your explanation doesn't feature at all. At most, it could be inferred by the fact that some indigenous people reject all exonyms, no matter what language they are in. You wouldn't fix this problem by picking a Native American word, either, because you'd be missing the point.
 

untermensche

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Striving to refer to races or groups of people in ways that are not derogatory to them is this "woke"?

Striving to not hurt other people's feelings, even if you fail, is "woke"?

"Woke" sounds like good stuff.

The only thing bad is the unwillingness to try to find less offensive labels.

I commend the Cleveland baseball club and the Washington football club.

And don't like people who use the term "woke" in a derogatory manner that much.

It is basically a term to allow bad people to feel good about their evil thoughts.

Woke = caring about your fellow man, even if you are just a human and fail sometimes
 

DrZoidberg

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Zizek has a great example. The term "native American" is used by wokes as more respectful term for Indian. But "American" is a European term. The term Native American and Indian are equivalent and both imply that the Native Americans/Indians are lesser than the white immigrant population. Both terms are inherently racist. There's no shortage of Native American languages to pick words from. Perhaps one of those? But those won't catch on, because then the majority population wokes won't have a word, they understand, telling them how much more awesome they are than Native Americans.

Your explanation for the term "Native American" is that it has to be an English word so racists can feel good about themselves?

As in:
"American" is superior to "Native American"?
"American" is superior to "Indian"?

The example Zizek gave in the video was pretty funny. One perticular guy prefers to be called "Indian" instead of "Native American" because it's a constant reminder of white people's stupidity. I can get behind that!

There's a page on WIkipedia that gives an overview of this problem:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy

Your explanation doesn't feature at all. At most, it could be inferred by the fact that some indigenous people reject all exonyms, no matter what language they are in. You wouldn't fix this problem by picking a Native American word, either, because you'd be missing the point.

No, wait... there's an even better way to settle this. Just fuck everybody's feelings. Don't put so much importance on what other people call you. Let everybody use whatever words they want. If it hurts your feelings... that's ok. We don't need to agree on using any terms. This is a stupid pseudo debate in order for one group, the woke's to get to inflate their own importance and feel superior to those who use the wrong words. We just need to get better at tolerating the fuck ups of ignorant people. And it's got to be ok to be ignorant. Not everybody needs to know every cultural quirk of every culture. That's just dumb. And demanding that from normal people is as ridiculous as it is extreme.

I'm pretty sure that native Americans are more upset about being relegated to reserves and having their ancestors murdered rather than what words you use to call them. There's no culturally sensitive way to paper over that lil' transgression.

In order to be considered a civilized citizen of USA nobody should be required to read that wikipedia page. Nobody. And nobody should be considered a bad person for using the wrong word. How about focusing on good intentions instead? Woke's don't seem to care about the intent. They're more focused on packaging than content. More focused on what can be copy pasted and shared on social media rather than what people are actually trying to do.

And more importantly, just because you use a more politically correct word than someone else, doesn't make you a better person than them. You know nothing about them or why they said what they said.
 

ZiprHead

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Zizek has a great example. The term "native American" is used by wokes as more respectful term for Indian. But "American" is a European term. The term Native American and Indian are equivalent and both imply that the Native Americans/Indians are lesser than the white immigrant population. Both terms are inherently racist. There's no shortage of Native American languages to pick words from. Perhaps one of those? But those won't catch on, because then the majority population wokes won't have a word, they understand, telling them how much more awesome they are than Native Americans.

Your explanation for the term "Native American" is that it has to be an English word so racists can feel good about themselves?

As in:
"American" is superior to "Native American"?
"American" is superior to "Indian"?

The example Zizek gave in the video was pretty funny. One perticular guy prefers to be called "Indian" instead of "Native American" because it's a constant reminder of white people's stupidity. I can get behind that!

There's a page on WIkipedia that gives an overview of this problem:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy

Your explanation doesn't feature at all. At most, it could be inferred by the fact that some indigenous people reject all exonyms, no matter what language they are in. You wouldn't fix this problem by picking a Native American word, either, because you'd be missing the point.

No, wait... there's an even better way to settle this. Just fuck everybody's feelings. Don't put so much importance on what other people call you. Let everybody use whatever words they want. If it hurts your feelings... that's ok. We don't need to agree on using any terms. This is a stupid pseudo debate in order for one group, the woke's to get to inflate their own importance and feel superior to those who use the wrong words. We just need to get better at tolerating the fuck ups of ignorant people. And it's got to be ok to be ignorant. Not everybody needs to know every cultural quirk of every culture. That's just dumb. And demanding that from normal people is as ridiculous as it is extreme.

That sounds like a great way to create a peaceful and prosperous society. :rolleyes:
 

DrZoidberg

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No, wait... there's an even better way to settle this. Just fuck everybody's feelings. Don't put so much importance on what other people call you. Let everybody use whatever words they want. If it hurts your feelings... that's ok. We don't need to agree on using any terms. This is a stupid pseudo debate in order for one group, the woke's to get to inflate their own importance and feel superior to those who use the wrong words. We just need to get better at tolerating the fuck ups of ignorant people. And it's got to be ok to be ignorant. Not everybody needs to know every cultural quirk of every culture. That's just dumb. And demanding that from normal people is as ridiculous as it is extreme.

That sounds like a great way to create a peaceful and prosperous society. :rolleyes:

I know you are being sarcastic. But yes, a society with greater compassion and less division. Wokes are social poison. It can only lead to greater division and witch hunts. There's no end to identifying "the enemy of the people".
 

bigfield

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I'm pretty sure that native Americans are more upset about being relegated to reserves and having their ancestors murdered rather than what words you use to call them. There's no culturally sensitive way to paper over that lil' transgression.

Are you trying to out-woke me? If I was a better woke I probably would have used this idiotic red-herring on you when you brought up the topic of "Indian" vs "Native American" in the first place.
 

KeepTalking

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Zizek has a great example. The term "native American" is used by wokes as more respectful term for Indian. But "American" is a European term. The term Native American and Indian are equivalent and both imply that the Native Americans/Indians are lesser than the white immigrant population. Both terms are inherently racist. There's no shortage of Native American languages to pick words from. Perhaps one of those? But those won't catch on, because then the majority population wokes won't have a word, they understand, telling them how much more awesome they are than Native Americans.

Your explanation for the term "Native American" is that it has to be an English word so racists can feel good about themselves?

As in:
"American" is superior to "Native American"?
"American" is superior to "Indian"?

The example Zizek gave in the video was pretty funny. One perticular guy prefers to be called "Indian" instead of "Native American" because it's a constant reminder of white people's stupidity. I can get behind that!

There's a page on WIkipedia that gives an overview of this problem:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy

Your explanation doesn't feature at all. At most, it could be inferred by the fact that some indigenous people reject all exonyms, no matter what language they are in. You wouldn't fix this problem by picking a Native American word, either, because you'd be missing the point.

No, wait... there's an even better way to settle this. Just fuck everybody's feelings. Don't put so much importance on what other people call you. Let everybody use whatever words they want. If it hurts your feelings... that's ok. We don't need to agree on using any terms. This is a stupid pseudo debate in order for one group, the woke's to get to inflate their own importance and feel superior to those who use the wrong words. We just need to get better at tolerating the fuck ups of ignorant people. And it's got to be ok to be ignorant. Not everybody needs to know every cultural quirk of every culture. That's just dumb. And demanding that from normal people is as ridiculous as it is extreme.

I'm pretty sure that native Americans are more upset about being relegated to reserves and having their ancestors murdered rather than what words you use to call them. There's no culturally sensitive way to paper over that lil' transgression.

In order to be considered a civilized citizen of USA nobody should be required to read that wikipedia page. Nobody. And nobody should be considered a bad person for using the wrong word. How about focusing on good intentions instead? Woke's don't seem to care about the intent. They're more focused on packaging than content. More focused on what can be copy pasted and shared on social media rather than what people are actually trying to do.

And more importantly, just because you use a more politically correct word than someone else, doesn't make you a better person than them. You know nothing about them or why they said what they said.

If you don't want to sound like a conservative to those of us in the States, you might not want to use phrases that the MAGA hats proudly wear on their T-shirts, like "Fuck your feelings". Of course, you are free to say it, and I am not going to go out of my way to prevent you from saying it. I guess that makes me not "woke", and in that I would agree, despite often being labelled as such by conservatives whenever they don't like what I say.

I tend to avoid saying things that piss other people off, unless I am intentionally trying to piss them off. I find, however, that I feel the need to piss people off less frequently these days. I don't think it makes me a better person than anyone, it just makes me feel better about myself. As a wise woman once said:

"Ain't nobody got time for that."
 
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