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Woke is white arrogance

DrZoidberg

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I love Zizek. Here's a great video where he puts the finger on the problem of woke. Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior. That's of course why it's so popular. Who doesn't want to go around telling everybody how awesome they are? What could possibly be more of an ego boost. other than to literally do it?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIeZZ3vNsvM[/YOUTUBE]

Sweden has an extreme equality culture (called the law of Jante). You can always tell whoever has the most status by that they're the ones kissing the most ass and humbling themselves the most. It's the same logic behind woke.

It's 100% fake and disingenuous.

Woke IS racism.
 

KeepTalking

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I love Zizek. Here's a great video where he puts the finger on the problem of woke. Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior. That's of course why it's so popular. Who doesn't want to go around telling everybody how awesome they are? What could possibly be more of an ego boost. other than to literally do it?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIeZZ3vNsvM[/YOUTUBE]

Sweden has an extreme equality culture (called the law of Jante). You can always tell whoever has the most status by that they're the ones kissing the most ass and humbling themselves the most. It's the same logic behind woke.

It's 100% fake and disingenuous.

Woke IS racism.

One could say he is woke about "the woke", eh, Dr. Z?

Seriously, you are simply proving once again that you, and presumably Mr. Zizek (I wouldn't know, I'm not going to watch his YouTube video), know nothing about what it means to be woke.
 

DrZoidberg

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I love Zizek. Here's a great video where he puts the finger on the problem of woke. Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior. That's of course why it's so popular. Who doesn't want to go around telling everybody how awesome they are? What could possibly be more of an ego boost. other than to literally do it?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIeZZ3vNsvM[/YOUTUBE]

Sweden has an extreme equality culture (called the law of Jante). You can always tell whoever has the most status by that they're the ones kissing the most ass and humbling themselves the most. It's the same logic behind woke.

It's 100% fake and disingenuous.

Woke IS racism.

One could say he is woke about "the woke", eh, Dr. Z?

Seriously, you are simply proving once again that you, and presumably Mr. Zizek (I wouldn't know, I'm not going to watch his YouTube video), know nothing about what it means to be woke.

I don't think you can. The way to find out if a statement is true is to try to assert the opposite and see it if flies. A person saying they don't need to be ashamed of their race or class, isn't making much of a statement at all.

But please enlighten me. What is woke about then?
 

KeepTalking

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I love Zizek. Here's a great video where he puts the finger on the problem of woke. Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior. That's of course why it's so popular. Who doesn't want to go around telling everybody how awesome they are? What could possibly be more of an ego boost. other than to literally do it?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIeZZ3vNsvM[/YOUTUBE]

Sweden has an extreme equality culture (called the law of Jante). You can always tell whoever has the most status by that they're the ones kissing the most ass and humbling themselves the most. It's the same logic behind woke.

It's 100% fake and disingenuous.

Woke IS racism.

One could say he is woke about "the woke", eh, Dr. Z?

Seriously, you are simply proving once again that you, and presumably Mr. Zizek (I wouldn't know, I'm not going to watch his YouTube video), know nothing about what it means to be woke.

I don't think you can. The way to find out if a statement is true is to try to assert the opposite and see it if flies. A person saying they don't need to be ashamed of their race or class, isn't making much of a statement at all.

Then why do you find that commentary compelling enough to start a thread on it?

But please enlighten me. What is woke about then?

The term "woke" in this context, and in a very general sense refers to being aware of what is going on around you. His comment shows a perceived awareness regarding "wokeness" that is going on around him, therefor, one could say he is "woke about the woke". Of course explaining a joke tends to make it less funny, so my apologies for the bad delivery, don't worry I won't quit my day job.

What is more interesting to me is that you chose to focus on the part of my comment where I was very clearly making a joke, and ignored the more substantive reply that followed. Care to address any of that?
 

Trausti

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I love Zizek. Here's a great video where he puts the finger on the problem of woke. Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior. That's of course why it's so popular. Who doesn't want to go around telling everybody how awesome they are? What could possibly be more of an ego boost. other than to literally do it?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIeZZ3vNsvM[/YOUTUBE]

Sweden has an extreme equality culture (called the law of Jante). You can always tell whoever has the most status by that they're the ones kissing the most ass and humbling themselves the most. It's the same logic behind woke.

It's 100% fake and disingenuous.

Woke IS racism.

These have also been called luxury beliefs, as material items no longer distinguish the rich from the poor. Those who espouse these beliefs don’t bear the costs of these beliefs; e.g., the “defund the police” crowd who live in safe or gated communities or who have personal security; or the White liberal who publicly bemoans the lack of racial diversity in his profession or field but never offers to resign so a non-White can take his place.
 

Trausti

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There’s also the “emperor’s new clothes” aspect of wokeness, where it’s socially important to pretend that bullshit is substance; as only the smart and wise are supposedly able to see the clothes. Modern art is a good example of this.
 

DrZoidberg

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I don't think you can. The way to find out if a statement is true is to try to assert the opposite and see it if flies. A person saying they don't need to be ashamed of their race or class, isn't making much of a statement at all.

Then why do you find that commentary compelling enough to start a thread on it?

Because the statement that one should be ashamed of one's race or class is.

Saying that white's should take a step back and lift up black people is just a way of saying that whites are superior. I'm sure all the wokes have managed to convince themselves they aren't white supremacists (otherwise they would hardly identify as woke). But it doesn't change the fundamental implication of what they're saying.

Social justice warriors are ruled by the same broken logic.

A good example from the history of socialism is the Fabian society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society

It was an organization of wealthy industrialists to help the poor. But it's members lost interest when they weren't cheered by the poor as saviours of the people. When the labour movement began and the poor refused to be passive victims who needed the wealthy to help them, the Fabian movement died. It's entertaining to read their texts today because they're so incredibly fanciful and warped. Clearly written by rich people imagining the life of somebody they barely know.

I see woke's today as the exact same kind of movement.

But please enlighten me. What is woke about then?

The term "woke" in this context, and in a very general sense refers to being aware of what is going on around you. His comment shows a perceived awareness regarding "wokeness" that is going on around him, therefor, one could say he is "woke about the woke". Of course explaining a joke tends to make it less funny, so my apologies for the bad delivery, don't worry I won't quit my day job.

What is more interesting to me is that you chose to focus on the part of my comment where I was very clearly making a joke, and ignored the more substantive reply that followed. Care to address any of that?

What statement is that? That you refuse to watch the video?
 

bigfield

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OK, it takes about four minutes for Zizek to make a point, and it's incoherent anyway.

Zizek presents a joke intended to convey the idea that Jewish men consider it a virtue to be humble in the presence of God and that the amount of humility a Jew demonstrates is proportional to his social status. He then relates a secondhand anecdote about some white people in a classroom assuming guilt for Eurocentrism (in academia?), but somehow Muslim fundamentalists object to the notion that white people have lower status than they do? It makes no sense. He elaborates with the claim that whoever establishes that they have the least social status also assumes the privilege of judging everyone else. I think he then makes a vague point that white liberals are in favour of moral relativism because it makes black people reject objectively good ideas?

Is Zizek always this bad at making an argument? I can't even say if he's wrong or not because I'm not confident I actually know what his position is.

I love Zizek.

There's no accounting for taste, I suppose.

Here's a great video...

You are taking the piss.

... where he puts the finger on the problem of woke. Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior. That's of course why it's so popular. Who doesn't want to go around telling everybody how awesome they are? What could possibly be more of an ego boost. other than to literally do it?

A long time ago I read a self-help book that said that self-deprecating humour is a sign of high self-esteem. This didn't have anything to do with a particular ethnic group, religion or political ideology, it was a constant across all cultures. Basically, the ability to be self-deprecating, without inviting pity or scorn, is a sign or high status. It isn't some contest to see who can say the worst things about themselves, but rather a way of signalling that you're so awesome that you can put yourself down but no-one could take you seriously.

I'm not seeing how this plays out among white academias. If a white academic acknowledges their privilege, it isn't necessarily a flex; I think it can come across as a genuine attempt to gain some perspective.
 

laughing dog

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A long time ago I read a self-help book that said that self-deprecating humour is a sign of high self-esteem. This didn't have anything to do with a particular ethnic group, religion or political ideology, it was a constant across all cultures. Basically, the ability to be self-deprecating, without inviting pity or scorn, is a sign or high status. It isn't some contest to see who can say the worst things about themselves, but rather a way of signalling that you're so awesome that you can put yourself down but no-one could take you seriously.
While I am sure that is true in some cases, I think as a general rule, that is ridiculous. The ability to not take oneself seriously is a positive trait that should be encouraged.
 

laughing dog

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There’s also the “emperor’s new clothes” aspect of wokeness, where it’s socially important to pretend that bullshit is substance; as only the smart and wise are supposedly able to see the clothes. Modern art is a good example of this.
As is Trumpism.
 

KeepTalking

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Because the statement that one should be ashamed of one's race or class is.

Alright then, since that is the compelling interest, find us a person who is advocating that, and we can talk about it.

Saying that white's should take a step back and lift up black people is just a way of saying that whites are superior.

Oh, is he saying that? If so, let's talk about it. Why does he think that "white's(sic) should take a step back and lift up black people"? Further, do you think that not taking a step back, but lifting up black people anyway says the same thing? Or, is it that you see this as a zero sum game, and that it is not possible to lift up black people without white people taking a step back?

I'm sure all the wokes have managed to convince themselves they aren't white supremacists (otherwise they would hardly identify as woke). But it doesn't change the fundamental implication of what they're saying.

Well, I guess it is too bad that we aren't paying attention to what they are saying then, and are rather listening to people who have nothing compelling to say on the subject.

Social justice warriors are ruled by the same broken logic.

A good example from the history of socialism is the Fabian society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society

It was an organization of wealthy industrialists to help the poor. But it's members lost interest when they weren't cheered by the poor as saviours of the people. When the labour movement began and the poor refused to be passive victims who needed the wealthy to help them, the Fabian movement died. It's entertaining to read their texts today because they're so incredibly fanciful and warped. Clearly written by rich people imagining the life of somebody they barely know.

That one identifies as a social justice warrior does not mean that one is a follower of socialism.

I see woke's today as the exact same kind of movement.

If it is anything like your above contention that a social justice warrior is the same as a socialist, I think we can safely discard what you think you have seen.

But please enlighten me. What is woke about then?

The term "woke" in this context, and in a very general sense refers to being aware of what is going on around you. His comment shows a perceived awareness regarding "wokeness" that is going on around him, therefor, one could say he is "woke about the woke". Of course explaining a joke tends to make it less funny, so my apologies for the bad delivery, don't worry I won't quit my day job.

What is more interesting to me is that you chose to focus on the part of my comment where I was very clearly making a joke, and ignored the more substantive reply that followed. Care to address any of that?

What statement is that? That you refuse to watch the video?

Sure, we can talk about that if you like. What questions can I answer regarding my dislike of arguments via YouTube?

I would rather talk about the part we were already beginning to discuss, but which you avoided again to discuss a triviality. That being what woke is about. Please allow me to recap my previous nudge in that direction:

The term "woke" in this context, and in a very general sense refers to being aware of what is going on around you.
 

KeepTalking

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So are "woke" people of color are really arrogant white people?

Seems to be part of the assumption at play here.

To be fair we are talking about a view of "woke" from across the pond, so the examples they have close at hand are likely to be white people. Arrogance tends to be in the eye of the beholder.
 

Patooka

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Where do I find these "woke"? What's their preferred habitat? They must be very rare because we're two pages in and still not a specific example.
 

bigfield

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A long time ago I read a self-help book that said that self-deprecating humour is a sign of high self-esteem. This didn't have anything to do with a particular ethnic group, religion or political ideology, it was a constant across all cultures. Basically, the ability to be self-deprecating, without inviting pity or scorn, is a sign or high status. It isn't some contest to see who can say the worst things about themselves, but rather a way of signalling that you're so awesome that you can put yourself down but no-one could take you seriously.
While I am sure that is true in some cases, I think as a general rule, that is ridiculous. The ability to not take oneself seriously is a positive trait that should be encouraged.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by "no-one could take you seriously". What I meant is that "no-one could mistake your gesture of self-deprecation for a sincere expression of your feelings."
 

TSwizzle

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Seriously, you are simply proving once again that you, and presumably Mr. Zizek (I wouldn't know, I'm not going to watch his YouTube video), know nothing about what it means to be woke.

I watched about 60 seconds before bailing. I couldn't take the accent, the constant sniffing, touching his nose and fidgeting with his clothes. Dreadful.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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I don't think you can. The way to find out if a statement is true is to try to assert the opposite and see it if flies. A person saying they don't need to be ashamed of their race or class, isn't making much of a statement at all.
Actually it is establishing a strawman position.

A parallel to the:

A: "I'm against invading Iraq."
B: "Don't you love Freedom?"

bullshit.

A: "Our nation is chock full of systemic racism that needs to be identified and acknowledged and dealt with in order to establish a greater equity in our country."
B: "I'm not ashamed of being white."
A: "I didn't say anything about being ashamed."
B: "No, you are just saying blacks are inferior you white supremecist!"
A: "Actually I'm saying blacks have difficulties in society today due to intentional policies and roadblocks put into place over the period of a couple centuries to ensure they can't succeed without a tremendous amount of luck."
B: "Racist!"
 
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