• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Woke is white arrogance

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,396
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
I'm pretty sure that native Americans are more upset about being relegated to reserves and having their ancestors murdered rather than what words you use to call them. There's no culturally sensitive way to paper over that lil' transgression.

Are you trying to out-woke me? If I was a better woke I probably would have used this idiotic red-herring on you when you brought up the topic of "Indian" vs "Native American" in the first place.

You put your finger on the issue. Woke is competitive consciousness. It's about who can show they're the most empathic. Because it's a competition they reduce everything to that which can be compared and quantified, and then they use that as a proxy for being the most empathic and compassionate. Missing the entire point of empathy and compassion. They're so busy being empathic that they stop actually being empathic. Instead they become mean and petty. They become everything they're supposed to NOT be. That's why woke is a social poison.
 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,396
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
If you don't want to sound like a conservative to those of us in the States, you might not want to use phrases that the MAGA hats proudly wear on their T-shirts, like "Fuck your feelings". Of course, you are free to say it, and I am not going to go out of my way to prevent you from saying it. I guess that makes me not "woke", and in that I would agree, despite often being labelled as such by conservatives whenever they don't like what I say.

I tend to avoid saying things that piss other people off, unless I am intentionally trying to piss them off. I find, however, that I feel the need to piss people off less frequently these days. I don't think it makes me a better person than anyone, it just makes me feel better about myself. As a wise woman once said:

"Ain't nobody got time for that."

If the wokes could keep it to this, then we wouldn't have a problem. But they don't. They spend time policing other people's words and actions. And that's where it goes from constructive to destructive.
 

bigfield

the baby-eater
Joined
May 4, 2011
Messages
4,610
Location
Straya
Basic Beliefs
yeah nah
I'm pretty sure that native Americans are more upset about being relegated to reserves and having their ancestors murdered rather than what words you use to call them. There's no culturally sensitive way to paper over that lil' transgression.

Are you trying to out-woke me? If I was a better woke I probably would have used this idiotic red-herring on you when you brought up the topic of "Indian" vs "Native American" in the first place.

You put your finger on the issue. Woke is competitive consciousness. It's about who can show they're the most empathic. Because it's a competition they reduce everything to that which can be compared and quantified, and then they use that as a proxy for being the most empathic and compassionate. Missing the entire point of empathy and compassion. They're so busy being empathic that they stop actually being empathic. Instead they become mean and petty. They become everything they're supposed to NOT be. That's why woke is a social poison.

Who are "they"? Do they actually exist and are they people worth worrying about?

Who? Who does this? Honestly, if it is just some random fucker who you don't know their name, aren't in any position of power or influence and you are still worried about their behaviour because it might make "your side look bad" fuck 'em and calm the fuck down.
 

KeepTalking

Code Monkey
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
4,641
Location
St. Louis Metro East
Basic Beliefs
Atheist, Secular Humanist, Pastifarian, IPUnitard
If you don't want to sound like a conservative to those of us in the States, you might not want to use phrases that the MAGA hats proudly wear on their T-shirts, like "Fuck your feelings". Of course, you are free to say it, and I am not going to go out of my way to prevent you from saying it. I guess that makes me not "woke", and in that I would agree, despite often being labelled as such by conservatives whenever they don't like what I say.

I tend to avoid saying things that piss other people off, unless I am intentionally trying to piss them off. I find, however, that I feel the need to piss people off less frequently these days. I don't think it makes me a better person than anyone, it just makes me feel better about myself. As a wise woman once said:

"Ain't nobody got time for that."

If the wokes could keep it to this, then we wouldn't have a problem. But they don't. They spend time policing other people's words and actions. And that's where it goes from constructive to destructive.

How do you know?

You present a YouTube video from someone else pontificating about "wokeness", and you rail constantly about things you perceive that the "woke" are saying and doing, but you provide no concrete examples of "the woke" actually doing that. I don't know who these "woke" people are that you are talking about. They certainly do not resemble anyone who I know who talked about being "woke" prior to a couple of years ago when the term became a conservative talking point. Maybe it's because the "woke" in Copenhagen are an entirely different group than the woke in East Saint Louis. As far as I know, the "woke" in Copenhagen do not have to be aware of how the color of their skin is perceived by the authorities, and how that affects every public move they make, so that could be part of the problem.
 

TomC

Celestial Highness
Joined
Oct 1, 2020
Messages
4,746
Location
Midwestern USA
Gender
Faggot
Basic Beliefs
Agnostic deist
Who are "they"? Do they actually exist and are they people worth worrying about?

Oh yes, they are legion.

They strongly remind me of the uber-Evangelical Christian people.

Their noisy, smug, self righteousness is sometimes insufferable. While I recognize that not all Wokesters are like that, enough are to give me a tendency to use Woke as a derogatory.

This is coming from a gay white atheist who was on the board of the local NAACP branch for a couple of years. Who opposes abortion so much I support Planned Parenthood.

If empathetic and civilized behavior was all there was to Woke, I'd be all about it. But it isn't. Not in my long experience.
Tom
 

Politesse

Lux Aeterna
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
8,955
Location
Chochenyo Territory, US
Gender
nb; all pronouns fine
Basic Beliefs
Jedi Wayseeker
It's 100% fake and disingenuous.

Woke IS racism.

So do you believe that posting this thread is not, somehow, a demonstration of your own feelings of arrogance and vanity? Are you not, yourself, telling a large segment of socety what they believe (against their own objections about your mischaracterization) and how that perspective is ignorant and wrong compared to yours? What does arrogance mean, if not that? Especially when your own source is some random Youtube video, not.. you know, an actual meaningful source. This makes it unearned arrogance, the worst kind if you ask me.

If it's a choice between racism-tolerant arrogance and explicitly anti-racist arrogance, I will happily choose the latter.
 

KeepTalking

Code Monkey
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
4,641
Location
St. Louis Metro East
Basic Beliefs
Atheist, Secular Humanist, Pastifarian, IPUnitard
Who are "they"? Do they actually exist and are they people worth worrying about?

Oh yes, they are legion.

They strongly remind me of the uber-Evangelical Christian people.

Their noisy, smug, self righteousness is sometimes insufferable. While I recognize that not all Wokesters are like that, enough are to give me a tendency to use Woke as a derogatory.

This is coming from a gay white atheist who was on the board of the local NAACP branch for a couple of years. Who opposes abortion so much I support Planned Parenthood.

If empathetic and civilized behavior was all there was to Woke, I'd be all about it. But it isn't. Not in my long experience.
Tom

That is just it, empathetic and civilized behavior has nothing to do with woke. Woke is about awareness, not what you do after you gain that awareness. That some people will act in an uncivil manner in an attempt to change the injustice that they see does not mean that it is a bad thing to become aware of that injustice in the first place.
 

Gun Nut

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2018
Messages
2,821
Location
Colorado
Basic Beliefs
None
Who are "they"? Do they actually exist and are they people worth worrying about?

Oh yes, they are legion.

They strongly remind me of the uber-Evangelical Christian people.

Their noisy, smug, self righteousness is sometimes insufferable. While I recognize that not all Wokesters are like that, enough are to give me a tendency to use Woke as a derogatory.

This is coming from a gay white atheist who was on the board of the local NAACP branch for a couple of years. Who opposes abortion so much I support Planned Parenthood.

If empathetic and civilized behavior was all there was to Woke, I'd be all about it. But it isn't. Not in my long experience.
Tom

.. and "They" are my cousins, and their classmates, who attend classically woke universities this and the past several years... who's politicaly active stances are the precise thing that keep Democrats from holding power.
It is a case of them constantly attempting to out-woking each other... this is where the imaginary outrages come from... an attempt to win the awareness award of the day. The result being, "look at what the looney left wants to do if you vote for them"

No body gives a flying fuck about something common in society that poses an obstruction to a tiny number of people with a highly specific and rare situation.... except the woke asshole that wants to display their knowledge of this obscure situation.

At some point in our not-so-distant past, our society decided that placing ramps where stairs are is a good thing to do for people that have trouble with stairs. At no fucking point in our history did anyone ever consider stairs to be racist, un-woke, evils.... but if this woke shit was around then like it is today, anyone using stairs would be a racist trump supporting prick.
 

TomC

Celestial Highness
Joined
Oct 1, 2020
Messages
4,746
Location
Midwestern USA
Gender
Faggot
Basic Beliefs
Agnostic deist
That is just it, empathetic and civilized behavior has nothing to do with woke.

Unfortunately, this is exactly true.

Woke is just like Christianity, in the sense that it doesn't mean much. It's an ideology. And complete assholes qualify as Woke, just as they might Christian. Or Muslim. Or Libertarian. Or Atheist. Or whatever.

Tom
 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,396
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
You put your finger on the issue. Woke is competitive consciousness. It's about who can show they're the most empathic. Because it's a competition they reduce everything to that which can be compared and quantified, and then they use that as a proxy for being the most empathic and compassionate. Missing the entire point of empathy and compassion. They're so busy being empathic that they stop actually being empathic. Instead they become mean and petty. They become everything they're supposed to NOT be. That's why woke is a social poison.

Who are "they"? Do they actually exist and are they people worth worrying about?

Who? Who does this? Honestly, if it is just some random fucker who you don't know their name, aren't in any position of power or influence and you are still worried about their behaviour because it might make "your side look bad" fuck 'em and calm the fuck down.

"They" are everywhere. Last week I spent at an art festival absolutely full of it. This is in Denmark. Probably Europe's least woke country. Its in the Media everywhere. I've made plenty of threads here with examples. This Forums own Politesse makes plenty of Woke posts. Current advertising is full of wokeness. Silicon Valley companies make woke statements. We had pride here in Copenhagen last week. The city was covered in rainbow flags. I wonder how many of them were flown by people who have ever done anything for a gay person?

Yeah... Woke is a huge problem in the western world. My American friends who travel between Europe and USA say its much worse in USA.

I think it's a question of being aware of it. I was super woke only a couple of years ago, and had been my entire life. A couple of incidents made me aware of how warped my thinking was, and I finally snapped out of it.

Being woke is very seductive. I felt awesome. I was a crusader for good. Its was so easy to be virtuous. All I needed to do was to avoid words on the naughty list. I didn't have to do anything to help those in actual need.

Volonteering in a homeless shelter was the final nail in the woke coffin. That's when I realised that those who took their time to help mostly identified as Conservative. Conservatives did practical things to help. Progressives mostly went to parties.

I'm not defending conservatives now. I see it more as that today's progressives have been seduced into territory that is an ideological dead end.

I don't know why. But us liberals used to be the grounded ones. I want that back
 

Politesse

Lux Aeterna
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
8,955
Location
Chochenyo Territory, US
Gender
nb; all pronouns fine
Basic Beliefs
Jedi Wayseeker
Accusing me of social awareness is the weirdest "insult"! :D Will you try to hurt my widdle feelings by calling me a social justice warrior, next? Or anti-fascist?

I don't believe most of the nonsense you claim that "Woke" people do, but if you think I'm scared or offended by the word itself, I am not.
 

TomC

Celestial Highness
Joined
Oct 1, 2020
Messages
4,746
Location
Midwestern USA
Gender
Faggot
Basic Beliefs
Agnostic deist
Accusing me of social awareness is the weirdest "insult"! :D Will you try to hurt my widdle feelings by calling me a social justice warrior, next? Or anti-fascist?

I don't believe most of the nonsense you claim that "Woke" people do, but if you think I'm scared or offended by the word itself, I am not.

Your smug self righteousness isn't news.
Tom
 

ZiprHead

Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
32,058
Location
Frozen in Michigan
Gender
Old Fart
Basic Beliefs
Democratic Socialist Atheist
I'm pretty sure that native Americans are more upset about being relegated to reserves and having their ancestors murdered rather than what words you use to call them. There's no culturally sensitive way to paper over that lil' transgression.

Are you trying to out-woke me? If I was a better woke I probably would have used this idiotic red-herring on you when you brought up the topic of "Indian" vs "Native American" in the first place.

You put your finger on the issue. Woke is competitive consciousness. It's about who can show they're the most empathic. Because it's a competition they reduce everything to that which can be compared and quantified, and then they use that as a proxy for being the most empathic and compassionate. Missing the entire point of empathy and compassion. They're so busy being empathic that they stop actually being empathic. Instead they become mean and petty. They become everything they're supposed to NOT be. That's why woke is a social poison.

Can you provide a real life example of this? Something that can be verified.
 

Gospel

Unify Africa
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
3,488
Location
Florida
Gender
B====D
Basic Beliefs
Agnostic
Maybe DrZoidberg saw this video and instead of posting in the Youtube comments section, decided to make a thread here about being woke for clout? If so I can hardly blame him.
[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxMRBKvVplM[/YOUTUBE]
 

Emily Lake

Might be a replicant
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
4,235
Location
It's a desert out there
Gender
Agenderist
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
I'd argue that wokeism has nothing to do with awereness and empathy for other ethicities and cultures. If they did that they'd ask representatives of these other ethnicities and cultures what they'd like. But that's not as fun using them as a baseball bat in a political proxy battle among priviliged whites. It's just something woke people say they care about. I've yet to see any evidence woke people actually care about brown people. What's their action plan? Awareness alone doesn't fix shit.

The action plan seems to be "defund the police", which is something generally NOT supported by minorities in the US.
 

Emily Lake

Might be a replicant
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
4,235
Location
It's a desert out there
Gender
Agenderist
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
[
I see the woke and the proud boys as symptoms of the same problem. Just because wokes aren't murdering people doesn't mean they aren't causing damage. Free speech and free expression is the foundation of western democracy. Wokes are often attacking this. That's not harmless.

This is where the influence of critical theory comes into the mix. One of the underlying objectives of critical theory is to challenge and revoke the foundations of liberal democracy.
 

Emily Lake

Might be a replicant
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
4,235
Location
It's a desert out there
Gender
Agenderist
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
I'm pretty sure that native Americans are more upset about being relegated to reserves and having their ancestors murdered rather than what words you use to call them. There's no culturally sensitive way to paper over that lil' transgression.

Are you trying to out-woke me? If I was a better woke I probably would have used this idiotic red-herring on you when you brought up the topic of "Indian" vs "Native American" in the first place.

All of you fail. The truly enlightened know that it's "first nations peoples". <smug face>
 

Politesse

Lux Aeterna
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
8,955
Location
Chochenyo Territory, US
Gender
nb; all pronouns fine
Basic Beliefs
Jedi Wayseeker
Accusing me of social awareness is the weirdest "insult"! :D Will you try to hurt my widdle feelings by calling me a social justice warrior, next? Or anti-fascist?

I don't believe most of the nonsense you claim that "Woke" people do, but if you think I'm scared or offended by the word itself, I am not.

Your smug self righteousness isn't news.
Tom

"Smug"? But also self-hating according to the conservative portrayal of the Wokes, yes? So I hate myself and want myself and all other white people to be enslaved to the whims of an evil Black/Jewish/atheist conspiracy, but am also smug and self-righteous about it? Is that the claim?

I'm curious, how would I prove that I wasn't "smug"?
 

Gospel

Unify Africa
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
3,488
Location
Florida
Gender
B====D
Basic Beliefs
Agnostic
Accusing me of social awareness is the weirdest "insult"! :D Will you try to hurt my widdle feelings by calling me a social justice warrior, next? Or anti-fascist?

I don't believe most of the nonsense you claim that "Woke" people do, but if you think I'm scared or offended by the word itself, I am not.

Your smug self righteousness isn't news.
Tom

"Smug"? But also self-hating according to the conservative portrayal of the Wokes, yes? So I hate myself and want myself and all other white people to be enslaved to the whims of an evil Black/Jewish/atheist conspiracy, but am also smug and self-righteous about it? Is that the claim?

That sounds awfully kinky. :D
 

Politesse

Lux Aeterna
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
8,955
Location
Chochenyo Territory, US
Gender
nb; all pronouns fine
Basic Beliefs
Jedi Wayseeker
"Smug"? But also self-hating according to the conservative portrayal of the Wokes, yes? So I hate myself and want myself and all other white people to be enslaved to the whims of an evil Black/Jewish/atheist conspiracy, but am also smug and self-righteous about it? Is that the claim?

That sounds awfully kinky. :D
If you think that's kinky, you should see my clubbing boots.
 

RVonse

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2005
Messages
2,389
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
that people in the US are living in the matrx
Because as a rule the type of people who use such terms get all their opinions from youtube clips and are pretty monolithic. Honestly, when you talk about political correctness or being woke you are pretty much quoting Jordan Peterson or Eric Weinstein verbatim. And it's the same shitty fucking arguments. Much like the tired freedom of speech arguments, criticism against "woke" can be boiled down to, "I want to be an offensive cunt with zero consequences and people are calling me out. Waagh!"

I don't think I am. I think Jordan Peterson is a clown. I'm in the opposite ideological corner. Same deal with Eric Weinstein. I think conservatives suck. What I dislike about wokes and SJW's is that they're making my side look bad.

I think you've completely misunderstood who I am and why I'm saying the things I am. I'm a left progressive.


Bruh, you're in a different country so you gotta say it like "I'm a left progressive, Denmark style" then do a dance or something.

:notworthy::notworthy:
 

RVonse

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2005
Messages
2,389
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
that people in the US are living in the matrx
I love Zizek. Here's a great video where he puts the finger on the problem of woke. Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior. That's of course why it's so popular. Who doesn't want to go around telling everybody how awesome they are? What could possibly be more of an ego boost. other than to literally do it?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIeZZ3vNsvM[/YOUTUBE]

Sweden has an extreme equality culture (called the law of Jante). You can always tell whoever has the most status by that they're the ones kissing the most ass and humbling themselves the most. It's the same logic behind woke.

It's 100% fake and disingenuous.

Woke IS racism.

These have also been called luxury beliefs, as material items no longer distinguish the rich from the poor. Those who espouse these beliefs don’t bear the costs of these beliefs; e.g., the “defund the police” crowd who live in safe or gated communities or who have personal security; or the White liberal who publicly bemoans the lack of racial diversity in his profession or field but never offers to resign so a non-White can take his place.
In addition to what you just said, these beliefs are also heavily taught in liberal institutions. And today there are far too many over educated people competing for too few good paying jobs. These people really can't brag about their money or their penis size (which they really don't have that much of anyway) so they brag to each other about what they learned in school.
 

Elixir

Made in America
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
21,301
Location
Mountains
Basic Beliefs
English is complicated
today there are far too many over educated people competing for too few good paying jobs.

Yeah we be needs MORE IGNERINTS!
How else ya gonna git 'em to vote fer Trump or any other paytreet?

It is funny how stupid people want more people to be stupid, smart people want more people to be smart, ignorant people want more people to be ignorant and educated people want more people to be educated...

oh ... who to believe, who to believe...???

(HINT: if this is a problem for you, you have given away the category to which you belong)
 

RVonse

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2005
Messages
2,389
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
that people in the US are living in the matrx
today there are far too many over educated people competing for too few good paying jobs.

Yeah we be needs MORE IGNERINTS!
How else ya gonna git 'em to vote fer Trump or any other paytreet?

It is funny how stupid people want more people to be stupid, smart people want more people to be smart, ignorant people want more people to be ignorant and educated people want more people to be educated...

oh ... who to believe, who to believe...???

(HINT: if this is a problem for you, you have given away the category to which you belong)

Following your logic I should want more educated people since I am highly educated. But I did not say there should be less education anyway. I said there are too many educated people competing for too few high paying jobs. And I was (and am) right about that.
 

untermensche

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2006
Messages
24,504
Location
Here
Basic Beliefs
magic mood ring
Some people like to label having a coherent morality as having smug self-righteousness.

I am opposed to rapists. I don't take any of their arguments seriously.

I am not being smug or self-righteous.

I am expressing a morality that recognizes harm.

The same with people opposed to universal health care.

I don't take their immorality seriously.

Like I don't take anti-vaxxers (irresponsible children) seriously.

Morality gives one ground to stand on to make judgments.

Having a morality and condemning those without one is not self righteousness.
 

Elixir

Made in America
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
21,301
Location
Mountains
Basic Beliefs
English is complicated
today there are far too many over educated people competing for too few good paying jobs.

Yeah we be needs MORE IGNERINTS!
How else ya gonna git 'em to vote fer Trump or any other paytreet?

It is funny how stupid people want more people to be stupid, smart people want more people to be smart, ignorant people want more people to be ignorant and educated people want more people to be educated...

oh ... who to believe, who to believe...???

(HINT: if this is a problem for you, you have given away the category to which you belong)

Following your logic I should want more educated people since I am highly educated.

Oh? It didn't seem to take. You might be a font of knowledge, but you're still vulnerable to the appeal of simplistic propaganda.
Of all the stuff "they" taught you, discerning truth doesn't appear to have been one of them.
That you don't want more educated people, looks like a straightforward wish to deny people an advantage that you have had, excused by a fallacious assumption that we need more participants in the "serf" class. Quite a bit of that can be expected from the elite "overeducated" on the far right.
But I'm sure you believe you have the collective "good" in mind.
:rolleyes:
 

Elixir

Made in America
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
21,301
Location
Mountains
Basic Beliefs
English is complicated
I said there are too many educated people competing for too few high paying jobs. And I was (and am) right about that.

Sorry - was called away... to finish my last post:
Too many educated people competing for too few high paying jobs can logically be solved by either reducing the number of educated people, or by paying more to people. You said you don't want fewer educated people - even though you said there were too many of them competing. Either you don't want them educated or you don't want them competing. You just said you are not opposing education, so... you don't want them competing. Paying them more to do the jobs they can get is the only other solution. Fantasizing that your right wing unfettered capitalist approach will somehow give all those educated people CEO pay is ... fantasizing.
You must favor a high minimum wage and taxing high income individuals, right?
Or do you favor the right wing Betsy DeVos approach to "educating" people (i.e. keeping them ignorant)?
 
Last edited:

KeepTalking

Code Monkey
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
4,641
Location
St. Louis Metro East
Basic Beliefs
Atheist, Secular Humanist, Pastifarian, IPUnitard
These people really can't brag about their money or their penis size (which they really don't have that much of anyway) so they brag to each other about what they learned in school.

Good to know nothing has changed since I was in college. A young man has to get laid some how, and what else you got at that point? Of course in my experience, shit like politics was not the way to go if you really wanted to get laid. You had to learn something about poetry and literature, and brag about that.

I am actually fascinated that you find bragging about what you learned in school to be a negative trait. What in your mind is worth bragging about, if not educating one self?
 

lpetrich

Contributor
Joined
Jul 28, 2000
Messages
20,065
Location
Eugene, OR
Gender
Male
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
... or the White liberal who publicly bemoans the lack of racial diversity in his profession or field but never offers to resign so a non-White can take his place.
That's like defending antebellum-South plantation slavery by saying that its opponents are all well-off people who can easily pay more for cotton clothes. Something like "I work for my living. I've never seen any of those so-called abolitionists do a day's work in their lives. Those lazy whiners live off of inheritances and they can easily afford to pay more for clothes, but I can't."
 

Politesse

Lux Aeterna
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
8,955
Location
Chochenyo Territory, US
Gender
nb; all pronouns fine
Basic Beliefs
Jedi Wayseeker
Bragging about education makes more sense to me than bragging about penis size. It seems to me that the size of your penis says more about what your mother was looking for in a sexual partner than it does about your personal virtues or accomplishments per se. All power to her, of course, but how does that say anything in particular about you as a person?
 

bigfield

the baby-eater
Joined
May 4, 2011
Messages
4,610
Location
Straya
Basic Beliefs
yeah nah
Who are "they"? Do they actually exist and are they people worth worrying about?

"They" are everywhere. Last week I spent at an art festival absolutely full of it. This is in Denmark. Probably Europe's least woke country. Its in the Media everywhere. I've made plenty of threads here with examples. This Forums own Politesse makes plenty of Woke posts. Current advertising is full of wokeness. Silicon Valley companies make woke statements. We had pride here in Copenhagen last week. The city was covered in rainbow flags. I wonder how many of them were flown by people who have ever done anything for a gay person?

You've characterised woke as entirely pretentious and insincere and concerned solely with improving one's own esteem, but that is definitely not the impression I get from reading Politesse's posts. I see the opposite: Politesse's posts indicate he's a academic who takes his subject matter seriously and has genuine interest in understanding people. You yourself advocate for the tolerance of ignorance, but it should be obvious that this is totally incompatible with the pursuit of knowledge. I certainly would not expect a serious academic to be willing to let ignorant statements about society and human nature go unchallenged.

I would agree that woke advertising and corporate PR is obviously cynical virtue signalling. I don't think it's a useful reflection of anyone other than the people those companies are marketing to.

I don't remember any of your media examples other than a couple of vague complaints that the Swedish public broadcaster was too politically correct.

Volonteering in a homeless shelter was the final nail in the woke coffin. That's when I realised that those who took their time to help mostly identified as Conservative. Conservatives did practical things to help. Progressives mostly went to parties.

I'm not defending conservatives now. I see it more as that today's progressives have been seduced into territory that is an ideological dead end.

Soup kitchens are entirely consistent with religious conservatives' values. A lot of church communities put a high value on charity and community service.

However, there seems to be a common idea among conservatives that this kind of charity should exist instead of government-run welfare. Government should stay out of the business of helping the needy, because that is the job of the people. Therefore, the purpose of charity is not simply to help those in need, but to have in place a social hierarchy where everyone has a place. Some people's place is to be a beggar; some people's place is to be a virtuous volunteer or donor.

I've seen a few conservatives boast online that they are the ones feeding and clothing the homeless, but at the same time, those same people oppose more ambitious projects that would actually put people in houses and buy food for themselves. Those more ambitious projects are typically characterised as left-wing policies, because government assumes the community's responsibility to look after the poor. Do these conservatives feel like they are being robbed of an opportunity to be charitable? Do they disagree with who exactly government is helping? I don't really understand the attitude.

I think you'll find that progressives do practical things to help as well, but you're probably looking in the wrong places. Progressives are more likely to make practical help their full time occupation. For an example specific to homelessness, there are social workers whose full time job is to find vulnerable people a place to live and a job, and they work within a network of other people whose full time job is providing for people's wellbeing and future. Mind you, you might not meet these people if your social calendar finds you mixing with pretentious wankers at art exhibitions.
 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,396
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Accusing me of social awareness is the weirdest "insult"! :D Will you try to hurt my widdle feelings by calling me a social justice warrior, next? Or anti-fascist?

I don't believe most of the nonsense you claim that "Woke" people do, but if you think I'm scared or offended by the word itself, I am not.

It's not an insult. Its a question of different values. I think you are sincere. At least you come across as such. I think you see yourself as a good person making the world a better place with your woke posts. Woke people often do.

If it was just about awereness, or spreading awereness, it wouldn't be a problem. The problem comes from demanding that others also are aware. And attacking those who aren't. Its aware oneupmanship.
 

Politesse

Lux Aeterna
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
8,955
Location
Chochenyo Territory, US
Gender
nb; all pronouns fine
Basic Beliefs
Jedi Wayseeker
Accusing me of social awareness is the weirdest "insult"! :D Will you try to hurt my widdle feelings by calling me a social justice warrior, next? Or anti-fascist?

I don't believe most of the nonsense you claim that "Woke" people do, but if you think I'm scared or offended by the word itself, I am not.

It's not an insult. Its a question of different values. I think you are sincere. At least you come across as such. I think you see yourself as a good person making the world a better place with your woke posts. Woke people often do.

If it was just about awereness, or spreading awereness, it wouldn't be a problem. The problem comes from demanding that others also are aware. And attacking those who aren't. Its aware oneupmanship.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but you live in a society. People aren't really going to stay out of your business, and you don't really stay out of theirs either. You're old enough to know better by now.

You're also not ashamed to tell others how they ought to believe and act - no one forced you to create this thread attacking other people for thinking wrong and demanding that they become "aware" of the views of your favorite communist Youtube philosopher - so what kind of an overt double standard are you running here?
 

zorq

Veteran Member
Joined
May 9, 2002
Messages
1,743
Location
Republic of Korea
Basic Beliefs
Atheist, Moderate
Okay, I have met a few people who might qualify as a "woke evangelist" but only one of them was truly annoying. Most would just bring up topics of their interest that happened in the recent news. The annoying one would get huffy if she encountered something that offended her sensibilities. But none of these people saw "wokeness" as a competition. None of them were striving to prove their superiority and only the annoying one would ever show condescension to others.

Dr. Zoidberg, maybe your issue isn't with wokeness. Maybe it's with some assholes in your personal life. Or maybe the wokeness you have a problem with is a regional issue which isn't quite the same wokeness as it exists in other places. (Or maybe I'm the aberration)

Either way, telling people that they are being assholes is fine by me. I still don't understand your aversion to it. This thread seems to be an indictment against "the woke" (as you see them) because you think they are arrogant assholes. But then you present your alternative philosophy that boils down to "nobody should bother the assholes, let them be dicks in peace and they might go away." It just doesn't make sense, and it contradicts the very premise of this thread which seems to be to let woke assholes know that (in your opinion) their efforts to eliminate assholes are the opposite of productive. But if you truly believed in letting assholes do their assholishness in peace, then where the hell did this thread come from?

An asshole can't address their dick behavior unless they become aware of it. That's why you posted this thread, and that's why woke people point out the failures of others to empathize.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
37,511
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
I love Zizek. Here's a great video where he puts the finger on the problem of woke. Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior. That's of course why it's so popular. Who doesn't want to go around telling everybody how awesome they are? What could possibly be more of an ego boost. other than to literally do it?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIeZZ3vNsvM[/YOUTUBE]

Sweden has an extreme equality culture (called the law of Jante). You can always tell whoever has the most status by that they're the ones kissing the most ass and humbling themselves the most. It's the same logic behind woke.

It's 100% fake and disingenuous.

Woke IS racism.

These have also been called luxury beliefs, as material items no longer distinguish the rich from the poor. Those who espouse these beliefs don’t bear the costs of these beliefs; e.g., the “defund the police” crowd who live in safe or gated communities or who have personal security; or the White liberal who publicly bemoans the lack of racial diversity in his profession or field but never offers to resign so a non-White can take his place.
In addition to what you just said, these beliefs are also heavily taught in liberal institutions. And today there are far too many over educated people competing for too few good paying jobs. These people really can't brag about their money or their penis size (which they really don't have that much of anyway) so they brag to each other about what they learned in school.

And how often are you fixated on the penises of people you don’t care for?
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
11,493
Gender
Androgyne; they/them
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
Hey Gospel, I think you and I can resolve this fairly quickly as far as to whether the OP title is true. I'm white, you're black. Is what I am "arrogant" in primary character, as regards my racial outlook?

And keep in mind, I am admittedly a rather arrogant person at times; but this is not about what one person can be and rather about the character of what one person is, with regards to another person, in a way that may disprove, through example, the claim of the OP.
 

Elixir

Made in America
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
21,301
Location
Mountains
Basic Beliefs
English is complicated
Following your logic I should want more educated people since I am highly educated.

There is a big difference between educated and indoctrinated. MAGA supporters who unconditionally believe the election was stolen are the latter.

Yes, you have put your finger on the communication problem here.
@RVonse is highly indoctrinated, part of which involves maintaining ignorance of facts the run counter to the indoctrination. Another part is that he mistakes watching "rather long videos" from the My Pillow crackhead guy for education.
Belief that the election was stolen despite a complete and utter lack of evidence of fraud, belief that Rudi found anything incriminating on "Hunter's laptop" ... and at least a half dozen other counter-factual beliefs evinced by RV, can only arise from exposure to right wing propaganda, and insulation from factual sources.

There's not much that can be done about it. In the famous words of Mae West, you can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think.
 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,396
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Accusing me of social awareness is the weirdest "insult"! :D Will you try to hurt my widdle feelings by calling me a social justice warrior, next? Or anti-fascist?

I don't believe most of the nonsense you claim that "Woke" people do, but if you think I'm scared or offended by the word itself, I am not.

It's not an insult. Its a question of different values. I think you are sincere. At least you come across as such. I think you see yourself as a good person making the world a better place with your woke posts. Woke people often do.

If it was just about awereness, or spreading awereness, it wouldn't be a problem. The problem comes from demanding that others also are aware. And attacking those who aren't. Its aware oneupmanship.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but you live in a society. People aren't really going to stay out of your business, and you don't really stay out of theirs either. You're old enough to know better by now.

You're also not ashamed to tell others how they ought to believe and act - no one forced you to create this thread attacking other people for thinking wrong and demanding that they become "aware" of the views of your favorite communist Youtube philosopher - so what kind of an overt double standard are you running here?

I only shame people for trying to use social pressure to kill free expression. To use bullying tactics to silence dissent. I think it's evil. Woke is basically a version of, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. And the antithesis of progress and liberal values.

Zizek isn't really a communist. In the 90'ies he was the party leader for Slovenians liberal party. Ie market liberal. He only says he's a communist to fuck with people. What he says is that he's a "Stalinist". In Eastern Europe that's like saying you're a Nazi or the Devil. Obviously he isn't that. He says it because he dislikes black and white political dichotomies and has the opinion that if you don't understand that he's joking then you should stop listening to him.

This is also a major problem with woke. We're supposed to give a shit if other people get offended by our actions. Other people's offence is our problem. By necessity, that means we demand that the public discourse is adapted to the dumbest members of society. That's not how to create progress (which is what the left is supposed to be all about).

He has no interest in dumbing down to convince stupid people. As a philosopher his job is to provide brutal truths and dissect anything we uncritically take for granted. He's too intelligent to be easily dismissed IMHO. If you do that then, I think, it's most likely you who is intellectually lazy, and think it's scary to honestly look at and question your own behaviour. You know... authenticity. All famous philosopher are famous for good reasons.

edit: I just assume he's joking about being a Stalinist. He hasn't said he isn't. But I'd say his beliefs are incompatible with Stalinism. And considering his dark sense of humour I think it's absoutely a joke. I've read several of his books. So I'm pretty convinced it's a joke.

edit: I also think that it's ok to be offensive. Back in the day, 40'ies, 50'ies and 60'ies being allowed to be offensive was what progressives were fighting for. At some point in the 70'ies something went horribly wrong in the left. Was it possibly Sex Pistols?
 
Last edited:

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
37,511
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
When did "Woke" have to do with being offended. CRT/Woke is about systemic/unrealized process issues that take race into account negatively (ID recognition software, hiring processes), without it being recognized. And then there are the times it is recognized. Like the valuation of the same home of a black family verses a white family, but in the spirit of commonality, assumed to not be intentional.

That has fuck all to do with being offended and can cost families tens of thousands in a sale, employment at a better location, etc... Stuff that perpetuates a lot down the road. A black family isn't whining about being offended their house was reappraised for $60,000 more using photos of white people in their home. They want their fucking money!

You are just going off on the typical anti "PC" arguments, whining about whether people should be bothered if they act like racists.
 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,396
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Okay, I have met a few people who might qualify as a "woke evangelist" but only one of them was truly annoying. Most would just bring up topics of their interest that happened in the recent news. The annoying one would get huffy if she encountered something that offended her sensibilities. But none of these people saw "wokeness" as a competition. None of them were striving to prove their superiority and only the annoying one would ever show condescension to others.

Dr. Zoidberg, maybe your issue isn't with wokeness. Maybe it's with some assholes in your personal life. Or maybe the wokeness you have a problem with is a regional issue which isn't quite the same wokeness as it exists in other places. (Or maybe I'm the aberration)

Either way, telling people that they are being assholes is fine by me. I still don't understand your aversion to it. This thread seems to be an indictment against "the woke" (as you see them) because you think they are arrogant assholes. But then you present your alternative philosophy that boils down to "nobody should bother the assholes, let them be dicks in peace and they might go away." It just doesn't make sense, and it contradicts the very premise of this thread which seems to be to let woke assholes know that (in your opinion) their efforts to eliminate assholes are the opposite of productive. But if you truly believed in letting assholes do their assholishness in peace, then where the hell did this thread come from?

An asshole can't address their dick behavior unless they become aware of it. That's why you posted this thread, and that's why woke people point out the failures of others to empathize.

I'm 100% ok with people being assholes. Nobody ever needs to be nice to me, or anyone. I'm super cool with being offended. Nobody should feel forced to invite anybody to any party.

My problem with woke is more along the lines of it being an existential threat to liberal values, democracy and western civilization. Which is a problem. If we have Trumpism on one side, ie a existential threat to liberal values, democracy and western civilisation on one hand and woke on the other, we might find ourselves in the same situation Turkey was in which led to Erdogan's power grab.

If an anti-democratic force are trying to grab power and you have been elected as leader, but you are an opportunistic scumbag who have reached power simply by virtue signaling and making statements every intelligent person sees right through, you might think to yourself, "hm... I can take power here. Who's to stop me?" If you think Middle-Eastern countries are uniquely vulnerable to this, remember that Germany in the 1920'ies was the global epicenter of philosophy and scientific thought.

Middle-Eastern Islamism has a lot of parallels with Western wokism. Both are fine with dispensing with freedom of expression on the altar of moralism and virtue. Both are utterly ruthless when it comes to having a polished public surface. Within Islamism and Wokism leadership is mostly just about parroting popular slogans while having policies utterly devoid of any substance. It's leaders are more concerned about just staying in power for its own sake rather than doing anything worthwhile with that power. They must surely know everything out of their mouth is disingenuous. At this point it's all utter fantasy.

I've been woke. I've been in these circles. I know how the woke brain works from the inside. It's essentially a cult. Endlessly repeat and validate the most virtuous statements. Be extremely critical of those who fail to repeat the most virtuous statements accurately. Invent convoluted theoretical academical frameworks that identify enemies we can form a movement in opposition to (Racism, patriarchy etc). If we can't find people racist enough, we'll twist reality to make them more racist.

It's an extremely dangerous and seductive ideology IMHO. That's why I argue against it so much.

But I don't think we're heading towards an apocalypse. I think western democracy is too ingrained by this point and I do woke will collapse in a whimper and die out. But it might get messy before we reach that point. Political instability and a fall in western prestige and power.

edit: In the Covid thread on this forum I got the impression that there was a correlation between woke users and the lack of respect for basic human rights.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
37,511
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
Okay, I have met a few people who might qualify as a "woke evangelist" but only one of them was truly annoying. Most would just bring up topics of their interest that happened in the recent news. The annoying one would get huffy if she encountered something that offended her sensibilities. But none of these people saw "wokeness" as a competition. None of them were striving to prove their superiority and only the annoying one would ever show condescension to others.

Dr. Zoidberg, maybe your issue isn't with wokeness. Maybe it's with some assholes in your personal life. Or maybe the wokeness you have a problem with is a regional issue which isn't quite the same wokeness as it exists in other places. (Or maybe I'm the aberration)

Either way, telling people that they are being assholes is fine by me. I still don't understand your aversion to it. This thread seems to be an indictment against "the woke" (as you see them) because you think they are arrogant assholes. But then you present your alternative philosophy that boils down to "nobody should bother the assholes, let them be dicks in peace and they might go away." It just doesn't make sense, and it contradicts the very premise of this thread which seems to be to let woke assholes know that (in your opinion) their efforts to eliminate assholes are the opposite of productive. But if you truly believed in letting assholes do their assholishness in peace, then where the hell did this thread come from?

An asshole can't address their dick behavior unless they become aware of it. That's why you posted this thread, and that's why woke people point out the failures of others to empathize.

I'm 100% ok with people being assholes. Nobody ever needs to be nice to me, or anyone. I'm super cool with being offended. Nobody should feel forced to invite anybody to any party.

My problem with woke is more along the lines of it being an existential threat to liberal values, democracy and western civilization. Which is a problem. If we have Trumpism on one side, ie a existential threat to liberal values, democracy and western civilisation on one hand and woke on the other, we might find ourselves in the same situation Turkey was in which led to Erdogan's power grab.
Trumpism is an Authoritarian / anti-democracy movement attempting to remove the rights of minorities, LGBT, and anything not them. Woke is noticing that house appraisers appraise white owned house higher than black owned ones. Comparing the two is ignorant as all fuck.

You want to extapolate the hypersensitive on the left across an entire movement whose scope is much deeper than 'being offended'. Where as Trump had his supporters in the Capitol Building waiting for the military to arrive and arrests Biden and Harris.
 

ideologyhunter

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Messages
4,800
Location
Port Clinton, Ohio
Basic Beliefs
atheism/beatnikism
...not to mention being consummate morons when it comes to understanding absolutely basic health information, thus insuring that half a million, heading toward a full million of our citizens will be dead from a disease whose spread is preventable.
 

Swammerdami

Squadron Leader
Staff member
Joined
Dec 16, 2017
Messages
3,030
Location
Land of Smiles
Basic Beliefs
pseudo-deism
Within Islamism and Wokism leadership is mostly just about parroting popular slogans while having policies utterly devoid of any substance. It's leaders are more concerned about just staying in power for its own sake rather than doing anything worthwhile with that power. They must surely know everything out of their mouth is disingenuous. At this point it's all utter fantasy.

Examples please. Are there Americans spouting "wokism" disingenuously to stay in power? Who are they, and what are examples of their wokist nonsense?
 

KeepTalking

Code Monkey
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
4,641
Location
St. Louis Metro East
Basic Beliefs
Atheist, Secular Humanist, Pastifarian, IPUnitard
I've been woke. I've been in these circles. I know how the woke brain works from the inside.

I suppose you have a black friend who tells you that you aren't a racist as well?

Get the fuck outta here with "I used to be woke."

You display a total ignorance of what it means to be woke. You can't even show us examples of "woke" people, only examples of people bitching about woke people. I have no idea what you think you were, but it sure as hell wasn't "woke" as I have ever known it to be.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
11,493
Gender
Androgyne; they/them
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
I've been woke. I've been in these circles. I know how the woke brain works from the inside.

I suppose you have a black friend who tells you that you aren't a racist as well?

Get the fuck outta here with "I used to be woke."

You display a total ignorance of what it means to be woke. You can't even show us examples of "woke" people, only examples of people bitching about woke people. I have no idea what you think you were, but it sure as hell wasn't "woke" as I have ever known it to be.

I've heard vanishingly few seriously using "woke" as anything but a slur. To me, that's what it is, what it has always been: a slur, farmed from black vernacular originally used as a compliment. It is doubly offensive in this way to hijack the term, but when did that ever stop racists?
 
Top Bottom