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Would you join Satan and 1/3 of the angels?

excreationist

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 28, 2000
Messages
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Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
Say the worst things you've heard about God are true and the best things you've heard about Satan are true. If Satan rebelled against God and as an angel you knew the eventual penalty would be eternal torment would you continue worshipping and serving God or would you join Satan? So in this example the existence of God is a fact.

BTW I think to join Satan based on moral reasoning would involve a greater sacrifice than what Jesus made. After all Jesus only suffered for a few days at the most and it resulted in a permanent difference to the world but you'd be suffering for an eternity to make a temporary difference.
 
No. Maybe Satan's cause would be just, picking a fight with an omnipotent guy isn't a viable way to enact any kind of change.

If I don't want a Walmart going up in my neighbourhood and somebody decides to protest it by going over to the construction site and punching a concrete wall with his fist, I would agree with his end goal but think that his plan to reach that end goal wouldn't be a helpful way to actually achieve it and yet it's infinitely more doable than Satan's idiotic notion.
 
On two other messageboards dozens of people gave their answers - a lot of them said they would rebel...

About the "crimes" of Satan:
http://www.markbeast.com/satan/history-of-satan.htm
....The history of Satan began with riches and honor. Satan had a glorious future. Then he became jealous and proud. He refused to repent and his future became dark....

....Lucifer was above every other angel in heaven. His appearance was beautiful and dazzling. He radiated light and glory. He was covered with gold and shimmering jewels. Lucifer was the Chief Covering angel and he worked in the throne room of God.....

....Over time one third of the angels in heaven chose to side with Lucifer and to worship him instead of Jesus. God made tireless efforts to persuade Lucifer to repent and return to God. Lucifer almost relented, but he would not give up his pride and humble himself. He refused to admit that he was wrong....
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BTW I don't think a lot of that has a lot of Biblical support though many Christians believe it and we could assume it is true for this thread.
 
Tom Sawyer said:
No. Maybe Satan's cause would be just, picking a fight with an omnipotent guy isn't a viable way to enact any kind of change.

If I don't want a Walmart going up in my neighbourhood and somebody decides to protest it by going over to the construction site and punching a concrete wall with his fist, I would agree with his end goal but think that his plan to reach that end goal wouldn't be a helpful way to actually achieve it and yet it's infinitely more doable than Satan's idiotic notion.
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OK, let's suppose it's judgement day. You find out god is in fact the evil, selfish bastard that his own handbook makes him look like. You are given a choice, accept him, or fry forever.

What do you think you would do?
 
dockeen said:
OK, let's suppose it's judgement day. You find out god is in fact the evil, selfish bastard that his own handbook makes him look like. You are given a choice, accept him, or fry forever.

What do you think you would do?
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Accept him. What exactly is the point of frying forever? If someone like that is in charge, the only moral choice is to try and effect a regime change and you're not going to be able to do that while frying in Hell. You can be a selfish and self-centred prick like Satan and let injustice reign over the universe in order to feel good about yourself or take the lesser of two evils and play ball with the tyrant until an opportunity to do something about it presents itself.
 
Tom Sawyer said:
Accept him. What exactly is the point of frying forever? If someone like that is in charge, the only moral choice is to try and effect a regime change and you're not going to be able to do that while frying in Hell. You can be a selfish and self-centred prick like Satan and let injustice reign over the universe in order to feel good about yourself or take the lesser of two evils and play ball with the tyrant until an opportunity to do something about it presents itself.
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An interesting take. If I accepted him, I suspect the reason would be far less noble, complete cowardice.
 
If god can be real in this hypothetical, then so can lightsabers. I would make whichever decision lets me use lightsabers on stuff. Whoosh! Whoosh! Vroom! Whoom!
 
If the god of the bible actually has the characteristics given to him by his followers and revealed through his holy book, what I would want to do is completely and utterly irrelevant. He is omniscient, and I would not be able to fake salvation even if I wanted to do so. In addition, since he is omnipotent, he cannot be beaten. He knows of your plans, and even if you're allowed by him to bring those plans to fruition they will fail.

This is why I don't think the concept of the heavenly war thing with rebellious Satan and his 1/3 angels is anything more than completely vacuous both in terms of scriptural support and logic understandable by any 7 year old. It not only makes the supposedly second most powerful being in the universe a complete imbecile, but also makes God an even more sadistic bastard for forcing everyone to play a game merely so he can show his "glory" at the end. Finally, God can sit there for all eternity basking in his own glory and being praised by a handful of mind-numbed followers. That is the climax of the plot? Call me underwhelmed.
 
braces_for_impact said:
.....He is omniscient, and I would not be able to fake salvation even if I wanted to do so.
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Angels have nothing to do with salvation. According to this story they began with God in Heaven.

According to this:
http://www.markbeast.com/satan/history-of-satan.htm
"Over time one third of the angels in heaven chose to side with Lucifer and to worship him instead of Jesus. God made tireless efforts to persuade Lucifer to repent and return to God. Lucifer almost relented, but he would not give up his pride and humble himself. He refused to admit that he was wrong"

Let's assume it is about the angel's actions, not what thoughts they might have. BTW even saved humans might think bad thoughts about God from time to time but it matters who they sincerely worship.

....This is why I don't think the concept of the heavenly war thing with rebellious Satan and his 1/3 angels is anything more than completely vacuous both in terms of scriptural support and logic understandable by any 7 year old.
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BTW on some other messageboards there are people who said they would rebel against God even if the definite punishment was eternal torment.
So you think there is no scriptural support?
Revelation 12:7 - "Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back."

Matthew 25:41 - "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

It not only makes the supposedly second most powerful being in the universe a complete imbecile...
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Well like I said some people on other messageboards were willing to be eternally tormented for rebelling. And Satan's punishment would be about as severe as other angels so playing the role of Satan - being the leader of the rebellion - would be attractive to them I think.

but also makes God an even more sadistic bastard for forcing everyone to play a game merely so he can show his "glory" at the end.
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Exactly.

Finally, God can sit there for all eternity basking in his own glory and being praised by a handful of mind-numbed followers. That is the climax of the plot? Call me underwhelmed.
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It goes to show whether angels are cowards who want to worship a sadistic bully.
 
excreationist said:
Say the worst things you've heard about God are true and the best things you've heard about Satan are true. If Satan rebelled against God and as an angel you knew the eventual penalty would be eternal torment would you continue worshipping and serving God or would you join Satan? So in this example the existence of God is a fact.

BTW I think to join Satan based on moral reasoning would involve a greater sacrifice than what Jesus made. After all Jesus only suffered for a few days at the most and it resulted in a permanent difference to the world but you'd be suffering for an eternity to make a temporary difference.
Click to expand...
I'd fear and tremble before which ever psychopathic deity I thought was least worst, and hope it didn't notice my fake "worship"...But then it might be more fun to have tea with Q while we are down the rabbit hole.
 
Originally posted by excreationist
Angels have nothing to do with salvation. According to this story they began with God in Heaven.
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Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not saying the angels have anything to do with it. Angels as they are viewed today draw more on the Hellinistic traditions. But this is irrelevant. My point is simply this. You cannot beat an Omniscient & Omnipotent being, and you cannot fake sincerity with such a being in order to get into his heaven. The concept of war, combat or any chance of a successful rebellion is ludicrous.
 
I would attack God with a weapon made out of a square circle which I've attached to a rock that's too big for me to lift, but that I threw at him anyways.

I've calculated that the illogic of the attack would cause a momentary hesitation on his part and offer a 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000003% chance of victory (+/- 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000003%).

Anyone have a better idea?
 
Tom Sawyer said:
I would attack God with a weapon made out of a square circle which I've attached to a rock that's too big for me to lift, but that I threw at him anyways.

I've calculated that the illogic of the attack would cause a momentary hesitation on his part and offer a 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000003% chance of victory (+/- 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000003%).

Anyone have a better idea?
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I think you would be better off to first discover the infinite improbability drive. :biggrina: That way when the Great I-AM tries to zap you with his lightening gun, he gets turned into a sperm whale or just maybe a pot of petunias.
 
excreationist said:
On two other messageboards dozens of people gave their answers - a lot of them said they would rebel...
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Meh, it's easy to say that if you were faced with a terrible evil you would do whatever you could to fight it, no matter the cost to yourself. People want to believe they would do that. Lot's of people say they would.

We plainly live in a world where most of them are lying, though.
 
If everything about God in the Bible were true? I'd build an iron chariot and kick his butt. God can't stand up to iron chariots.
 
The Paul said:
Meh, it's easy to say that if you were faced with a terrible evil you would do whatever you could to fight it, no matter the cost to yourself. People want to believe they would do that. Lot's of people say they would.

We plainly live in a world where most of them are lying, though.
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Very true. This is humanity irregardless of which religion you follow, or none. I'm reminded of a news story from a few years ago where a mentally ill man took over an airplane with some sort of weapon ( I wish I could find it) and threatened Christians. All those people on board that would supposedly never deny the father did on that day. Not one stood up to the hijacker. You point a gun at me and tell me to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, I'll sing and dance a jig if you like while I do so. This won't fool God though.
 
Of course the Books don't make sense as written, but I find that if you take away only two aspects from God as described in the books they suddenly become plausible to me. The first is that the books are all true, and the second is that God isn't really all powerful.

In this situation, God isn't really all that great, he just has a good publicist, certainly his publicist could be better because yikes, he still looks like a jealous, vain, sadistic, asshole, but any publicist who can make a supernatural genocidal egomaniac look appealing to millions of people has definately got some good PR credentials.

Anyway, God isn't all powerful but he is kind of a dick. This totally explains Satan and his rebellion. There's no point in launching a rebellion against an omnipotent entity, but if you can identify a weakness in the tyrant who rules over you then it's all fair game.

I even see Satan's role in Job as a chance to show his angel friends just how sick and twisted and out of touch with "human" morality(justice, equality, benevolence, etc) the big G is.

So "a third" of the angels go off on a rebellion against God probably in pursuit of freedom from God's slavery shackles (Remember they don't have "free will,") and partially because they are standing on moral principals of destroying a disgusting monster.

Of course Satan and his crew might have some fairly dirty attributes too and I'm not entirely convinced that Satan has any real affection toward Human kind at all. He probably only wants himself and his friends to be freed.

So if I'm supposed to pick sides between the devil I know better (God) and the devil I know little of (Satan) with both promising the best interests of humanity should they win and each with decidedly bloodthirsty attributes, I guess I would choose...

Satan
 
If it is the case that the Christian god exists, then it would be objectively morally right to obey the Christian god, so I would probably have to be on god's side. I don't get the whole idea of refusing to serve the ultimate authority of existence- my opinions about morality wouldn't matter whatsoever, god's would. Eternal torture doesn't seem appealing for the sake of rebellion that could never even work, or for any reason. Fortunately the Christian god probably does not exist anyway.
 
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