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Yoga and Fascism

Oleg

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I was looking into the forum considering a post discussing the history of eunuchs in the world and the relationship that has with the common image of the vizier, sorcerer, royal advisor, and thinker that informed the archetype of the "wizard" throughout time.
Do it. That sounds interesting.
 

Jarhyn

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I was looking into the forum considering a post discussing the history of eunuchs in the world and the relationship that has with the common image of the vizier, sorcerer, royal advisor, and thinker that informed the archetype of the "wizard" throughout time.
Do it. That sounds interesting.
The problem is that the Wikipedia article just does a much better job of it than I ever could.

It's seriously an amazing litany of advisors to rulers, assassins of rulers, and rulers, combined with well known mathematicians and statespersons, mostly of the eastern world, a phenomena that seems to stop for unknown reasons, perhaps the same ideology which turned the world against homosexuals for a long time.
 

DrZoidberg

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Next time we want to criticise Saudi Arabia, North Korea, or the Third Reich, just remember: Penile inversion vaginoplasty is done on children in the U.S.
It's also a lie, as far as trans people are concerned. WPATH guidelines indicate the minimum age for vaginoplasty is 18.

The only vaginoplasties in the US performed on folks younger than 18 are done "reconstructively", generally on infants. This is most often performed as an act of barbarism committed by folks trying to "conform" an intersexed genital into a vagina form, or as is described crassly by a TV show with doctors in it echoing dimly from my memory, "it's easier to dig a hole than build a pole."

If I recall, the plot attached to that was in discussion of a person born intersexed who was castrated and mutilated against their will as an infant to conform their genitals to something "normal looking", and then given estrogen because it was easier than explaining why someone with an apparent vagina was to be prescribed testosterone.

In fact the laws that ban hormone modification for kids passing as an effort of the ADF actually have an explicit carve-out so that doctors can still mutilate intersexed kids.

/Derail
My current girlfriend is intersex. She's neither man or woman. She’s explained that they tend to go for presenting as women because they tend to read as women. But she hasn't got the "female machinery" so she can't have kids.

She eats oestrogen to push herself more into being feminine.

Pretty cool.

If she hadn't told me I would never have guessed. She looks and acts very feminine indeed
It's weird. I was looking into the forum considering a post discussing the history of eunuchs in the world and the relationship that has with the common image of the vizier, sorcerer, royal advisor, and thinker that informed the archetype of the "wizard" throughout time.

But then I got distracted by what the fuck yoga had to do with Nazis and it turned out to be an attempt at using revisionist history within the Third Reich to actually commit cultural appropriation, and doubly confused at whatever the fuck GRS could have to do with that, googled whqt they were talking about, as far as to who was recommending surgery so young, and found out that the point itself was a DARVO.
On the topic if archetypes. If I have my symbolism in order the wizard is about gaining power through knowledge and having the ability to change the world because you know stuff others don't. It's sometimes used as a symbol for masculine power not based on physical strength.

This whole thread is a mess
 

aupmanyav

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.. mostly of the eastern world, a phenomena that seems to stop for unknown reasons, perhaps the same ideology which turned the world against homosexuals for a long time.
?? What phenomenon are you talking about? LGBTQ have all the rights and 'Affirmative action' in India.
Indian Supreme Court is discussing marriage for LGBTQ.
 

Jarhyn

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.. mostly of the eastern world, a phenomena that seems to stop for unknown reasons, perhaps the same ideology which turned the world against homosexuals for a long time.
?? What phenomenon are you talking about? LGBTQ have all the rights and 'Affirmative action' in India.
Indian Supreme Court is discussing marriage for LGBTQ.
India's Hijra were largely eliminated in the British imperialism phase, spent some time having a hard time clawing back from that, and they are the only major community with a significant portion of actual eunuchs remaining anywhere in the world.

All over the rest of the eastern world, eunuchs, of many cultures, have vanished.

Further, I wouldn't exactly say that's "all rights" seeing as how, well, the supreme court is "discussing" marriage for them, which implies that's at least some of "all" rights which are missing.

It's nice that India manages to defend the Hijra population today from international religious pressures, but they are the only ones.

The phenomena I am discussing are eunuch communities, specifically, and more specifically, self-made eunuchs.
 

aupmanyav

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India's Hijra were largely eliminated in the British imperialism phase, spent some time having a hard time clawing back from that, and they are the only major community with a significant portion of actual eunuchs remaining anywhere in the world.

Further, I wouldn't exactly say that's "all rights" seeing as how, well, the supreme court is "discussing" marriage for them, which implies that's at least some of "all" rights which are missing. It's nice that India manages to defend the Hijra population today from international religious pressures, but they are the only ones.

The phenomena I am discussing are eunuch communities, specifically, and more specifically, self-made eunuchs.
Eliminated? What is meant by that? Hijras were there before the British, they were here during the British times and they are here even now. They were and still are a part of the Indian society. Which birth, marriage, house warming or shop opening will not include blessings from Hijras.
Yeah, recognition to LGBTQ marriage is the only right denied to them at the moment. We are not worried about their religious views. They may have any - Hindu Muslim, Christian or Sikh. Freedom of religious views is guaranteed by Indian Constitution.
Whether self-made or otherwise, an eunuch is an eunuch.
The right-up misses the first \gay judge of the Delhi High Court.
There is a lot happening in India.
 
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Jarhyn

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Eliminated? What is meant by that?
Went on genocidal pogroms, declared them counter to good order, declared them sexually perverse, declared them ungovernable, and executed as many as they could find, offering death as a penalty for castrating yourself.

British colonialism was a dark time for sexual minorities all over the world, especially eunuchs, and their virulent opposition to such groups was well, virulent in that many governments took up this view despite there being only supportive arguments in their religious source material.
 

aupmanyav

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Went on genocidal pogroms, declared them counter to good order, declared them sexually perverse, declared them ungovernable, and executed as many as they could find, offering death as a penalty for castrating yourself. British colonialism was a dark time for sexual minorities all over the world, especially eunuchs, and their virulent opposition to such groups was well, virulent in that many governments took up this view despite there being only supportive arguments in their religious source material.
Nothing like that ever happened in India. LGBTQ were a distinct and separate part of society and remained like that during the British times too. They had their functions in the society and continued to do that (They asked for their cut when something happy happened in families (Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian) and blessed the families for what all it was worth). They were supported by the society. Their leaders are prosperous and commute in BMWs or Mercedes Benz cars.

"However, there is one thing that happens in every marriage: the arrival of eunuchs and dancing at weddings. They ask for shagun money and then shower the couple with their blessings. Their blessings are considered to bring good luck, love, and prosperity."

They visited us after my marriage, at the time of the birth of our children, their marriages, and the birth of their children and were satisfactorily propriated (of course, that involves some haggling, they ask for more and we try to pay less). :)

They were given Rs. 22,000, when they came to bless Indian actors, Ranbir Kapoor (grandson of Raj Kapoor) and Alia Bhatt on the occasion of their marriage. I think that was miserly. They should have been given a round figure - Rs. 50,000. They must have asked for that.
 

Jarhyn

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Went on genocidal pogroms, declared them counter to good order, declared them sexually perverse, declared them ungovernable, and executed as many as they could find, offering death as a penalty for castrating yourself. British colonialism was a dark time for sexual minorities all over the world, especially eunuchs, and their virulent opposition to such groups was well, virulent in that many governments took up this view despite there being only supportive arguments in their religious source material.
Nothing like that ever happened in India. LGBTQ were a distinct and separate part of society and remained like that during the British times too. They had their functions in the society and continued to do that (They asked for their cut when something happy happened in families (Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian) and blessed the families for what all it was worth). They were supported by the society. Their leaders are prosperous and commute in BMWs or Mercedes Benz cars.

"However, there is one thing that happens in every marriage: the arrival of eunuchs and dancing at weddings. They ask for shagun money and then shower the couple with their blessings. Their blessings are considered to bring good luck, love, and prosperity."

They visited us after my marriage, at the time of the birth of our children, their marriages, and the birth of their children and were satisfactorily propriated (of course, that involves some haggling, they ask for more and we try to pay less). :)

They were given Rs. 22,000, when they came to bless Indian actors, Ranbir Kapoor (grandson of Raj Kapoor) and Alia Bhatt on the occasion of their marriage. I think that was miserly. They should have been given a round figure - Rs. 50,000. They must have asked for that.
I read something very different to your claim when researching the history of the Hijra in India.

The history I read said the British were not kind under their rule to the Hijra.
 

aupmanyav

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Sure, some writer may have said something else. There were laws against homosexuality which police would use against Hijras. That was if the police did not get their cut out of the earnings of Hijras. The police had their own compulsions. Police had to give part of their cut to their officers, and after independence, the officers have to give a part of their cut to politicians otherwise how the politicians will contest their elections. Otherwise the police officials or lower ranks could be transferred to places where there were less or no unofficial earnings. Police postings depend on what is given to politicians. Places where the unofficial incomes are high demand bigger payments. You see, the 'cut system' runs deep in India even now, though lesser in Prime Minister Modi's time than previously.
Of course, the laws against LGBTQ have now been repealed.
 

Jarhyn

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Sure, some writer may have said something else. There were laws against homosexuality which police would use against Hijras. That was if the police did not get their cut out of the earnings of Hijras. The police had their own compulsions. Police had to give part of their cut to their officers, and after independence, the officers have to give a part of their cut to politicians otherwise how the politicians will contest their elections. Otherwise the police officials or lower ranks could be transferred to places where there were less or no unofficial earnings. Police postings depend on what is given to politicians. Places where the unofficial incomes are high demand bigger payments. You see, the 'cut system' runs deep in India even now, though lesser in Prime Minister Modi's time than previously.
Of course, the laws against LGBTQ have now been repealed.
More, during that time, the British deemed Hijra "ungovernable" and took measures to do to them what they did to every subculture they failed to understand or accept across their empire.


This is a 2019 article that discusses more about the part of history I've been reading about.

The period discussed was a very bad time for eunuchs, and not just the Indian Hijra. They took similar measures against such minorities everywhere.
 

robnisch

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Again WTF does this have to do with the OP?
It's like a conversation in a bar with a bunch of stoned people.
 

aupmanyav

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The article does not indicate any persecution of Hijras. Of course, local persecution by police for not giving the 'dasturi' (tradition, monthly payment for not interfering with their ways) continued everywhere as it is even now. What police want is their cut and sometimes sex.
 

Jarhyn

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The article does not indicate any persecution of Hijras. Of course, local persecution by police for not giving the 'dasturi' (tradition, monthly payment for not interfering with their ways) continued everywhere as it is even now. What police want is their cut and sometimes sex.
State policies became punitive in 1864 under the colonial rule. These policies were subsequently reversed by the removal of IPC S377 in 2018. However, the legacy of colonial rule is not simply undone by the striking down of this law. A Transgender Bill introduced in 2016, which has not yet been passed by the Upper House of Parliament, threatens to mark a U-turn from progressive judgments and the much awaited removal of S377. This Bill, which attempted to prohibit discrimination against transgender people, has faced much criticism and failed to reach consensus in Parliament. Due to the shortcomings of the proposed Transgender Bill, the legal success of two landmark cases handed down by the Supreme Court in 2014 and 2018 fail to be translated into concrete policies.

Criminalisation through a Foucauldian lens

After a rebellion challenged the British colonial rule in 1857, S377 of the IPC served as a political tool to reassert colonial authority, especially over what it considered to be a ‘deviant’ group within society (Reddy, 2010). While the hijras have been part of South Asia for thousands of years, their identity stood starkly at odds with Western morality and their conception of gender. Historically, pre-colonial India demonstrated a culture open to sexual fluidity that can be traced back to 5th century Jain religious literary tradition (Benton, 2002), as well as to ancient Sanskrit texts such as Vatsyayana Kamasutram (8th BCE), the Sufist tradition of erotic poetry known as Rheki (13th CE), and the Mughal erotic canon (17th CE).

The body policing as well as its medicalisation imposed by colonial rule pathologised all non-heteronormative behaviours. According to Foucault, bodies are controlled through discipline over centuries, by repressing and silencing sexuality (Foucault cited in Young, 1995). The colonial state asserted control over hijras through constructing knowledge about them as deviant in order to criminalise them as a group.
 

aupmanyav

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Old News. Now all the rules are in place and the Supreme Court guards them (except for the marriage rule, which is not accepted by the Government). Supreme Court cannot do much in that case, except convey its views to the Government on the matter. The rules have to be made by the Indian Parliament.
 
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