God and evil

[BH]

It is argued by religious believers that you have no moral standard to follow if a god does not exist to give you one.

If you have no moral standard without a god to give you one how do you know the moral standard given by the god is in fact from the god and that you have not been deceived by a demon or devil like figure giving you a false moral standard?

 

[ideologyhunter]

Right. Because Satan is not only supernatural and endowed with power and agency, but he is the Great Deceiver.
So maybe believers can examine their scripture and go with the figure who does not ever command them to harm others?
On second thought... a better verification is needed.

 

[Elixir]

It is argued by religious believers that you have no moral standard to follow if a god does not exist to give you one.

If you have no moral standard without a god to give you one how do you know the moral standard given by the god is in fact from the god and that you have not been deceived by a demon or devil like figure giving you a false moral standard?

Well, you have to rely on some fallible human who claims to be channeling a god, or has degrees for “studying” gods (theology), because those are the only people who really know what you need to do to avoid eternal torture.

 

[BH]

The thing is is that all the great religions have a devil or devil like figure.

Christians will claim other religions are from Satan but how do they know for sure? Christianity could be of a devil for all we know.

What objective standard exists to tell?

 

[LoAmmo]

It is argued by religious believers [snip]

(Car mechanic’s voice):
“I see your problem, right there.”

 

[steve_bank]

Buddhism which may or may not be considered a religion puts good and evil within the human mind.

 

[DBT]

The harsh realities of nature and environment produces suffering, predation, disease, misfortune, deliberate cruelty, etc, which may be the source of our perception of evil and as in Genesis and the Fall narrative, our explanations for the existence of evil.

 

[Jarhyn]

It is argued by religious believers that you have no moral standard to follow if a god does not exist to give you one.

If you have no moral standard without a god to give you one how do you know the moral standard given by the god is in fact from the god and that you have not been deceived by a demon or devil like figure giving you a false moral standard?

Well, you have to rely on some fallible human who claims to be channeling a god, or has degrees for “studying” gods (theology), because those are the only people who really know what you need to do to avoid eternal torture.

Hell, I have studied the very idea of God for over 37 years, and I say the thing you need to do to avoid eternal torture are "be an atheist".

Ain't no "god' gonna take someone out of their simulation "bottle" who isn't going to accept that "gods" can be just like us: imperfect schlubs. Otherwise, it's a great recipe for "apocalypse at the hands of our creations".

 

[Learner]

It is argued by religious believers that you have no moral standard to follow if a god does not exist to give you one.

The idea that religious believers argue moral standards that relates to God, usually concerns the views between the 'objective standard i.e. God's word is the universal standard, and the subjective' standard i.e. without God the moral standards vary between a variety of people.

If you have no moral standard without a god to give you one how do you know the moral standard given by the god is in fact from the god and that you have not been deceived by a demon or devil like figure giving you a false moral standard?

Biblically... it's written in our hearts i.e. the conscience.. love & compassion etc. Even with non-Christians, as exampled by the compassion of the kind Samaritan...there are moral standards like that, that God would command. It's not of interest to everyone, unfortunately.

 

[BH]

Hi Learner,

Yes, I understand religious believers think Gods standard is objective. My question is if God is not himself subject to a standard that is objective and apart from himself how do you know you have not been deceived by a devil or demon and tricked into following a false standard?

 

[TomC]

The idea that religious believers argue moral standards that relates to God, usually concerns the views between the 'objective standard i.e. God's word is the universal standard, and the subjective' standard i.e. without God the moral standards vary between a variety of people.

I'm pretty sure that what BH is pointing out is that there is no moral standard more variable or loose than the one presented by religious folks.

People can pick and choose behavior that suits them, for whatever reason, then explain why it's morally good starting with "God says...".
Tom

 

[Elixir]

without God the moral standards vary between a variety of people.

WITH God, moral standards vary between people. So much for “objective”!

 

[TomC]

Biblically... it's written in our hearts i.e. the conscience.. love & compassion etc. Even with non-Christians, as exampled by the compassion of the kind Samaritan...there are moral standards like that, that God would command. It's not of interest to everyone, unfortunately.

I've read the Bible.
That's not written in our hearts.
We must escape the primitive ethics and morality of the ancient people who claim to speak for God in the Bible in order to have a moral world with sophisticated ethics.
Otherwise we're back in the good old days of slavery and genocide and bigotry and The Divine Right of Kings.

I'm not the least bit willing to return to those "good old days", because I think Scriptural morality is abhorrent.
Tom

 

[Learner]

without God the moral standards vary between a variety of people.

WITH God, moral standards vary between people. So much for “objective”!

If it is your will to follow close to the 'objective' as possible, just do the best you can Elixir, just do the best you can.

 

[Elixir]

If it is your will to follow close to the 'objective'

I have no idea what that’s even supposed to mean. I’m just pointing out that religiosity doesn’t in any way imply objectivity-especially as applies to morality or ethics.

just do the best you can Elixir

Never bad advice. Useless, but not bad.

 

[Learner]

Hi Learner,

Yes, I understand religious believers think Gods standard is objective.

Sorry BH, yes of course you'd know that.

My question is if God is not himself subject to a standard that is objective and apart from himself how do you know you have not been deceived by a devil or demon and tricked into following a false standard?

My view as Christian may be a short and simple explanation (while my guest is making tea). I take from examples like the verse below, Matthew 7 : 15 -16 which in relation to the teaching of the gospels which is to be taught and spread through the prophets, preachers and teachers throughout the world etc.:

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits.


What I find interesting is that not only do Christians point out false preaching done by other Christians who contradict the bible but also... I have seen atheists and Muslim's point them out too. There is a universal understanding to some extent at least when regarding Jesus, comparing many behavioral attributes of Christians that don't measure decently enough to the Christ-like image attributes. You will know them by their fruit.

Coinciding with the above verses not Christ-like - its through the false prophets who are to be watched :

1 John 4:1
4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1 Timothy 4:1
Some Will Depart from the Faith
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

1 Timothy 6: 3-5
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

 

[Learner]

If it is your will to follow close to the 'objective'

I have no idea what that’s even supposed to mean. I’m just pointing out that religiosity doesn’t in any way imply objectivity-especially as applies to morality or ethics.

I see, you have no idea, but you put earlier "WITH God, moral standards vary between people [..]”!"

You not saying anything different to when I said that "without God moral standards would vary [..] So to state the obvious... both lines in bold imply people having their own moral standards, hence variations wouldn't be objective.

just do the best you can Elixir

Never bad advice. Useless, but not bad.

Keep it up

 

[Elixir]

you put earlier "WITH God, moral standards vary between people [..]”!"

You not saying anything different to when I said that "without God moral standards would vary [..]

That’s pretty atheistic isn’t it?
Unless your statement was meant to be superfluous. Why point out something that is common to both as if it was a difference?

I’m getting that you’re saying the real benefit of a god is that it guarantees varying moral standards, and otherwise is a nonfactor?
Perhaps you meant to say, “with or without God, moral standards vary”
Moral standards vary between people, period, and religions only exacerbate it.

 

[BH]

Hi Learner,

Yes, I understand religious believers think Gods standard is objective.

Sorry BH, yes of course you'd know that.

My question is if God is not himself subject to a standard that is objective and apart from himself how do you know you have not been deceived by a devil or demon and tricked into following a false standard?

My view as Christian may be a short and simple explanation (while my guest is making tea). I take from examples like the verse below, Matthew 7 : 15 -16 which in relation to the teaching of the gospels which is to be taught and spread through the prophets, preachers and teachers throughout the world etc.:

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits.


What I find interesting is that not only do Christians point out false preaching done by other Christians who contradict the bible but also... I have seen atheists and Muslim's point them out too. There is a universal understanding to some extent at least when regarding Jesus, comparing many behavioral attributes of Christians that don't measure decently enough to the Christ-like image attributes. You will know them by their fruit.

Coinciding with the above verses not Christ-like - its through the false prophets who are to be watched :

1 John 4:1
4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1 Timothy 4:1
Some Will Depart from the Faith
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

1 Timothy 6: 3-5
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

If I understand you right Learner, and please correct me if I am wrong, you do seem to believe there is a moral standard that even God is bound to and subject to then. If the way to tell the difference between the doctrine of God and the doctrine of a demon in religion is whether the teaching has good fruit or not then that means that the fruitfulness of the doctrine (to benefit people overall) is an objective standard that even God is bound by.

 

[Elixir]

the fruitfulness of the doctrine (to benefit people believers overall) is an objective standard that even every God is bound by.

FIFY
If you’re not a believer, you can burn in whatever passes for Hell for that particular god.