The Illusion of Moral Decline

[bilby]

That is a tired cliche.

Anyone who thinks there has not been a cultural turn to the worse and has lived in prior times is either just pain ignorant with head in the hole, or is not paying attention.

Young people today do not know what it was like before the rising level of violence and growing mental and physical health problems. Before the normalization of drugs.

Seriously, this is a rationalist discussion board; You can't expect to be taken seriously here if you demand, on the basis of anecdotal evidence, that your personal beliefs are a better description of reality than a properly conducted, peer reviewed, and unequivocal scientific study published in a highly respected and reputable journal.

You are, in every sense that should matter to anyone whose epistemology is even vaguely functional, wrong.

And unless and until you present some good quality evidence, in place of arguments from geriatric nostalgia, you will remain wrong.

And you are wrong in exactly the ways that the paper in the OP explained that most people are wrong. So did you not bother to read it, or did you just reject it out of hand as contradictory to your personal biases?

 

[bilby]

Of course, @steve_bank likely can't even see my criticism of his position:

I have Bilby om ignore for two reasons. He resorts to insults and ad homs. In the past I found he was arguing from science fiction on an issue.

And he doubles down on his poor epistemology in his "reasons"; Insults and ad homs are a breach of the Terms of Use of the board, and if he believes me to routinely use them, the appropriate action would be to report them and thereby either force me to desist, or cause me to be banned. His (and others') failure to do so suggests that he knows that this isn't true - I resort to insulting, ridiculing, and attacking bad arguments as a matter of routine, but the fact that I am still here shows that I don't make personal attacks or insults a routine part of my behaviour.

As to arguing from science fiction, this is simply a misunderstanding on his part, and as far as I can tell, a misunderstanding of a single post.

 

[James Brown]

That is a tired cliche.

Anyone who thinks there has not been a cultural turn to the worse and has lived in prior times is either just pain ignorant with head in the hole, or is not paying attention.

Young people today do not know what it was like before the rising level of violence and growing mental and physical health problems. Before the normalization of drugs.

Seriously, this is a rationalist discussion board; You can't expect to be taken seriously here if you demand, on the basis of anecdotal evidence, that your personal beliefs are a better description of reality than a properly conducted, peer reviewed, and unequivocal scientific study published in a highly respected and reputable journal.

You are, in every sense that should matter to anyone whose epistemology is even vaguely functional, wrong.

And unless and until you present some good quality evidence, in place of arguments from geriatric nostalgia, you will remain wrong.

And you are wrong in exactly the ways that the paper in the OP explained that most people are wrong. So did you not bother to read it, or did you just reject it out of hand as contradictory to your personal biases?

Everyone knows that kids--or rather, young people today--don't know how terrible everything is.

Which, if true, would be an indictment of old people today not doing their jobs in educating young people about history.

 

[bigfield]

That is a tired cliche.

Anyone who thinks there has not been a cultural turn to the worse and has lived in prior times is either just pain ignorant with head in the hole, or is not paying attention.

Young people today do not know what it was like before the rising level of violence and growing mental and physical health problems. Before the normalization of drugs.

^^ "Kids these days".

 

[lostone]

That crop of kids in 624 BC were as morally declined as one can get

 

[Bronzeage]

The Department of Unsupported Anecdotal Evidence reports that a casual reading of popular magazines of the late 1920s up to Dec 10. 1941, will reveal there was great apprehension about America's capability to fight a major war. Periodicals such as the Saturday Evening Post had many articles bemoaning the condition of the day's youth. It was all the same stuff, lazy, hedonistic, etc. They certainly were a decline from the men sent to France in 1917.

Of course, in hindsight we now call them the "Greatest Generation", so it just goes to show, you never know.

 

[southernhybrid]

I read the short version of the piece in the OP and I agree that things, as described in the piece are not getting worse. In fact, at least where I live, when it comes to common courtesy, honesty and things like that, things have gotten better over the past 25 years. My city is almost 50/50 black to white. When I moved here, the first black family to move into my neighborhood was greeted with nasty racist shit written on the front of the house, which I think was a rental at the time.

In 2003, my first black home owner neighbor moved two doors down from me, a lovely woman who is also an RN. As the years passed, almost every area of town has become more racially integrated, so I now have many black neighbors, most are professionals, retired or skilled workers. People all seem to get along well, despite our political differences. Many of my neighbors aren't religious, are "Nones", cultural Christians or church goers who never preach to anyone. Our local atheist group was started by a former neighbor of mine. He and his very religious mom were very close, and loving, despite their different beliefs.

Our senior center is a wonderful place where friendships develop and people of different educational backgrounds, racial backgrounds, etc. respect each other. I've made a few friends there, including a couple who I consider close friends. One evangelical tried to convert me because she thinks that non believers are going to hell, which made me a bit angry, but I know she meant well. She's just been brainwashed into believing nonsense. Still, I told her I thought she's a good person and that's all that matters to me. Hopefully people like her will meet more people who are non believers and come to terms with the fact that most of us are decent people, and it's silly to believe in a god who punishes people for not believing that he's their savior.

I don't hear gun shots, although I'm sure that a high percentage of residents own guns. It's illegal to shoot inside our city limits.

On the negative side, a large group of young gang members were recently arrested, after an investigation that lasted several years. I'm sure that the good people in that area are pleased not to have to worry about that as much now. But, gangs have been around for pretty much ever, even if they were very different from today's gangs. It's a way for criminals to take advantage of young boys who lack good family support, who live in poverty etc. It gives these boys a feeling of belonging. That's nothing new. It's sad. Maybe we, as a society need to work harder to see that all children have adequate housing, food, parental support etc.

I would agree that things are worse for gay and trans folks, depending on where they live. But, during my childhood, people who identified as gay or trans were deep in the closet. So, while things have taken a turn for the worse for those individuals, hopefully, that will change as younger generations realize there is nothing wrong with being yourself, even if you are a bit different from the majority. I have gay friends here who seem happy too, but then they are part of our little atheist group, so why wouldn't they be happy.

I've lived in the South for most of my adult life and I've seen a lot of progress when it comes to race relations. I've even had a fewl Trump supporters as casual friends. We are kind to each other and simply avoid discussing politics or religion. They know I don't share their view points but we try and look for the better aspects of character instead of concentrating on our differences. At least a few of my neighbors had Trump signs out in 2020, while a few of us had Biden signs out. No problem. We all respected each others right to free speech. Unfortunately, the media loves to concentrate on the negatives most of the time, and there is too much propaganda aimed at people who are easily manipulated. I grew up in the "love it or leave it" 60s. When we protested the Viet Nam War, there were angry conservatives screaming at us. How is that any better than what goes on today?

So, while it's not perfect, I can't say that it's any worse than any other time in my life. I find most people here are friendly and much to my delight, I've been treated respectfully as I've become older, even by most young. people. Maybe I just found the right place for me to live. That may be my anecdotal experience, but I've lived in 7 different states in the US and I don't remember it being better in the past than it is today, when it comes to how most people treat each other, which was the point being made in the piece in the OP.

 

[abaddon]

There's been a lot of progress.

It's hard to see it when you watch the news, since the focus is bad news.

It's also hard to tell, when reading a post earlier in this thread that used mental health as an example of moral decline. Yes, there's worsening anxiety and depression issues. But the only relevance to morality is if some/many people still see mental illness as a kind of moral failure. As if they're lazy or weak and haven't "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps".

So if there's moral decline it's among conservatives. But probably they've always been the garbage half of humanity.

The progress I see is due to my interest in environmental ethics. A study of this subject reveals how much our circle of moral regard has widened -- from accepting that slaves are actually as fully human as the rest of us, to eventually extending that to women as well. In the past few decades we're at least discussing human chauvinism against animal life. There's also a "rights of nature" movement. Feminism has been a major contributor irt "Care Ethics". We have a long way to go, but now that animal and ecosystem rights are increasingly part of the discussion, that's moral progress not decline!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In 2003, my first black home owner neighbor moved two doors down from me, a lovely woman who is also an RN. As the years passed, almost every area of town has become more racially integrated, so I now have many black neighbors, most are professionals, retired or skilled workers. People all seem to get along well, despite our political differences. Many of my neighbors aren't religious, are "Nones", cultural Christians or church goers who never preach to anyone. Our local atheist group was started by a former neighbor of mine. He and his very religious mom were very close, and loving, despite their different beliefs.

Strangely, our neighborhood is getting less integrated. Most of the original purchasers have moved on and the replacements have been a lot whiter than the originals. AFIAK our block is now entirely white or Asian and I think all the Asians are Chinese.

 

[BH]

Is it so much morality has declined as it is people's ideas about what is moral has changed?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

so Nature has published a serious analysis of people’s perceptions of moral decline. It seems that about 77 - 78% of people think that we are undergoing moral decline, and that this perception has persisted for decades. It’s the same percentage in 1949 and 2019. I believe that the emperor Hadrian made a similar comment to Pliny the younger.

I've often wondered when things weren't like this. When was the lost, golden age?

Of course morality has declined if you define it as society’s acceptance of human sexual behavior. We no longer care that much if people have pre marital sex, or are gay. And gay relationships are legal now, heaven forbid!

Don't forget the modern horrors of women, LGBTQ, the disabled, and ethnic minorities working in jobs they used to be barred from. And who cannot pine for the times when Hitler and Stalin murdered millions of people.

There’s also less church attendance than before. maybe that’s what people mean though.

That's definitely a step in the wrong direction for all those whose income depends on a large, generous flock. So yes, church employees would bemoan modern morality.

what the study though tried to look at was generally how well people treated each other, I.e. kindness, respect, etc. Of course there is no such general decline. And since a lot of violent crime has declined, we are actually treating each other better. Even violent war has declined over the decades, Putin not withstanding.

You may wish to read The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined by Steven Pinker. He makes a good case that the world's morality is getting better rather than worse.

As I see it, those who say that we're getting worse morally don't know history. They base their belief in declining morality on their worsening personal problems and often on their religious beliefs. Religions like Christianity teach people to look forward to an impending apocalypse. We need to get evil for that to happen.

Anyway, all these developments notwithstanding, it's too soon to celebrate. We have a long way to go until we achieve a truly open, truth-respecting, and just civilization. I think we need more free dialog where everybody gets to put their cards on the table and criticize all those who twist the truth to violate the opportunities of others. And that goes for everybody from former presidents to forum residents.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I just came in from a walk. There were gunshots within a few hundred feet. Others heard it.

This kind of grwing violence anda lack of empathy for fellow human beings if not a decline in morality then what shoud I call it?

You should call it a "hasty generalization fallacy." According to Schaum's Outline of Logic, 2nd Edition, page 311, a hasty generalization is the act of "fallaciously inferring a statement about an entire class of things on the basis of some of its members." In your case you inferred that there is a "lack of empathy for fellow human beings" based on one walk you made. Of course, your conclusion ignores all the empathy that other people demonstrate. I should also add that there's nothing new about shootings, so to conclude that the shooting you heard is something new ignores history.

So there we have another example of my sound reasoning. I will surely pay for it! LOL