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The US National Popular Vote is a little bit closer

IIRC, 2016 was the largest gap in popular vote that went the other way on EC... and that one's a bit strange. Clinton won the overall popular vote by a fair bit less than she won California.

Maybe so, I dunno.
While we're drawing irrelevant pictures, she won by more than the total number of eligible voters in our first elections.

Because the Founding Fathers didn't care about the People. They didn't care about equal rights for all. They were all about securing the wealth and privileges of the WASP male elite.
Tom
 
But unless “conservative identification” is synonymous with “enthusiasm for fascism”
I think it has largely been for a few years now. There are only two kinds of people who could support a Trump led GOP: Enthusiastic fascists, and people who are utterly clueless.

Perhaps I am making too many charitable assumptions about the level of utter cluelessness in America; Maybe all this "conservative identification" is nothing more unpleasant than common or garden cluelessness writ large. Maybe fascism has always depended more on cluelessness than on enthusiasm. But in a democracy, I am underconvinced that that's an excuse.
THE OTHER PARTY IS EVIL!!!! THEY'RE BAD!!!!! THEY NEED TO BE ELIMINATED!!!!!
Accusing someone of criminal behaviour isn't unreasonable when they are engaging in criminal behaviour; This remains true even in an environment where people habitually make unreasonable accusations against non-criminals.
You're not accusing an individual of criminal behavior though. You're denigrating all republicans as being either evil fascists or clueless morons, with no in between and no nuance. You're decided that all conservatives love Trump, and that anyone who prefers Trump to Biden for any reason at all is either evil or dumb.

I stand by my characterization of your post as tribalistic nonsense.
There are only two kinds of people who could support a Trump led GOP

I would suggest that I am very much discussing an individual of criminal behaviour, specifically Individual A.

Anyone who continues to support the GOP when it is obviously completely dominated by this individual is either an enthusiastic fascist, or clueless (at the very least regarding his degree of dominance in the party).

Your counterfactual mischaracterisation of my post doesn't change these obvious facts.
 
5 times in 200 years. Normally that would not be considered a terrible common occurrence.

Did you mean to say 5 times in 59 elections?

That is indeed far TOO common an occurance.

What's more important to me is 5 times over 250 years, but 2 of them were in the last couple of decades.
It's the trend, not the totality.
Tom
2 elections in the period 1876 - 1888 (12 years) and 2 elections in period 2000-2016 (16 years).
2 clusters of similar duration separated by 112 years.
The clustering certainly bearing investigation.
What caused first cluster and what caused the 2nd cluster?
 
But unless “conservative identification” is synonymous with “enthusiasm for fascism”
I think it has largely been for a few years now. There are only two kinds of people who could support a Trump led GOP: Enthusiastic fascists, and people who are utterly clueless.

Perhaps I am making too many charitable assumptions about the level of utter cluelessness in America; Maybe all this "conservative identification" is nothing more unpleasant than common or garden cluelessness writ large. Maybe fascism has always depended more on cluelessness than on enthusiasm. But in a democracy, I am underconvinced that that's an excuse.
THE OTHER PARTY IS EVIL!!!! THEY'RE BAD!!!!! THEY NEED TO BE ELIMINATED!!!!!
Accusing someone of criminal behaviour isn't unreasonable when they are engaging in criminal behaviour; This remains true even in an environment where people habitually make unreasonable accusations against non-criminals.
“WHOOOSH!!!”
That principle seems to have been lost on a lot of Republicans.
 
And a large chunk of those loyalists founded... Canada.
What?

Some may have fled, but they did not found Canada. What are you talking about?
Tom
IIRC, part of where we ended up drawing the line for what constituted the US was based on where the loyalists were. Of course that's oversimplifying it. But the very short version is that a fair number of people in the very north stayed loyal, and they didn't become part of the US. They became Canada :)
 
But unless “conservative identification” is synonymous with “enthusiasm for fascism”
I think it has largely been for a few years now. There are only two kinds of people who could support a Trump led GOP: Enthusiastic fascists, and people who are utterly clueless.

Perhaps I am making too many charitable assumptions about the level of utter cluelessness in America; Maybe all this "conservative identification" is nothing more unpleasant than common or garden cluelessness writ large. Maybe fascism has always depended more on cluelessness than on enthusiasm. But in a democracy, I am underconvinced that that's an excuse.
THE OTHER PARTY IS EVIL!!!! THEY'RE BAD!!!!! THEY NEED TO BE ELIMINATED!!!!!
Accusing someone of criminal behaviour isn't unreasonable when they are engaging in criminal behaviour; This remains true even in an environment where people habitually make unreasonable accusations against non-criminals.
You're not accusing an individual of criminal behavior though. You're denigrating all republicans as being either evil fascists or clueless morons, with no in between and no nuance. You're decided that all conservatives love Trump, and that anyone who prefers Trump to Biden for any reason at all is either evil or dumb.

I stand by my characterization of your post as tribalistic nonsense.
There are only two kinds of people who could support a Trump led GOP

I would suggest that I am very much discussing an individual of criminal behaviour, specifically Individual A.

Anyone who continues to support the GOP when it is obviously completely dominated by this individual is either an enthusiastic fascist, or clueless (at the very least regarding his degree of dominance in the party).

Your counterfactual mischaracterisation of my post doesn't change these obvious facts.
Nah, you're still being uncharitably tribalistic. You haven't given any wiggle room at all for people who are republican but dislike Trump. I suppose you give them the wiggle room of not being considered completely idiotic evil bastards if they vote for a Democrat... but that's really just reinforcing the problem.

It used to be that we worried about "If you're not with us, then you're against us" which was already bad enough as it denigrated bystanders. But now it's "If you're not with us, then you're with THOSE EVIL PEOPLE!!!!" and it actively assigns "the other" to a role of simultaneously being evil fascists and being ignorant dumbasses. At no point are you even bothering to consider that people might have more nuanced views and values that play into them not being a democrat.
 
5 times in 200 years. Normally that would not be considered a terrible common occurrence.

Did you mean to say 5 times in 59 elections?

That is indeed far TOO common an occurance.

What's more important to me is 5 times over 250 years, but 2 of them were in the last couple of decades.
It's the trend, not the totality.
Tom
2 elections in the period 1876 - 1888 (12 years) and 2 elections in period 2000-2016 (16 years).
2 clusters of similar duration separated by 112 years.
The clustering certainly bearing investigation.
What caused first cluster and what caused the 2nd cluster?
Significant social discord and division on a lot of topics, including policy. It's indicative of parties playing exclusively to divisive concepts, and working solely for the benefit of their supporters rather than genuinely trying to find a solution that works for all citizens.
 

It used to be that we worried about "If you're not with us, then you're against us" which was already bad enough as it denigrated bystanders. But now it's "If you're not with us, then you're with THOSE EVIL PEOPLE!!!!"
That would be a problem, except for the fact that if you vote Republican, you're with THOSE EVIL PEOPLE!!!!"
I thought Dick Nixon and the Bush Baby were evil, but would not have said that about their voters. The current Republican party is different: their leadership actually wants to destroy American democracy. In my book, that puts their supporters in a whole other category.
 
That would be a problem, except for the fact that if you vote Republican, you're with THOSE EVIL PEOPLE!!!!"
I thought Dick Nixon and the Bush Baby were evil, but would not have said that about their voters. The current Republican party is different: their leadership actually wants to destroy American democracy. In my book, that puts their supporters in a whole other category.
So sayeth Torquemada: Convert or burn.
 
That would be a problem, except for the fact that if you vote Republican, you're with THOSE EVIL PEOPLE!!!!"
I thought Dick Nixon and the Bush Baby were evil, but would not have said that about their voters. The current Republican party is different: their leadership actually wants to destroy American democracy. In my book, that puts their supporters in a whole other category.
So sayeth Torquemada: Convert or burn.
You can't convert fascists. It's better to burn them.
 
That would be a problem, except for the fact that if you vote Republican, you're with THOSE EVIL PEOPLE!!!!"
I thought Dick Nixon and the Bush Baby were evil, but would not have said that about their voters. The current Republican party is different: their leadership actually wants to destroy American democracy. In my book, that puts their supporters in a whole other category.
So sayeth Torquemada: Convert or burn.
You can't convert fascists. It's better to burn them.
There may be some truth in that. But I ain't torching anybody, period.

If humans have learned anything in the last 90 years, or the last six years or the last two and a half years, the fascists will be voted out.
If not, then let there be fascists, I suppose. If people are frogs who need cruel and stupid kings, our system lets them have that.

Emily said:
So sayeth Torquemada: Convert or burn.
Ya see, here's the diff: I say they're evil, and you take that as a threat. It is not.
It's almost analogous to the difference between saying trump is arrested for apparent (to a grand jury) crimes xyz, and saying "If I'm elected I am going to arrest the entire Biden Family!" I am only saying they're evil and Republican voters are with them. You take that as a threat of torture, which is very telling.
THEY are saying KILL THE LIBS!
 
At no point are you even bothering to consider that people might have more nuanced views and values that play into them not being a democrat.
Not being a Democrat is a fine and noble position. I'm not a Democrat.

Being a Republican isn't just "not being a Democrat" though. Today, being a Republican means not being a democrat, as well as merely not being a Democrat.
 
At no point are you even bothering to consider that people might have more nuanced views and values that play into them not being a democrat.
Not being a Democrat is a fine and noble position. I'm not a Democrat.

Being a Republican isn't just "not being a Democrat" though. Today, being a Republican means not being a democrat, as well as merely not being a Democrat.

In America, individuals typically align with the political party that most closely embodies their core values and preferred policies. It's intriguing to learn that lately in your country, the selection of political affiliation is driven more by dissociation from the opposing party than by alignment with specific values or policies. :rolleyes:
 
At no point are you even bothering to consider that people might have more nuanced views and values that play into them not being a democrat.
Is that “you” supposed to be singular or plural?

I’m not a Democrat and I have my reasons.
I am vilifying Republicans because they have sold out to a criminal mob boss. Do I need a “more nuanced view”? I don’t think so, but am willing to listen to a reasoned argument to the contrary. What I will not honor, is any attempt to falsely equivocate my disdain for those who signed up to promote fascism under the Republican banner, with those advocating for a violent overthrow of the entire American democratic system.
Saying they’re evil is just a statement of fact as I perceive it. Saying I am acting in a manner comparable to Torquemada for expressing my view, is either stunningly mistaken or disappointingly dishonest.
Which is it? Or do you owe me (us) a retraction?
 
That would be a problem, except for the fact that if you vote Republican, you're with THOSE EVIL PEOPLE!!!!"
I thought Dick Nixon and the Bush Baby were evil, but would not have said that about their voters. The current Republican party is different: their leadership actually wants to destroy American democracy. In my book, that puts their supporters in a whole other category.
So sayeth Torquemada: Convert or burn.
You can't convert fascists. It's better to burn them.
There may be some truth in that. But I ain't torching anybody, period.

If humans have learned anything in the last 90 years, or the last six years or the last two and a half years, the fascists will be voted out.
If not, then let there be fascists, I suppose. If people are frogs who need cruel and stupid kings, our system lets them have that.

Emily said:
So sayeth Torquemada: Convert or burn.
Ya see, here's the diff: I say they're evil, and you take that as a threat. It is not.
It's almost analogous to the difference between saying trump is arrested for apparent (to a grand jury) crimes xyz, and saying "If I'm elected I am going to arrest the entire Biden Family!" I am only saying they're evil and Republican voters are with them. You take that as a threat of torture, which is very telling.
THEY are saying KILL THE LIBS!
I don’t see ( most of) them as evil. Maybe because I have known so many for so long.

Some are single issue voters: The GOP says they are anti-abortion and they are willing to endure a lot of the other crap in order to ‘protect the unborn.’

A whole bunch simply identify themselves as ‘conservative and proud of it.’ Many/most have only a high school degree and almost all work at very working class jobs. They see being conservative as being in line with ‘American values’ of patriotism, hard work, self reliance. They tend to be isolationists and tend to think any browner skinned than they are person is an illegal immigrant who is collecting welfare and stealing American jobs. They see America as abandoning God and the principles which made it great. They see themselves as being very law and order and Democrats as soft on crime. They also tend to believe in corporal punishment and experienced an alarming amount of it as kids.

Note that I do not agree in the least except that I do see myself as patriotic, one of the key reasons I won’t vote GOP.

I’m only stating this because, from the perspective of someone who is conservative, they are the true Americans. I think most posters here view the world abd the US differently and see truth and justice as being equally important but disagree with what those are things day.

I also think there’s a lot more common ground between conservatives and liberals than many of us would like to believe.

I think that it extremely urgent that we look for and strengthen those areas of commonly held principles which surely include patriotism, courage, hard work, service to others, freedom.

I am very concerned because I do think it is possible that there could be another civil war here in the US. Whether there is or is not, we are stronger together than we are divided.
 
They see being conservative as being in line with ‘American values’ of patriotism, hard work, self reliance.
I agree with that to some degree. Doesn’t make me a 2023 Republican.
They tend to be isolationists and tend to think any browner skinned than they are person is an illegal immigrant who is collecting welfare and stealing American jobs.
That‘s EVIL.
IMHO of course. Your (or Emily’s) mileage may vary.
They see America as abandoning God and the principles which made it great.
There’s the intersection of ignorance and evil. God may be good but his earthly mouthpieces are quite uniformly evil. The principle that made America great more than any other, was FREEDOM FROM religion.
They see themselves as being very law and order and Democrats as soft on crime. They also tend to believe in corporal punishment and experienced an alarming amount of it as kids.
Excuses for evil don’t make it good. Seeing themselves with halos whilst wearing horns, doth not make them angels.
 
They see being conservative as being in line with ‘American values’ of patriotism, hard work, self reliance.
I agree with that to some degree. Doesn’t make me a 2023 Republican.
They tend to be isolationists and tend to think any browner skinned than they are person is an illegal immigrant who is collecting welfare and stealing American jobs.
That‘s EVIL.
IMHO of course. You (or Emily’s) mileage may vary.
They see America as abandoning God and the principles which made it great.
There’s the intersection of ignorance and evil.
They see themselves as being very law and order and Democrats as soft on crime. They also tend to believe in corporal punishment and experienced an alarming amount of it as kids.
Excuses for evil don’t make it good.
I think that it’s ignorant and yes, ignorance is an evil. It’s just not the only evil. So is smug self satisfaction, which I sometimes see in Democrats. Maybe myself.

Most or maybe all of these people feel as though they have been left behind, forgotten, treated as unworthy, less than. People like me, we left and did not spare even one backwards glance. I think I would have been turned into one of those pillars of salt. I was one of the ones who could only find herself or be her true self by leaving.

It is important to recognize and remember, it is always more difficult to be the one who left than the one who leaves.

I very much recognize that my strongest values: independent thinking, generosity, courage, honesty, thinking for myself ( something my father drummed into our heads and yes, I get the irony), kindness, hard work: those are values I learned growing up. The same as they did, for the most part. I’m not certain anyone else’s father was so determined they learn to think for themselves as mine was.

Most of my social interactions are with people who grew up with more money, more education than my family had, more urban experiences, more ‘sophistication.’ Quite a large portion are academics. Or otherwise members of the professional class. For about half of them, I’m a little radical and I have to admit a certain conceited self satisfaction in that. Really, I’m an egalitarian. I know where I came from and I respect the hell out of what my family went through to get to the point they could raise a family where all the kids went to college—and did it knowing we might not come back. Fearing that we might look down on them. I certainly do not look down on them. And I am not above going toe to toe in any disagreement over any issue, including whether or not it is ok to substitute Hellman’s for Miracle Whip in our mother’s recipe for potato salad.

I am completely sincere when I say we must look for shared values. And fight disinformation wherever we find it. Frankly I’m getting a bit disgusted by the many pleas for political contributions that really sound a lot like GOP taking points, with some manes and characters changed.

Disinformation is evil. Disrespect is evil. Dehumanizing other people is evil. We see it as evil when our political opponents demonize people of color, foreigners, LGBTQIA+. It’s not less evil to demonize those we disagree with. Disagree and despise some opinions and political stances—but don’t demonize the people.

Look for common ground. Everyone wants families to be stronger. Sometimes we disagree with what makes family. That doesn’t change the principle. Everyone wants their kids to have a better life than they did. Everyone wants their family to be safe, healthy, to have decent housing, food, health care, educational and career opportunities. A shot at a future.

That’s what to focus on.
 
I am very concerned because I do think it is possible that there could be another civil war here in the US. Whether there is or is not, we are stronger together than we are divided.
I share your concern. We lack a common purpose now that Trump has gotten the evil ones to conflate Trump with America.
LISTEN to him some time. Every time he utters “America”, substitute “me” and the sentence will make sense. And his EVIL/IGNORANT followers believe him.
 
I think that it’s ignorant and yes, ignorance is an evil. It’s just not the only evil. So is smug self satisfaction, which I sometimes see in Democrats. Maybe myself.
Yeah, we all have a duty to remain vigilant and not indulge in complacent satisfaction with our own great goodness. That’s nothing new.
People like me, we left and did not spare even one backwards glance. I think I would have been turned into one of those pillars of salt. I was one of the ones who could only find herself or be her true self by leaving.
Okay, that’s interesting. What did you leave and when (at what age)? My own “leaving” journey began at 17 when I left home, dropped out of school and remained incommunicado for years. I eschewed the Republican values of the 1960s despite having been indoctrinated since birth.
You?
Disinformation is evil. Disrespect is evil. Dehumanizing other people is evil.
Dehumanizing humans is necessarily evil IMO, but acknowledging the evil of people is not necessarily dehumanizing them.
I think Trump is an evil human, but still a human. I think his followers are also evil humans, but more likely redeemable than say, Trump himself.
Right now I think the better part of goodness and wisdom is to exclude trump and his suckers from as much collective decision-making as possible.
 
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