UK thought police arrest woman for silent prayer

[Rhea]

However, the PSPO clearly forbids prayer, silent or otherwise. And that is straight up fascist.

Aaaah. It sounds like you are saying that when someone intimidates via prayer, then they should not be stopped. Because stopping them would be “fascist.” Because it’s prayer.

V-S would agree with you. When they said, “we weren’t protestng, we were just praying” they thought the same as you think.

The judge seems to have thought - yah, no, intimidation is intimidation no matter what words you use. “Nice neighborhood you have there. Be a shame if something happened to it,” was intended to brink the same laws against harrassment.

 

[Metaphor]

Aaaah. It sounds like you are saying that when someone intimidates via prayer, then they should not be stopped. Because stopping them would be “fascist.” Because it’s prayer.

No. I am saying if you find silent prayer intimidating, that might be sad for you, but it is no good reason for the gov't to ban silent prayer.

The judge seems to have thought - yah, no, intimidation is intimidation no matter what words you use. “Nice neighborhood you have there. Be a shame if something happened to it,” was intended to brink the same laws against harrassment.

What judge?

 

[Arctish]

Honestly, the fact that she replied “maybe in my head” was likely not an answer that the cop expected. He was probably thinking, I ask this with the expectation that she was praying before I got here, and let’s see what she says. Then she answers with the comically intentional, “maybe in my head” that she will then parlay into a headline, “woman arrested for praying in her head” !!1!!1!!one!!!

And a bunch of internet people will pass that around uncritically, heroically ignoring that she ALSO said, “I’m here because it’s an abortion clinic,” and try to make her case for her from here to ad nauseum that the arrest was… fascist, unlawful, anti-christian, etc etc, etc.


She was arrested for protesting the clinic In violation of the order.

Yes. Nobody has disputed this. The PSPO specifically defines prayer as an action that counts as protesting.

I think at the time the PSPO was formulated, the writers did not have 'silent prayer in your head' as a targeted behaviour. However, the PSPO clearly forbids prayer, silent or otherwise. And that is straight up fascist.

I think you are conflating fascist with authoritarian.

All governments are authoritarian to some degree, but only some governments are fascist.

A temporary Public Spaces Protection Order is analogous to a temporary curfew. Yes, it restricts certain activities in certain areas that are usually lawful in all areas. That doesn't mean the government that imposed it is fascist or promoting fascism. It could be the case that the government is quite egalitarian and democratic, and the curfew or PSPO has been imposed to keep the peace, promote the general welfare, and to limit or thwart a campaign of harassment, intimidation, coercion, and property damage being carried out by some members of the community.

 

[Metaphor]

Honestly, the fact that she replied “maybe in my head” was likely not an answer that the cop expected. He was probably thinking, I ask this with the expectation that she was praying before I got here, and let’s see what she says. Then she answers with the comically intentional, “maybe in my head” that she will then parlay into a headline, “woman arrested for praying in her head” !!1!!1!!one!!!

And a bunch of internet people will pass that around uncritically, heroically ignoring that she ALSO said, “I’m here because it’s an abortion clinic,” and try to make her case for her from here to ad nauseum that the arrest was… fascist, unlawful, anti-christian, etc etc, etc.


She was arrested for protesting the clinic In violation of the order.

Yes. Nobody has disputed this. The PSPO specifically defines prayer as an action that counts as protesting.

I think at the time the PSPO was formulated, the writers did not have 'silent prayer in your head' as a targeted behaviour. However, the PSPO clearly forbids prayer, silent or otherwise. And that is straight up fascist.

I think you are conflating fascist with authoritarian.

All governments are authoritarian to some degree, but only some governments are fascist.

A temporary Public Spaces Protection Order is analogous to a temporary curfew. Yes, it restricts certain activities in certain areas that are usually lawful in all areas. That doesn't mean the government that imposed it is fascist or promoting fascism. It could be the case that the government is quite egalitarian and democratic, and the curfew or PSPO has been imposed to keep the peace, promote the general welfare, and to limit or thwart a campaign of harassment, intimidation, coercion, and property damage being carried out by some members of the community.

I haven't even disagreed with the concept of the PSPO, just this particular execution, for all the reasons I've already enumerated.

First, the ultrabroad wording means the law is not discoverable. Nobody can tell if they are breaking the law because if literally anything (and I use the word 'literally', literally) can be counted as 'protest', then literally anything can be breaking the law (as long as you are in the exclusion zone).

Second, whilst I don't think the formulators of the PSPO had silent prayer in mind (because silent prayer is not something that would have led to the PSPO), the wording nevertheless explicitly forbids silent prayer in the exclusion zone. There is no scenario I can imagine where a law ought allow you to be in a place, but forbid you from silently praying while you are in that place.

And, despite Rhea's protestations that I 'support' VS (instead, I oppose this clearly awful PSPO), I propose a better way of handling VS's behaviour. Put an ASBO on her to stop her being near the clinic, and amend the PSPO to not forbid silent prayer.

 

[ZiprHead]

First, the ultrabroad wording means the law is not discoverable. Nobody can tell if they are breaking the law because if literally anything (and I use the word 'literally', literally) can be counted as 'protest', then literally anything can be breaking the law (as long as you are in the exclusion zone).

Yah, no.

You really must think British cops and their courts are morons to believe this.

 

[Metaphor]

You really must think British cops and their courts are morons to believe this.

No, I must really think they are humans.

I know the United States has no corrupt cops, and her cops can always be trusted with subjective interpretations, but America is super special.

 

[laughing dog]

First, the ultrabroad wording means the law is not discoverable. Nobody can tell if they are breaking the law because if literally anything (and I use the word 'literally', literally) can be counted as 'protest', then literally anything can be breaking the law (as long as you are in the exclusion zone).

Yah, no.

You really must think British cops and their courts are morons to believe this.

No, just the participants in this thread.

 

[Rhea]

Second, whilst I don't think the formulators of the PSPO had silent prayer in mind (because silent prayer is not something that would have led to the PSPO), the wording nevertheless explicitly forbids silent prayer in the exclusion zone. There is no scenario I can imagine where a law ought allow you to be in a place, but forbid you from silently praying while you are in that place.

I wonder if you use a different definition of “explicitly” than I do. Can you point out for the group where it “explicitly forbids silent prayer”, please?

THE ACTIVITIES
The Activities prohibited by the Order are:
i Protesting, namely engaging in any act of approval or disapproval or attempted act of approval or disapproval, with respect to issues related to abortion services, by any means. This includes but is not limited to graphic, verbal or written means, prayer or counselling,
ii Interfering, or attempting to interfere, whether verbally or physically, with a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or member of staff,
iii Intimidating or harassing, or attempting to intimidate or harass, a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or a member of staff,
iv Recording or photographing a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or member of staff or
v Displaying any text or images relating directly or indirectly to the termination of pregnancy.

She was doing these things by standing in front of the clinic.

ii Interfering, or attempting to interfere, whether verbally or physically, with a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or member of staff,​

iii Intimidating or harassing, or attempting to intimidate or harass, a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or a member of staff,​

Since she has been doing this for YEARS now, it’s obvious that she is attempting to interfere, harass and intimidate. This is a violation of the PSPO, and the stupid answer she gave to the cop’s question IS NOT the reason she was arrested, PER THE COPS, in the quote I provided.

 

[Rhea]

She and her gang are trying to make the conversation all about “silent prayer.” And it’s all you can talk about. The rest of the world sees it for the bullying bullshit that it is.

 

[Learner]

You didn't answer my question. Why can't the gov't extend the "no prayer" zone to include the entire town? You are saying the gov't has no reason to do that, but that's not what I asked. The gov't had no reason to forbid private prayer within the PSPO.

I edited to expand so you could discern the answer:

Because, and I can’t emphasize this enough, it is not about the prayer; it is about the harrassment.. And the law knows this, even if you don’t.

That is why it is unneccessary to curtail her prayer anywhere else outside of the sight and space of the clients, staff and neighbors of the clinic.

This is not complex or nuanced. If the activity does not harrass or intimidate the clients, staff or neighbors of the clinic, it is not a concern of the PSPO. That is why the cop asked, “why are you standing here and not somewhere else?” To which she answered, “because this is clinic,” making it clear that her INTENT is to affect the clinic, and its clients, staff and neighbors.

According to her legal council ADF, Isabel Vaughn was arrested when the clinic was closed! IF this was the case then there was NO intimidation to the staff or clients, let alone blocking pathways to the clinic - although being a buffer-zone, she did go against the PSPO which means then, she must have been arrested for questioning, on suspicion to silent praying.


Excerpt from the ADF legal council site:

BIRMINGHAM (30th December 2022) – After a video of a charity volunteer’s arrest outside of an abortion facility went viral this month, further details have emerged as to the nature of the charges that she now faces.

Isabel Vaughan-Spruce, 45, was standing still and silently when police approached her. When asked what she was doing, she clarified that she was not protesting, but “might be” praying inside her mind.

She was searched, arrested, interrogated, and charged on four counts for breaking the so-called “buffer zone” around a Birmingham abortion facility. The full text of the local Public Space Protection Order (PSPO), banning prayer, among other activities considered to constitute protest, as part of the censorial “buffer zone” is available here. The terms of the PSPO define protest as including prayer, and also prohibit any act or attempted act of intimidation.

Not quite the character portrayed in some posts. I mean ... praying silently when the facility is closed?

The abortion facility was closed each time that Vaughan-Spruce chose to pray since the introduction of the “buffer zone” in November. Furthermore, she had made clear to the arresting officers that she was not there to protest. It was only after police inferred that she might be praying in her head, per her admission, that she was arrested. It thus follows that Vaughan-Spruce was arrested for silent prayer as a form of protest under the PSPO.

Despite only praying silently within her mind, Vaughan-Spruce was subsequently charged with “protesting and engaging in an act that is intimidating to service users”.

Based on the charges, the act of standing silently was also deemed “intimidating” behaviour, even though the abortion facility was closed and there was no discernible subject of this intimidation, and despite her clear admission that she was not there to protest. ADF legal-council

 

[Metaphor]

I wonder if you use a different definition of “explicitly” than I do. Can you point out for the group where it explicitly forbids silent prayer, please?

Yes. Where it says 'prayer or counselling'.

Since she has been doing this for YEARS now, it’s obvious that she is attempting to interfere, harrass and intimidate. This is a violation of the PSPO, and the stupid answer she gave to the cop’s question IS NOT the reason she was arrested, PER THE COPS, in the quote I provided.

She was arrested for protesting. The PSPO specifically and unambiguously lists prayer as a sign you are protesting. The cop arrested her after he asked about her praying. Stop defending this indefensible aspect of the PSPO.

 

[Metaphor]

She and her gang are trying to make the conversation all about “silent prayer.” And it’s all you can talk about. The rest of the world sees it for the bullying bullshit that it is.

Rhea, you are gaslighting us when you claim prayer is not a reason someone can be arrested, per the PSPO.

 

[Rhea]

She and her gang are trying to make the conversation all about “silent prayer.” And it’s all you can talk about. The rest of the world sees it for the bullying bullshit that it is.

Rhea, you are gaslighting us when you claim prayer is not a reason someone can be arrested, per the PSPO.

You appear to be talking about something different than I am.

I explicitly say “silent Prayer,” and you reply with “prayer.” It’s not subtle is it.


As for your fawning quote of this bully’s lawyer, of course he says that. That’s his job - to defend her and support her, regardless of whether it is true. And that’s what you choose to quote.


The fact that it was closed does not lessen her impact on the neighborhood, nor change that she was doing this to be seen and to make a public statement that will be seen by users and staff of the clinic. “Nice clinic you have there. Be a shame if something happened to it.”

If I were entering my workplace, knowing that protesters had been hanging around in off hours, it would be a clear attempt to intimidate me.

She knows what she is doing.


And I laugh my head off if her (or your) next claim is that praying has to be done in front of a closed building in order to be effective. Honestly, that’s ludicrous why does she need to be there to pray? Is that needed for the prayer to work? No, OBVIOUSLY not. She is there to be seen THERE and to have an impact on the clinic, it’s staff, clients and neighbors.

 

[Metaphor]

I explicitly say “silent Prayer,” and you reply with “prayer.” It’s not subtle is it.

As Gospel has pointed out, 'silent prayer' is a kind of prayer. Do you deny that?

As for your fawning quote of this bully’s lawyer, of course he says that. That’s his job - to defend her and support her, regardless of whether it is true. And that’s what you choose to quote.

I didn't quote anybody's lawyer. You are thinking of another poster.

And I laugh my head off if her (or your) next claim is that praying has to be done in front of a closed building in order to be effective.

Can you find time to laugh in between manufacturing assertions from whole cloth, slandering others, and debuting your own version of Just Asking Questions - Just Making Predictions?

Stop defending this PSPO, Rhea. It's not a good look when atheists say it is okay for the gov't to ban silent prayer.

 

[Rhea]

I didn't quote anybody's lawyer. You are thinking of another poster.

Sorry, yes, that was Learner.

 

[Arctish]

According to her legal council ADF, Isabel Vaughn was arrested when the clinic was closed! IF this was the case then there was NO intimidation to the staff or clients, let alone blocking pathways to the clinic - although being a buffer-zone, she did go against the PSPO which means then, she must have been arrested for questioning, on suspicion to silent praying.


Excerpt from the ADF legal council site:

BIRMINGHAM (30th December 2022) – After a video of a charity volunteer’s arrest outside of an abortion facility went viral this month, further details have emerged as to the nature of the charges that she now faces.

Isabel Vaughan-Spruce, 45, was standing still and silently when police approached her. When asked what she was doing, she clarified that she was not protesting, but “might be” praying inside her mind.

She was searched, arrested, interrogated, and charged on four counts for breaking the so-called “buffer zone” around a Birmingham abortion facility. The full text of the local Public Space Protection Order (PSPO), banning prayer, among other activities considered to constitute protest, as part of the censorial “buffer zone” is available here. The terms of the PSPO define protest as including prayer, and also prohibit any act or attempted act of intimidation.

Not quite the character portrayed in some posts. I mean ... praying silently when the facility is closed?

There's no mention of how long she had been standing there, or how often. There is no mention of how many persons she interacted/interfered with. There is no mention if she was there when staff arrived to open the clinic, or when they left at the end of the workday.

The abortion facility was closed each time that Vaughan-Spruce chose to pray since the introduction of the “buffer zone” in November. Furthermore, she had made clear to the arresting officers that she was not there to protest. It was only after police inferred that she might be praying in her head, per her admission, that she was arrested. It thus follows that Vaughan-Spruce was arrested for silent prayer as a form of protest under the PSPO.

Despite only praying silently within her mind, Vaughan-Spruce was subsequently charged with “protesting and engaging in an act that is intimidating to service users”.

Based on the charges, the act of standing silently was also deemed “intimidating” behaviour, even though the abortion facility was closed and there was no discernible subject of this intimidation, and despite her clear admission that she was not there to protest. ADF legal-council

I also see no mention of her admission she was standing in that particular place because "it's an abortion center". There are some pretty import details being left out of that press release.

 

[Gospel]

It's not a good look when atheists say it is okay for the gov't to ban silent prayer.

I agree. Too bad for you that's not what they (the government) did. I also think it's not a good look when Christians try to force their beliefs on others. It's exactly why the PSPO became a thing to begin with. I believe the PSPO wasn't fabricated whole cloth by a government that just wanting to do fascist stuff, but in fact was the result of calls for action coming from the affected community. It's not impossible that some of those people who wanted the government to act were Christians themselves.

 

[laughing dog]

According to her legal council ADF, Isabel Vaughn was arrested when the clinic was closed! IF this was the case then there was NO intimidation to the staff or clients, let alone blocking pathways to the clinic - although being a buffer-zone, she did go against the PSPO which means then, she must have been arrested for questioning, on suspicion to silent praying.


Excerpt from the ADF legal council site:

BIRMINGHAM (30th December 2022) – After a video of a charity volunteer’s arrest outside of an abortion facility went viral this month, further details have emerged as to the nature of the charges that she now faces.

Isabel Vaughan-Spruce, 45, was standing still and silently when police approached her. When asked what she was doing, she clarified that she was not protesting, but “might be” praying inside her mind.

She was searched, arrested, interrogated, and charged on four counts for breaking the so-called “buffer zone” around a Birmingham abortion facility. The full text of the local Public Space Protection Order (PSPO), banning prayer, among other activities considered to constitute protest, as part of the censorial “buffer zone” is available here. The terms of the PSPO define protest as including prayer, and also prohibit any act or attempted act of intimidation.

Not quite the character portrayed in some posts. I mean ... praying silently when the facility is closed?

There's no mention of how long she had been standing there, or how often. There is no mention of how many persons she interacted/interfered with. There is no mention if she was there when staff arrived to open the clinic, or when they left at the end of the workday.

The abortion facility was closed each time that Vaughan-Spruce chose to pray since the introduction of the “buffer zone” in November. Furthermore, she had made clear to the arresting officers that she was not there to protest. It was only after police inferred that she might be praying in her head, per her admission, that she was arrested. It thus follows that Vaughan-Spruce was arrested for silent prayer as a form of protest under the PSPO.

Despite only praying silently within her mind, Vaughan-Spruce was subsequently charged with “protesting and engaging in an act that is intimidating to service users”.

Based on the charges, the act of standing silently was also deemed “intimidating” behaviour, even though the abortion facility was closed and there was no discernible subject of this intimidation, and despite her clear admission that she was not there to protest. ADF legal-council

I also see no mention of her admission she was standing in that particular place because "it's an abortion center". There are some pretty import details being left out of that press release.

You make very important points. We also don't know what it was that caught the attention of the police in the first place. For example, initially did they recognize her as the persistent anti-abortion troll, was she in a position that looked like she was praying, or something else?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The loons from extinction rebellion who disrupt traffic and emergency vehicles by sitting in the road are pretty much left alone.

That's an outright falsehood. Not only are they immediately arrested as soon as the police arrive (although their actual removal from the scene can take a while due to their deliberate obstruction), but they're frequently assaulted by members of the public who they're inconveniencing, and those assaults are rarely acknowledged by the authorities at all.

They are assaulting others by blocking egress in a public place. They are picked up and moved, not assaulted.

Maybe you are sympathetic to loons who block ambulances but the general public isn't.

I love how to you "sitting in a road" is assault, but "forcibly moving someone" is not.

You must have had trouble on the playground as a kid. "But teacher, I had to hit him, he was just sitting there!"

I was the victim of bullies, but I suppose that does not fit your narrative, so you have to concoct phantasias about my personal history instead.

Were you? If so, you should actually understand the differences between inconvenience, assault, torment, and battery.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I wonder if you use a different definition of “explicitly” than I do. Can you point out for the group where it explicitly forbids silent prayer, please?

Yes. Where it says 'prayer or counselling'.

Since she has been doing this for YEARS now, it’s obvious that she is attempting to interfere, harrass and intimidate. This is a violation of the PSPO, and the stupid answer she gave to the cop’s question IS NOT the reason she was arrested, PER THE COPS, in the quote I provided.

She was arrested for protesting. The PSPO specifically and unambiguously lists prayer as a sign you are protesting. The cop arrested her after he asked about her praying. Stop defending this indefensible aspect of the PSPO.

What you are missing is that the cop already had her based on her answer for why she was there. Anything beyond that is simply giving her rope to hang herself with.