• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Chronicles in West Coast Socialism - the strict California Energy Building Codes have failed

Wouldn't the code then be ineffective. A failure would mean the newer homes were using more energy.

And as Togo mentions, higher efficiency means the propensity to use it. For instance, when I bought my home I heated it to 60 degrees during the day in the winter. After replacing the furnace with a much more efficient one, the place is now heated to 70 degrees (though that is more about my wife than me). Because I'm using less energy per degree warmth, I can afford to heat the house warmer. So my quality of life increases while the total reduction in energy usage isn't as large as it would have been. I'm still below what I used due to more insulation in addition to the new furnace.

paper said:
The engineering models that predict large gains may be wrong, failing to account for human nature, owners' failure to maintain insulation or appliances, or the rebound effect. Compliance with building codes may be less than perfect. Or the owners of older homes may have retrofitted those homes to be more energy efficient. If any of these explanations accounts for the result, the building codes may well have served their purpose of protecting homeowners from corner-cutting builders, saving homeowners money, or making them more comfortable. But the codes will not have reducedenergy use or carbon pollution relative to business-as-usual trends.

On the other hand, the predictions may be correct, and these results wrong. I may have failed to account for some home or occupant characteristics that increase energy consumption in new homes relative to old homes, increase electricity use on hot days faster in new homes than old homes, and
increase electricity consumption in new homes in California more than new homes in other states. If those explanations account for the result, then building codes may be saving energy and reducing pollution as promised, but those reductions savings are tremendously difficult to measure empirically.


The right-wing circle jerk may need to be postponed.
 
No one ever bloody reads these documents further than the title, do they?

from page 4, the section entitled What These Findings do not Mean

Because I recognize the potential for controversy, let me be clear about what this paper does not say. Nothing in here should be taken as evidence that energy-efficient building codes are bad policies

The author isn't arguing the energy efficient buildings are bad, or don't work, he's arguing that states with such policies are overstating the energy actually saved. He acknolwedges that energy efficient buildings use less energy (duh), but he's saying that:

1) having an energy efficient house increases the propensity to use energy
2) Building codes are not adhered to in practice

It's worth noting that energy useage in homes has increased over time in much of the western world. Homes are made warmer in cold times and hotter in cold times than used to be the case. The author's study doesn't mention that as an effect.

Thank you. I was really wondering if anyone had read the article.

Homes built recently are not using 80 percent less electricity than homes built before the California standards were first enacted in 1978; they are using more.

Well duh.

They also seem to be comparing 1978 construction to today's. So many factor would play into this including site placement, technology and current maintenance.


There are a lot of problems with the paper, but I would say that it is because there are too many variables involved. I give it a B+.

And a side note for those who don't know: most building codes are written by industry (aka free enterprise) and adopt by government.
 
Why would he not view the one-size fits all dictates in the form of building codes as part of the Road to Serfdom?
Because it would be wrong.
Central planners, in their rigidity and lack of specific knowledge, cause a lot of inefficiency. I know from personal experience being involved in a commercial building project.
I didn't realize that rigidity and ignorance meant central planning.
 
At one time I would have agreed with you. But for better or ill, terms change (or "cheapen"). Just Google "what is the meaning of socialism" and you will see a variety of formal and informal meanings. For example, the first meaning supplied by google is "a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Clearly the socialist assumption of the right of the community to regulate (dictate) the design and construction of residential and commercial buildings FOR ANY "collective" REASON they please is an expression of that belief. Moreover, underscoring the "socialist" meaning are google's synonyms: "leftism, welfarism; radicalism, progressivism, social democracy; communism," etc. IE... all these are a part of the chronicles of left coast socialism.

Mind you, I am not saying all forms of socialism (or welfarism, collectivism, progressivism, etc.) are the same in their political-economic scope or intensity. But I am saying that all these forms are rooted in a common ideological faith - that 'state' , 'society', and 'community' are essentially synonymous and pre-eminent...(ergo socialist).

(PS you might also note that many forum defenders of Nordic systems also call them a form of socialism. In other words, the terms meaning has become more generic and less specific to merely "owning the means of production".)

Does the collective (as you put it) need a justification to regulate and control itself? Like it or not, we're all part of one collective or another. No man is an island. Anyhoo... none of that is socialism. This has to do with the individualst - authoritarianism dichotomy. Socialists, as we as captialists can be found on both sides. A person telling you they're socialist tells you nothing on their views on authority.

"owning the means of production" is a wee bit archaic language. Today we use regulation in order to ensure that capitalists can keep "owning the means of production" while also ensuring it is of the benefit to society as a whole. I don't see the problem with this? You do agree that the tragedy of the commons is a thing and requires regulation to avoid? This isn't either socialism.

Libertarianism rests on "natural rights". A completely incoherent argument. IMHO it's just as arbitrary as the state just seizing stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights

Socialism is only those government policies (and regulation) specifically put into place to alleviate the unfair advantages of the wealthier. The whole point of socialism is equality. It's seen by socialists as a universal good and an end in itself. A socialist government is one which recognises that inequality is a problem and tries to do something about it.

Whether equality is good or bad is another matter. But this is what socialism means.... in it's broadest sense. Socialism is a word that has evolved greatly the last 150 years. Initially communism and socialism was used interchangeably. We've stopped doing that now.

If I remember my history correctly, the final split was when in 1917 the Bolsheviks called themselves communists and the Mensheviks socialists. But today we'd probably call both communists. But that sent socialsim off on it's separate trajectory.
 
Togo said:
No one ever bloody reads these documents further than the title, do they?
Actually some do. Some even quote the author's entire abstract which is his/her summary of his/her study and findings.

Togo said:
...The author isn't arguing the energy efficient buildings are bad, or don't work, he's arguing that states with such policies are overstating the energy actually saved. He acknowledges that energy efficient buildings use less energy (duh), but he's saying that:

1) having an energy efficient house increases the propensity to use energy
2) Building codes are not adhered to in practice

It's worth noting that energy usage in homes has increased over time in much of the western world. Homes are made warmer in cold times and hotter in cold times than used to be the case. The author's study doesn't mention that as an effect.

Wouldn't the code then be ineffective. A failure would mean the newer homes were using more energy.

And as Togo mentions, higher efficiency means the propensity to use it. ... Because I'm using less energy per degree warmth, I can afford to heat the house warmer. So my quality of life increases while the total reduction in energy usage isn't as large as it would have been. I'm still below what I used due to more insulation in addition to the new furnace.

Ex post facto rationalizations for benighted policy-making. In response to the late 70s energy shortage, California passed the most stringent energy codes (in the state with the most benign climate) in the nation. It has continued to increase the strictness of the codes, under the presumption and promise that it would slash energy consumption up to 80 percent.

It failed. While in 1980 it increased building costs by 10 percent (mainly by requiring expensive glazing) it failed to reduce demand for energy.

Faced with 40 years of policy failure and higher priced housing, the speculative somersault is a bit shameless. Now planner symps are trying to sell the notion that the policy 'error' in encouraging consumers to consume more energy (via increased efficiency) was actually a policy goal, i.e.; to provide increased consumer well-being.

Even if that were the policy goal, there is nothing to indicate that consumers well-being is greater than if energy codes were never implemented. Consumer preference may have been to save 10 percent on house purchases, continue to limit energy consumption, and use their mortgage savings for other, more valued, purposes.

The planners "judgement" of what is best for 'energy" demand and consumers is nothing more than their personal and subjective preference for how others should live their lives, backed by state power to impose their will.
 
No one ever bloody reads these documents further than the title, do they?

from page 4, the section entitled What These Findings do not Mean

Because I recognize the potential for controversy, let me be clear about what this paper does not say. Nothing in here should be taken as evidence that energy-efficient building codes are bad policies

The author isn't arguing the energy efficient buildings are bad, or don't work, he's arguing that states with such policies are overstating the energy actually saved. He acknolwedges that energy efficient buildings use less energy (duh), but he's saying that:

1) having an energy efficient house increases the propensity to use energy
2) Building codes are not adhered to in practice

It's worth noting that energy useage in homes has increased over time in much of the western world. Homes are made warmer in cold times and hotter in cold times than used to be the case. The author's study doesn't mention that as an effect.

I was going to say the same thing. Home energy usage is far greater today than forty years ago. Home central air conditioning was uncommon back then. I doubt you could find a new home today without central a/c. That's just one example.

Poor Max. Another anti-socialism screed failure.
 
No one ever bloody reads these documents further than the title, do they?

from page 4, the section entitled What These Findings do not Mean

Because I recognize the potential for controversy, let me be clear about what this paper does not say. Nothing in here should be taken as evidence that energy-efficient building codes are bad policies

The author isn't arguing the energy efficient buildings are bad, or don't work, he's arguing that states with such policies are overstating the energy actually saved. He acknolwedges that energy efficient buildings use less energy (duh), but he's saying that:

1) having an energy efficient house increases the propensity to use energy
2) Building codes are not adhered to in practice

It's worth noting that energy useage in homes has increased over time in much of the western world. Homes are made warmer in cold times and hotter in cold times than used to be the case. The author's study doesn't mention that as an effect.

I was going to say the same thing. Home energy usage is far greater today than forty years ago. Home central air conditioning was uncommon back then. I doubt you could find a new home today without central a/c. That's just one example.

Poor Max. Another anti-socialism screed failure.

Alas, you've made the same blunder as Togo and Nice Squirrel; you either don't understand the original policy goal OR you're thoughtlessly embracing immaterial and extraneous excuses.

Yes "home energy usage" is far greater today than forty years ago - it is THE POINT of the article. Mandated increased efficiency had two effects: a) it increased the cost of home ownership and then b) it encouraged increased consumption of energy. It did not "save" energy as a whole because of the 'rebound' effect.

Telling us that houses added AC, because of increased efficiency (in the benign climate California) is not an excuse, its a failure of policy.
 
Last edited:
Actually some do. Some even quote the author's entire abstract which is his/her summary of his/her study and findings.
You could try reading the report, especially the conclusion!

Ex post facto rationalizations for benighted policy-making. In response to the late 70s energy shortage, California passed the most stringent energy codes (in the state with the most benign climate) in the nation. It has continued to increase the strictness of the codes, under the presumption and promise that it would slash energy consumption up to 80 percent.
It should be noted that the report definitely seems to conclude that there wasn't anything like an 80 drop in energy consumption. However, the report explicitly indicates there can be flaws with their approach.

While in 1980 it increased building costs by 10 percent (mainly by requiring expensive glazing) it failed to reduce demand for energy.
This is unsubstantiated. While 80% wasn't reached, you can't say energy usage wasn't reduced at all.
 
I was going to say the same thing. Home energy usage is far greater today than forty years ago. Home central air conditioning was uncommon back then. I doubt you could find a new home today without central a/c. That's just one example.

Poor Max. Another anti-socialism screed failure.

Alas, you've made the same blunder as Togo and Nice Squirrel; you either don't understand the original policy goal OR you're thoughtlessly embracing immaterial and extraneous excuses.

Yes "home energy usage" is far greater today than forty years ago - it is THE POINT of the article. Mandated increased efficiency had two effects: a) it increased the cost of home ownership and then b) it encouraged increased consumption of energy. It did not "save" energy as a whole because of the 'rebound' effect.

Telling us that houses added AC, because of increased efficiency (in the benign climate California) is not an excuse, its a failure of policy.

You are telling us that the rise of the cost of "home ownership*" over the last 35 years is due to increased energy efficiency standards?

You are also telling us the policies encourages the consumption of energy? Please tell us exactly how a energy efficient building code encourages consumption of energy? (I can think of one example in commercial buildings, but want you to come up with the ones on your own.)

Also please tell us the original goal, because I understand the original goal to be related to geopolitics politics that brought about these codes - which included the malaise of the economy in the 1970 and acute energy shortages of that time. It was seen as a matter of national security. Are these not the reasons? Or were the reasons more nefarious such as the secret liberal cabal finding ways to subvert our freedoms. Please tell us the TRUE reasons for these codes.


*Not in the article, nor in my comments on the article. Me thinks someone is assuming my position which is "the posted working paper (non-peer-reviewed) is interesting, but is difficult as there are too many variables to draw conclusions on anything other than: Californians use more energy per capita than they did in 1979." - There is and can never be a control group to see if that increase would have been greater had these regulations been intact.
 
Last edited:
I don't doubt that the energy efficient building codes didn't live up to their rather optimistic predictions (reduce consumption by 80% etc) but I think it is reasonable to say that newer homes are more energy efficient.
 
Telling us that houses added AC, because of increased efficiency (in the benign climate California) is not an excuse, its a failure of policy.
No. The argument is AC was going to occur regardless (i.e. it is sunk cost due to social trends), but the energy consumption from the new houses is less than it would have been without the codes. I realize that is a slightly nuanced economic argument, but it should be readily understandable.
 
I was going to say the same thing. Home energy usage is far greater today than forty years ago. Home central air conditioning was uncommon back then. I doubt you could find a new home today without central a/c. That's just one example.

Poor Max. Another anti-socialism screed failure.

Alas, you've made the same blunder as Togo and Nice Squirrel; you either don't understand the original policy goal OR you're thoughtlessly embracing immaterial and extraneous excuses.

Yes "home energy usage" is far greater today than forty years ago - it is THE POINT of the article. Mandated increased efficiency had two effects: a) it increased the cost of home ownership and then b) it encouraged increased consumption of energy. It did not "save" energy as a whole because of the 'rebound' effect.

Telling us that houses added AC, because of increased efficiency (in the benign climate California) is not an excuse, its a failure of policy.

Never mind, Max. Make me the energy czar and I will see to it you are located in the right kind of house with the right level of energy consumption. During all thise real estate roller coaster ride in California, there have been many multimillion dollar mansions built that consume plenty of power. The excesses of the rich are everywhere obvious and abundant. It is hard to increase the energy efficiency of a homeless guy on the street sleeping out on a park bench. The Georgetown study did not prove the regulations were in themselves bad...when we had so many interpretations of them and a general increase in power consumption as the years have passed.
 
Telling us that houses added AC, because of increased efficiency (in the benign climate California) is not an excuse, its a failure of policy.
No. The argument is AC was going to occur regardless (i.e. it is sunk cost due to social trends), but the energy consumption from the new houses is less than it would have been without the codes. I realize that is a slightly nuanced economic argument, but it should be readily understandable.

I do not count the 106 degrees in North Hollywood as benign. We just had the hottest July on record in all history this year. We are a soft people and I guess we need what max says we need....shelter from the evils of socialism....;)
 
Alas, you've made the same blunder as Togo and Nice Squirrel; you either don't understand the original policy goal OR you're thoughtlessly embracing immaterial and extraneous excuses.

Yes "home energy usage" is far greater today than forty years ago - it is THE POINT of the article. Mandated increased efficiency had two effects: a) it increased the cost of home ownership and then b) it encouraged increased consumption of energy. It did not "save" energy as a whole because of the 'rebound' effect.

Telling us that houses added AC, because of increased efficiency (in the benign climate California) is not an excuse, its a failure of policy.

You are telling us that the rise of the cost of "home ownership*" over the last 35 years is due to increased energy efficiency standards?
No, I said that energy related building codes increased the cost of building a home in 1980 by 10 percent - its in the paper. Therefore it increased cost (selling price) to the consumer (and/or decreased the growth rate of new housing supply).

You are also telling us the policies encourages the consumption of energy? Please tell us exactly how a energy efficient building code encourages consumption of energy? (I can think of one example in commercial buildings, but want you to come up with the ones on your own.)
Its also known as the rebound effect - when efficiency is increased the cost of use drops - then consumers use more of it. Individuals add and leave on interior and exterior house lights and entertainment centers; add home office equipment, add appliances and fixtures; they add HVAC and condition more spaces and leave heat/cooling on during daily absences (etc.).

In sum, energy efficiency makes doing the activities that cause the imagined problems cheaper, which encourages more of those activities.

Also please tell us the original goal, because I understand the original goal to be related to geopolitics politics that brought about these codes - which included the malaise of the economy in the 1970 and acute energy shortages of that time. It was seen as a matter of national security. Are these not the reasons? Or were the reasons more nefarious such as the secret liberal cabal finding ways to subvert our freedoms. Please tell us the TRUE reasons for these codes.

As usual, politicians thought they could "solve" a sudden price shock during the Arab oil embargo and cartel by commanding consumer economics. In 1974, California established the California Energy Commission and gave it the authority to “prescribe, by regulation, lighting, insulation, climate control systems, and other building design and construction standards which increase the efficient use of energy.” What followed were 'conservation' edicts in the form of regulatory code. The rhetorical justification were based on several nonsensical notions: a) that the world was running out of fossil fuel supplies and b) that energy independence was attainable or desirable (some might recall that several years later Jimmy Carter would push for the federal launching of synthetic fuel production from coal).

The glib promises flowed. The California Energy Commission projected at the time that homes built after the standards were enacted, those built in the 1980’s relative to homes built in the 1970’s, would use 80% less energy. They claimed California would only be using a fifth as much energy as the pre-building-code homes. Starting in the 1970s, California was touted as an example of "progressive" solutions and on both a federal and state level "energy efficiency" has been the misbegotten 'fix it' for what turned out to be a non-problem.

Yet, "the crisis" of higher energy prices increased supply, and at the beginning of the 1980s and oil prices collapsed. But over the last 40 years the henny-penny's periodically proclaim the world is about to run out of oil and/or gas, and that energy independence and energy efficiency is a panacea to this "unsustainable" non-problem.

The actual problem is that energy efficiency is a faith based sacred cow among environmentalists. So much so they really don't care that it addresses a non-problem. They don't care if it does not mitigate pollution or global warming. They don't care if it does not actually save money on a cost-benefit basis. They don't care if carbon taxes, which ration through price rather than "energy regulation" ACTUALLY reduces energy usage.

Its just an idea that sounds intuitively right, and it is now one of the environmentalist worship totems. More importantly, it lets political leadership pass a bunch of policies that will make many feel better - and get them re-elected.

Like energy independence, its a bad idea that won't go away.
 
Energy independence..a bad idea? Max! Wake up! You may just be setting yourself up to have to buy your petrol from a socialist country...after the price goes back up! The reasons for seeking energy independence are many. I think you may prove to be standing alone in the notion we ought to be buying oil from the likes of the Saudis.:thinking:
 
The glib promises flowed. The California Energy Commission projected at the time that homes built after the standards were enacted, those built in the 1980’s relative to homes built in the 1970’s, would use 80% less energy. They claimed California would only be using a fifth as much energy as the pre-building-code homes. Starting in the 1970s, California was touted as an example of "progressive" solutions and on both a federal and state level "energy efficiency" has been the misbegotten 'fix it' for what turned out to be a non-problem.

That's the problem with the dimwits in office in California. They have very little grasp of what is actually going on and they probably pulled that 80% less energy number out of their ass. And they are still doing it.
 
Telling us that houses added AC, because of increased efficiency (in the benign climate California) is not an excuse, its a failure of policy.
No. The argument is AC was going to occur regardless (i.e. it is sunk cost due to social trends), but the energy consumption from the new houses is less than it would have been without the codes. I realize that is a slightly nuanced economic argument, but it should be readily understandable.

Yet, adding AC units to older homes was not going to be at the same rate regardless, nor was its actual use in older and new homes going to increase at the same rate. Equipment and new building code energy efficiency caused each unit of cooling to become cheaper, encouraging its addition and usage. See the Rebound Effect (Wiki): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebound_effect_(conservation)

Since each kilometre of travel becomes cheaper, there will be an increase in driving speed and/or kilometres driven, as long as the price elasticity of demand for car travel is not zero. Other examples might include the growth in garden lighting after the introduction of energy-saving compact fluorescent lamps or the increasing size of houses driven partly by higher fuel efficiency in home heating technologies. If the rebound effect is larger than 100%, all gains from the increased fuel efficiency would be wiped out by increases in demand (the Jevons paradox).
 
Energy independence..a bad idea? Max! Wake up! You may just be setting yourself up to have to buy your petrol from a socialist country...after the price goes back up! The reasons for seeking energy independence are many. I think you may prove to be standing alone in the notion we ought to be buying oil from the likes of the Saudis.:thinking:

Energy independence makes no more sense than that of food independence for Germany or automobile independence for Australia. It is a world market for most goods and services, including oil, natural gas, and coal. From a consumer standpoint, it does not matter if oil is sold to Japan or purchased domestically. Domestic production may provide domestic jobs, but striving to be independent because it is inherently "better" is a fool's errand.

See economics; the laws of absolute and comparative advantage.
 
Yet, adding AC units to older homes was not going to be at the same rate regardless, nor was its actual use in older and new homes going to increase at the same rate.
You know all of this how?
Equipment and new building code energy efficiency caused each unit of cooling to become cheaper, encouraging its addition and usage. See the Rebound Effect (Wiki): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebound_effect_(conservation)
The rebound effect is a theoretical possibility. On what empirical grounds do you make the claim here?
 
Back
Top Bottom