The REAL minimum wage

[Loren Pechtel]

The point is she realizes that $2.19 + tips is better than MW.

only if you make good tips.

and what about the clerk at the shoe store, should he work for tips too?

At worst it's equal to minimum wage. There is no downside to choosing a tipped job. In practice it's often much better.

I think tips are a stupid idea but they are the reality of certain jobs in the US.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Minimum wage should be no less than $20 per hour for any form of productive work.

Then there would be a *LOT* of people who could never find a job.

 

[DBT]

Minimum wage should be no less than $20 per hour for any form of productive work.

Then there would be a *LOT* of people who could never find a job.

A lot of workers get paid more than $2O dollars per hour. The average national wage comes to more than $20ph. Business is not going to collapse because a small percentage of MW workers get a livable return for their time, effort and contribution to society. A bit of crying and gnashing of teeth and adjustments are made, business as usual, the World goes on, but with an improved standard of living for those at the bottom of the heap.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

The point is she realizes that $2.19 + tips is better than MW.

only if you make good tips.

and what about the clerk at the shoe store, should he work for tips too?

At worst it's equal to minimum wage.

that's what the law says, not necessarily the practice. Better enforcement of the law is sorely needed.

There is no downside to choosing a tipped job.

then every job should be a tipped job because every job I can think of has at least one downside. Tipped jobs are miraculous indeed.

In practice it's often much better.

show me the numbers to back up that statement.

I think tips are a stupid idea but they are the reality of certain jobs in the US.

still doesn't answer the shoe clerk question.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Minimum wage should be no less than $20 per hour for any form of productive work.

Then there would be a *LOT* of people who could never find a job.

A lot of workers get paid more than $2O dollars per hour. The average national wage comes to more than $20ph. Business is not going to collapse because a small percentage of MW workers get a livable return for their time, effort and contribution to society. A bit of crying and gnashing of teeth and adjustments are made, business as usual, the World goes on, but with an improved standard of living for those at the bottom of the heap.

Why do you think $0/hr is better than $7.25/hr?

 

[Celldweller]

nothing you tip for is a service that you could not do for yourself.

I disagree and suppose we'd now have to get into the definition of what we all deem as a service. Neither myself, my daughters nor my wife require the shoe clerk to fit us for shoes because, as you said, we can do it ourselves. However, what we can't do for ourselves (unless we stay home) is belly up to a bar and mix our own Singapore Slings. That bartender is offering a service we can't (or not allowed) to do for ourselves. Therefore, tip.

I'm not aware of any retail job where tipping would make any sense. But wait, what about getting fitted for a wedding dress, or a 3 piece suit?.. to which those employees are typically paid on commissions in addition to their hourly wage, therefore I see no tipping required.

People want to earn money, not depend on the kindness of strangers.

Depending on the kindess of strangers is exactly what bartenders, waiters, bellmen, taxi drivers, valet's, etc. depend upon. I'm not sure that kindness has anything to do with it as opposed to just depending on strangers to value their service enough to tip.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I disagree and suppose we'd now have to get into the definition of what we all deem as a service. Neither myself, my daughters nor my wife require the shoe clerk to fit us for shoes because, as you said, we can do it ourselves. However, what we can't do for ourselves (unless we stay home) is belly up to a bar and mix our own Singapore Slings.

then stay home, or ask to go behind the bar. I happen to like being fitted for shoes. I choose to have it done. I'm not alone in this. Why not tip the clerk? Saying you can do it for yourself doesn't explain the difference in social conventions.

That bartender is offering a service we can't (or not allowed) to do for ourselves. Therefore, tip.

I'm not aware of any retail job where tipping would make any sense. But wait, what about getting fitted for a wedding dress, or a 3 piece suit?.. to which those employees are typically paid on commissions in addition to their hourly wage, therefore I see no tipping required.

tipping is not required. A gratuity is suppose to be done, and done in an amount, at the will of the customer. That's why it's called a tip and not fee. When I book large parties at restaurants, the restaurant tells me there will be an additional charge to cover the tip, but that's not a tip, that's a service charge.

People want to earn money, not depend on the kindness of strangers.

Depending on the kindess of strangers is exactly what bartenders, waiters, bellmen, taxi drivers, valet's, etc. depend upon.

not everywhere. Waiters throughout Europe, for example, are considered paid professionals and paid living wages and can consider a tip to be demeaning.

I'm not sure that kindness has anything to do with it as opposed to just depending on strangers to value their service enough to tip.

Shouldn't their employers value their service enough to pay them a decent GUARENTEED wage?

 

[Ford]

I'm not aware of any retail job where tipping would make any sense. But wait, what about getting fitted for a wedding dress, or a 3 piece suit?.. to which those employees are typically paid on commissions in addition to their hourly wage, therefore I see no tipping required.

In a certain sense, then, tipping is a form of commission. Paid directly by the customer instead of by the employer.

If the waitress is working on commission, and gets 15% of what she sells, she's gonna work hard to talk folks into a dessert or another drink, work hard to bring back regular customers, and turn over her tables faster...just like if she's working for 15% gratuity.

An imperfect analogy, I'll admit, but a lot of these jobs aren't just service...they're sales jobs.

 

[Celldweller]

then stay home, or ask to go behind the bar. I happen to like being fitted for shoes. I choose to have it done. I'm not alone in this. Why not tip the clerk? Saying you can do it for yourself doesn't explain the difference in social conventions.

Point taken. Funny, I was in 2 different Starbucks today and noticed that one had a large tip jar up front by the counter and the 2nd, no tip jar in site. Hmm..

tipping is not required. A gratuity is suppose to be done, and done in an amount, at the will of the customer. That's why it's called a tip and not fee. When I book large parties at restaurants, the restaurant tells me there will be an additional charge to cover the tip, but that's not a tip, that's a service charge.

I have 2 receipts in my possession from restaurants - one has a line for a tip, another a line for a gratuity - semantics? Agreed on the "service charge" verbiage..glorified tip?

not everywhere. Waiters throughout Europe, for example, are considered paid professionals and paid living wages and can consider a tip to be demeaning.

Good point

Shouldn't their employers value their service enough to pay them a decent GUARENTEED wage?

Yes.

Ford: In a certain sense, then, tipping is a form of commission. Paid directly by the customer instead of by the employer.

If the waitress is working on commission, and gets 15% of what she sells, she's gonna work hard to talk folks into a dessert or another drink, work hard to bring back regular customers, and turn over her tables faster...just like if she's working for 15% gratuity.

An imperfect analogy, I'll admit, but a lot of these jobs aren't just service...they're sales jobs.

I rather like the analogy and would agree that these jobs are simply "sales" at heart. The bartender, by virtue of politeness, timeliness and not watering down my drink is basically selling me on his/her worthiness for a tip. So...what about strippers? I kid, I kid.

 

[bleubird]

Anecdote time.
I work for a small (2mil/yr gross)retail store.5-6 employees.I make over two times the state MW .Most would call this an unskilled job.They be wrong!Just because a job is not IT or management does not mean it is unskilled.From my experience small retail requires a broader set of skills.One being able to deal with asshats,damaged humans,and kids.
And,be careful how you treat the person that is making your meal!

 

[Celldweller]

Anecdote time.
I work for a small (2mil/yr gross)retail store.5-6 employees.I make over two times the state MW .Most would call this an unskilled job.They be wrong!Just because a job is not IT or management does not mean it is unskilled.From my experience small retail requires a broader set of skills.One being able to deal with asshats,damaged humans,and kids.
And,be careful how you treat the person that is making your meal!

Alright, so let's use you as an example- first, are you the store manager and if so, given the duties of the employees, how would you feel about them accepting tips? Why or why not..

 

[bleubird]

Tips in retail are so small that it is a non issue.Tips are a food service thing.
http://blog.cloud9realtime.com/infographic-small-business-jobs-statistics/

 

[Celldweller]

Tips in retail are so small that it is a non issue.Tips are a food service thing.
http://blog.cloud9realtime.com/infographic-small-business-jobs-statistics/

But that's part of the discussion being questioned alongside MW- as Athena pointed out the social convention is seen as food service alongside the previous examples mentioned. But should/could tipping be extended to non-socially conventional jobs OR just raise the MW up altogether and do away with tipping as a whole. I'm for the latter personally.

 

[Derec]

What kind of third world place do you live in? MW is $9.10 where I live, regardless if one gets tips in addition to wages...

Does that mean you don't have mandatory 15% minimum tipping? Although these days you hear more and more that you should tip at least 20%
The low minimum wage for tipped employees goes hand in hand with expectation of a high tip rate.

Why do people take these jobs?

They lack the skills necessary to get an actual minimum wage job?

When you consider the tips they make they make more than the actual minimum wage for non-tipped employees like fast food etc.

 

[Derec]

Well, we all have some or all of those. This does not seem a particularly good explanation as to why some small subset of people are willing to take $2/hr jobs and are unable to land a job at the full $7.25 rate for other minimum wage jobs.

They aren't. With the tips they make more than MW and the employer makes up the difference should tips not be sufficient to get them to MW. So they are guaranteed at least MW but typically make more. Not a bad deal, at least compared to actual MW jobs.

 

[Derec]

Alaska, California, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington require tipped workers to be payed the State MW before including tips.

Do these states adjust the minimum expected tip rate accordingly or are the waiters/ses double dipping?

 

[Derec]

Keep the 2.13 MW but make tips a non-taxable income?

Why? Income is income. Why should a tipped employee making say $10/h after tips have most of their income be tax-free as opposed to a wage employee earning $10/h outright?

 

[bleubird]

The right to work states are mostly southern.So,fuck you!
If you do not wish to feed yourself than you should pay to have someone else to feed you!

 

[Derec]

The right to work states are mostly southern.So,fuck you!

I fail to see how supposed liberals can support forced unionization without incurring some serious cognitive dissonance. I also fail to see relevance to the topic at hand.

If you do not wish to feed yourself than you should pay to have someone else to feed you!

Uhm, nobody is expecting free restaurant food (although Jamais Winston seems to expect free soda at Burger King). The question is how the paying-for-it should be organized.

 

[Celldweller]

Keep the 2.13 MW but make tips a non-taxable income?

Why? Income is income. Why should a tipped employee making say $10/h after tips have most of their income be tax-free as opposed to a wage employee earning $10/h outright?

Good point.