Are US policy makers actually TRYING to start WW III?

[Deadend]

Well, Russia's has already succeeded in creating an alternate reality in which it is not the aggressor versus Ukraine. Many Russians - and apparently also non-Russians - are quite content to live in this alternate reality. Compared to creating an alternate reality, creating an alternate Visa/Mastercard or Boeing will be a piece of cake!

 

[angelo]

Will be interesting the outcome in this part of the world in the next few months. At present everyone is grandstanding. What may happen if they get serious?

 

[barbos]

Well, Russia's has already succeeded in creating an alternate reality in which it is not the aggressor versus Ukraine. Many Russians - and apparently also non-Russians - are quite content to live in this alternate reality. Compared to creating an alternate reality, creating an alternate Visa/Mastercard or Boeing will be a piece of cake!

Visa/Mastercard extortion monopoly must die. And it is you who lives in alternative reality.

 

[dystopian]

Well, Russia's has already succeeded in creating an alternate reality in which it is not the aggressor versus Ukraine. Many Russians - and apparently also non-Russians - are quite content to live in this alternate reality. Compared to creating an alternate reality, creating an alternate Visa/Mastercard or Boeing will be a piece of cake!

Visa/Mastercard extortion monopoly must die. And it is you who lives in alternative reality.

 

[tupac chopra]

Well, Russia's has already succeeded in creating an alternate reality in which it is not the aggressor versus Ukraine. Many Russians - and apparently also non-Russians - are quite content to live in this alternate reality. Compared to creating an alternate reality, creating an alternate Visa/Mastercard or Boeing will be a piece of cake!

What is your evidence that Russia is an aggressor?

 

[tupac chopra]

Visa/Mastercard extortion monopoly must die. And it is you who lives in alternative reality.

America can't help but shoot itself in the foot. They are hastening the BRICS setting up their own alternatives

 

[angelo]

Surely the Americans have enough problems of their own on their domestic front without sticking their noses into other countries affairs.

 

[Deadend]

What is your evidence that Russia is an aggressor?

It invaded and annexed the Crimea.

 

[dystopian]

What is your evidence that Russia is an aggressor?

It invaded and annexed the Crimea.

Don't bother, some of the people in this thread are incapable of acknowledging reality and despite having repeatedly been shown why they're wrong, continue to insist Russia hasn't done anything wrong.

 

[Deadend]

Well, you never know, I might learn something.

 

[tupac chopra]

What is your evidence that Russia is an aggressor?

It invaded and annexed the Crimea.

It did not invade Crimea. Although to be fair this lie has been repeated many times by western media and politicians. A referendum was held which quite expectedly resulted in the Crimeans overwhelmingly siding with Russia
Russia has leases on naval bases in crimea until 2042, and an agreement dating back to the 1990's to have up to 25,000 troops in Crimea.

 

[barbos]

What is your evidence that Russia is an aggressor?

It invaded and annexed the Crimea.

It did not invade Crimea. Although to be fair this lie has been repeated many times by western media and politicians. A referendum was held which quite expectedly resulted in the Crimeans overwhelmingly siding with Russia
Russia has leases on naval bases in crimea until 2042, and an agreement dating back to the 1990's to have up to 25,000 troops in Crimea.

Don't bother, some of the people in this thread are incapable of acknowledging reality and despite having repeatedly been shown why they're wrong, continue to insist Russia is always wrong.

 

[dystopian]

Don't bother, some of the people in this thread are incapable of acknowledging reality and despite having repeatedly been shown why they're wrong, continue to insist Russia is always wrong.

Not always. Just when it's blatantly obvious that it is, in fact, wrong; regardless of how a few rabid and random pro-russians on an internet forum manage to distort the facts to try and deny it. Take Tupac Chopra's claim that there was no invasion of Crimea because of the agreement allowing Russia to station troops in Crimea. While this agreement did in fact exist; it did NOT allow those russian troops to go storm and occupy the government and military facilities of Ukraine... yet they did. Without an actually valid cassus belli to do so, I might add. It is *that* reason why the west and Ukraine quite rightfully call it an invasion. And it is that twisting and omission of facts that leads an objective mind to reject what your side has to say.

 

[Togo]

What is your evidence that Russia is an aggressor?

It invaded and annexed the Crimea.

It did not invade Crimea. Although to be fair this lie has been repeated many times by western media and politicians. A referendum was held which quite expectedly resulted in the Crimeans overwhelmingly siding with Russia
Russia has leases on naval bases in crimea until 2042, and an agreement dating back to the 1990's to have up to 25,000 troops in Crimea.

But the 'referendum' you're talking about happened after the Russian army seized control of Crimea, taking over government buildings, media centres, and Ukrainian military installations, and holding the Ukrainian armed forces at gunpoint. How is that not an invasion?

 

[barbos]

What is your evidence that Russia is an aggressor?

It invaded and annexed the Crimea.

It did not invade Crimea. Although to be fair this lie has been repeated many times by western media and politicians. A referendum was held which quite expectedly resulted in the Crimeans overwhelmingly siding with Russia
Russia has leases on naval bases in crimea until 2042, and an agreement dating back to the 1990's to have up to 25,000 troops in Crimea.

But the 'referendum' you're talking about happened after the Russian army seized control of Crimea, taking over government buildings, media centres, and Ukrainian military installations, and holding the Ukrainian armed forces at gunpoint. How is that not an invasion?

Yes, Russian forces assisted in conducting referendum. Without them Right Sector nazi would probably have made another Odessa out of Crimea.

 

[barbos]

Don't bother, some of the people in this thread are incapable of acknowledging reality and despite having repeatedly been shown why they're wrong, continue to insist Russia is always wrong.

Not always....

Yes always. Russia invaded Georgia before, now they invaded Ukraine.
That's your mantra and no amount of actual evidence is gonna change that.

 

[Deadend]

It did not invade Crimea. Although to be fair this lie has been repeated many times by western media and politicians. A referendum was held which quite expectedly resulted in the Crimeans overwhelmingly siding with Russia
Russia has leases on naval bases in crimea until 2042, and an agreement dating back to the 1990's to have up to 25,000 troops in Crimea.

True, since 1997 Ukraine and Russia have had an agreement to have up to 25,000 Russian troops stationed in Crimea. However, this agreement also stated that the Russian troops ought to respect Ukrainian sovereignty, observe its laws and not
intervene in Ukrainian internal affairs. When crossing the Ukrainian border, Russian forces had to identify themselves and all Russian military movement (outside of their bases) had to be coordinated with Ukraine. Russia broke the terms of this treaty when it send in its 'little green men'.

Based on a 2013 poll, the 'expected result' of the referendum would be that circa 23% would vote for Crimea to join Russia. But, considering Russia's military occupation of the territory, 97% being in favor of union with Russia isn't all that unexpected.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What is your evidence that Russia is an aggressor?

It invaded and annexed the Crimea.

It did not invade Crimea. Although to be fair this lie has been repeated many times by western media and politicians. A referendum was held which quite expectedly resulted in the Crimeans overwhelmingly siding with Russia
Russia has leases on naval bases in crimea until 2042, and an agreement dating back to the 1990's to have up to 25,000 troops in Crimea.

But the 'referendum' you're talking about happened after the Russian army seized control of Crimea, taking over government buildings, media centres, and Ukrainian military installations, and holding the Ukrainian armed forces at gunpoint. How is that not an invasion?

Yes, Russian forces assisted in conducting referendum. Without them Right Sector nazi would probably have made another Odessa out of Crimea.

The referendum was a sham. Among other things the status quo wasn't even on the ballot.

And why do you think the Russian forces would be any more honest than the Ukrainians that would otherwise have done it??

 

[4321lynx]

It did not invade Crimea. Although to be fair this lie has been repeated many times by western media and politicians. A referendum was held which quite expectedly resulted in the Crimeans overwhelmingly siding with Russia
Russia has leases on naval bases in crimea until 2042, and an agreement dating back to the 1990's to have up to 25,000 troops in Crimea.

True, since 1997 Ukraine and Russia have had an agreement to have up to 25,000 Russian troops stationed in Crimea. However, this agreement also stated that the Russian troops ought to respect Ukrainian sovereignty, observe its laws and not
intervene in Ukrainian internal affairs. When crossing the Ukrainian border, Russian forces had to identify themselves and all Russian military movement (outside of their bases) had to be coordinated with Ukraine. Russia broke the terms of this treaty when it send in its 'little green men'.

Based on a 2013 poll, the 'expected result' of the referendum would be that circa 23% would vote for Crimea to join Russia. But, considering Russia's military occupation of the territory, 97% being in favor of union with Russia isn't all that unexpected.

Of course Russia invaded Crimea. The hawks in the US government continued to treat Russia as an enemy or potential or likely enemy after the fall of the Soviets. This attitude has become more noticeable in recent years. With the likelihood that Ukraine would in a few years become part of NATO, Putin acted before it was too late to improve his strategic position and grabbed Crimea back for Russia. We'll see what he and Petroshenko can do in the near future. And don't forget that Crimea was a Soviet gift to the Ukraine in 1954. Big Brother gives and Big Brother takes away. The real game is Russia vs the USA.

 

[dystopian]

But the 'referendum' you're talking about happened after the Russian army seized control of Crimea, taking over government buildings, media centres, and Ukrainian military installations, and holding the Ukrainian armed forces at gunpoint. How is that not an invasion?

A completely sensible point.

But then people like Barbos come along and say stuff like;

Yes, Russian forces assisted in conducting referendum. Without them Right Sector nazi would probably have made another Odessa out of Crimea.

You heard it here first, people. If a foreign country has been sowing unrest and seperatist sentiment in your country for years and then when they've finally convinced some witless locals in calling a referendum, and then foreign soldiers come into your country with guns and tanks to occupy your government's buildings and facilities, and then post armed guards outside the referendum polling stations where the only two options on the ballot are both in the foreign country's interests and cities report an impressive voter turnout of 120(!)%...

...that counts as 'assisting' you.

Jesus fucking christ, the blinders on these people.