So...We Gonna Talk About This Speech?

[Ford]

So why is one "ripping off" and the other isn't? Face it, cultures influence each other.

That's right I forgot. You think everything great was created by white people.

 

[Metaphor]

I don't think that's quite how Metaphor sees it. He says it's not a meaningful concept but then goes on to defend it and say the results are usually beneficial. I think Metaphor strongly believes that people can and should gainfully use things from other cultures, and that anything that impedes that activity is inherently immoral.

I think when Metaphor speaks of 'cultural appropriation mythicists' what he is expressing is contempt for critics of cultural appropriation, not that cultural appropriation is a myth. Interestingly, he knows that cultural exchange is less controversial and achieves much the same result, but for some reason doesn't favor it.

Potato potahto. It depends on whether you define the term "cultural appropriation" as negative (the way it is actually used by SJWs). I will let Metaphor himself clarify how he uses the terms though.

For the cultural appropriation mythicists, cultural appropriation is always negative. If an action has been described as 'cultural appropriation' it follows that it is problematic. Cultural appropriation does not entail death; cultural appropriation is death (if Orwell will forgive my reimagining of a line from Nineteen Eighty-Four).

 

[Ford]

For the cultural appropriation mythicists,

So you're just going to repeat the talking point over and over again until it sticks.

 

[Derec]

That's right I forgot. You think everything great was created by white people.

You lack basic reading comprehension if you really think that what I wrote has any resemblance to this. More likely though is that you are deliberately misconstruing what I wrote.

 

[J842P]

So why is one "ripping off" and the other isn't? Face it, cultures influence each other.

That's right I forgot. You think everything great was created by white people.

How could you possibly interpret what you are quoting like that?

 

[Ford]

That's right I forgot. You think everything great was created by white people.

You lack basic reading comprehension if you really think that what I wrote has any resemblance to this. More likely though is that you are deliberately misconstruing what I wrote.

Well you're the guy who blames everything on black people and women in this forum.

 

[Derec]

Young black men being gunned down in the streets is a racial issue.

Most young black men being gunned down in the streets are being gunned down by other young black men.
As far as getting shot by police, it happens to whites too.
Suspect who was shot, killed by Del. state trooper identified; police say he carried a gun-shaped lighter
Most police shootings are justified though.

The drug war is a racial issue.

Is it?

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Well you're the guy who blames everything on black people and women in this forum.

You would be wrong, as usual.

 

[Ford]

You would be wrong, as usual.

That's right. I forgot about all those posts you made where you defended women and non-white people.

 

[Metaphor]

the cultural appropriation mythicists

Your effort to make this a thing is going nowhere. It isn't a myth. White people ripped off black culture and claimed it as their own.

No, "white people" didn't do any such thing.

If anything, your 'example' of Pat Boone is embarrassingly off: it appears that Little Richard didn't write a word of Tutti Frutti, according to the accredited cowriter Dorothy LaBostrie.

Pat Boone did nothing morally wrong by covering a song, and no amount of protest from you can change that obvious fact.

 

[Derec]

First, did I say you?

Well I could conceivably be member of "some people who post here". Also we are always at loggerheads.

Second, I know a lot of black people. I mean I have 35 living first cousins alone, all of them black. I somehow I don't think you know as many black people as as I do.

I never imagined I did.

Third, when i say I know a lot of black people, i mean know their parents, grandparents, great-grand parents, spouses, children, I have eaten in their homes, slept over in their homes, had them eat and sleep in mine, I was with them when a loved one passed away and when their children were born, know when they snuck their first drink, their first smoke, their first kiss and who they were with.

You are shifting goalposts now. Originally it was "have ever seen even seen black people other than on TV" and now it's all these criteria. Given all these restrictions, I know hardly any people period.

What do you mean?

I was going by your initial criterion, "other than on TV". Hence my tongue-in-cheek reference to black strip clubs (although in reality the dancers in regular $10/dance clubs are quite diverse themselves).

 

[Ford]

Your effort to make this a thing is going nowhere. It isn't a myth. White people ripped off black culture and claimed it as their own.

No, "white people" didn't do any such thing.

If anything, your 'example' of Pat Boone is embarrassingly off: it appears that Little Richard didn't write a word of Tutti Frutti, according to the accredited cowriter Dorothy LaBostrie.

Pat Boone did nothing morally wrong by covering a song, and no amount of protest from you can change that obvious fact.

So white people cannot possibly do anything wrong. Duly noted.

 

[Metaphor]

For the cultural appropriation mythicists,

So you're just going to repeat the talking point over and over again until it sticks.

I notice you had to dishonestly truncate my quote because you can't actually address my point. It isn't even a controversial one; that 'cultural appropriation' is regarded as always wrong by the mythicists.

 

[Derec]

Pat Boone did nothing morally wrong by covering a song, and no amount of protest from you can change that obvious fact.

As if white people are the only ones who cover stuff.

 

[Metaphor]

No, "white people" didn't do any such thing.

If anything, your 'example' of Pat Boone is embarrassingly off: it appears that Little Richard didn't write a word of Tutti Frutti, according to the accredited cowriter Dorothy LaBostrie.

Pat Boone did nothing morally wrong by covering a song, and no amount of protest from you can change that obvious fact.

So white people cannot possibly do anything wrong. Duly noted.

I did not say that, nothing I've written anywhere ever could imply it, and I don't believe it.

Next.

 

[Ford]

So white people cannot possibly do anything wrong. Duly noted.

I did not say that, nothing I've written anywhere ever could imply it, and I don't believe it.

Next.

Well you're claiming that white people cannot possibly steal black culture, because culture doesn't exist.

 

[Derec]

I did not say that, nothing I've written anywhere ever could imply it, and I don't believe it.
Next.

That's Ford for you. What you write and what he reads are only tangentially related.

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Well you're claiming that white people cannot possibly steal black culture, because culture doesn't exist.

Well he is also claiming that black people cannot possibly steal white culture. But that doesn't imply that "black people cannot possibly do anything wrong". Also, nobody said that culture doesn't exist. Although it is an abstract concept and not a thing.

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Everything is stolen anyway.

 

[Metaphor]

I did not say that, nothing I've written anywhere ever could imply it, and I don't believe it.

Next.

Well you're claiming that white people cannot possibly steal black culture, because culture doesn't exist.

After a dozen pages, this is what you think my position is?

I did not claim, and do not believe, that 'culture doesn't exist'. My flabber is gasted that anybody could possibly take that from what I've written. A culture is a set of ideas; ideas exist, sets exist, cultures exist.

What I have claimed is that the ordinary meaning of the term 'appropriation' applies to things that can be stolen. Culture cannot be stolen by copying ideas because nobody owns a culture and copying an idea does not deprive anyone of that idea.

Now, can white people (or any people) copy ideas of cultures they were not raised in? Sure they can, and should, whenever they see an idea that is good and worth copying. Indeed, you should copy ideas from any culture, whether you were raised in it or not, if you like the idea and it's a good one and it brings you happiness. If you want to call this copying 'cultural appropriation', I certainly can't stop you calling it that, no matter how silly I think the term is. If you want to stop people 'culturally appropriating', then I take issue.

Some posters -- notably laughing dog -- try to conflate cultural appropriation with intellectual property law, as if copying a specific idea by an identifiable inventor is remotely like copying an idea with no identifiable inventor. Indeed, under this analogy, anybpdy who uses any cultural idea, whether they were raised in that culture or not, is copying it -- appropriating it.

 

[Arctish]

It isn't a meaningful concept for all the reasons I've already stated; in particular the word 'appropriation' is deliberately misleading, as copying a general cultural idea with no discernible inventor is not appropriating it.

You said it was not possible for a culture to be appropriated and in the next breath said that when it happens it's usually a good thing. I was hoping you would clarify what exactly you mean by "cultural appropriation mythicist" but it's still not clear if the mythicist is any different from the realist.

Or, if it is 'appropriating' it, then the people raised in that culture are appropriating that culture from the people they copied it from.

People raised in a culture don't appropriate it because the culture was given to them freely by their parents and community. Parents impart culture, the community shares it, the descendants pass it along.

Sometimes cultures are extinguished, either through misfortune or through the willful destruction of the means of passing it along, such as the forced enrollment of Native American children in Indian Schools where they were beaten and coerced into abandoning their native culture and adopting the culture of their captors. Those kids did not 'appropriate' white culture - it was forced upon them.

Culture is a thing that can be given and taken away. It can be shared with others in an exchange of ideas and inventiveness. And it can be pilfered for original concepts and genius. When that happens - when a culture's patrimony is utilized by others without an acknowledgement of where the concepts and inventiveness come from - then the culture's products are said to have been 'appropriated'.

but then goes on to defend it

I defend actions that the cultural appropriation mythicists call 'cultural appropriation', however I do not believe that culture can be 'appropriated'.

Right.

You defend the act of cultural appropriation but you don't call it that.

BTW, what do you call it?

 

[laughing dog]

Could have fooled me.

Obviously.

The whole idea of cultural appropriation is that non-white people own their cultures and that those evil whites are stealing it. You can't steal what isn't owned.

No, the whole idea of cultural appreciation is that people of one culture appropriate cultural items from another culture.

Those are actual specific works. Note that while you can't claim you wrote Genesis or Hamlet you can use them as you see fit. You can adapt them as you see fit. And Shakey himself was not above adapting existing stories. Romeo and Juliet is based on an Italian story. Nobody is complaining that Shakespeare "culturally appropriated" Italian culture. There is a medieval German legend of Dr. Faustus. Was Goethe ok to adapt it since he was German but Marlowe a "cultural appropriator" because he was English? And note. I can adapt elements from Shakespeare or Goethe freely today. Why should it be any different for elements that come from non-European cultures?

You continue to miss the point. Adaptation is not appropriation.

No. You can use ideas. It is specific implementation that is protected.

Nope.

But they use legal language like "stealing". In the end it is just a way to shame whites for what humanity has done since time immemorial and which is essential for cultural dissemination and development.

Theft is a legal word. Stealing is not. People are arrested and charged with theft.

Cultural appropriation is overtly racially one-sided.

Wrong.

This thread is about this Jesse guy's speech which talked about cultural appropriation among other things. You do not have to talk about it if you don't want to.

Again, you can focus on the bark of the trees even though the topic is the forest.

Since this was a parody of cultural appropriation mythicism that is exactly what I was going for. I.e. it is not what I actually believe.

That does not rebut "your observation is rather racist or ignorant". You are not fooling anyone.

 

[Metaphor]

You said it was not possible for a culture to be appropriated

That is correct

and in the next breath said that when it happens

When what the mythicists call 'cultural appropriation' happens, happens.

it's usually a good thing. I was hoping you would clarify what exactly you mean by "cultural appropriation mythicist" but it's still not clear if the mythicist is any different from the realist.

Mythicists call the act of someone copying an idea of a culture they were not raised in 'cultural appropriation' if
a) the copier shares some characteristic of a 'dominant' culture (almost always white skin)
b) the idea being copied 'originated' in a 'minority' culture.

I am not saying that ideas cannot be copied, just that copying general cultural ideas is not appropriation. However, the acts that the mythicists call 'cultural appropriation' are real acts, they're just not appropriative nor morally wrong.

the culture was given to them freely by their parents and community. Parents impart culture, the community shares it, the descendants pass it along.

I'm sorry, but this is begging the question.

Culture is a thing that can be given and taken away. It can be shared with others in an exchange of ideas and inventiveness. And it can be pilfered for original concepts and genius. When that happens - when a culture's patrimony is utilized by others without an acknowledgement of where the concepts and inventiveness come from - then the culture's products are said to have been 'appropriated'.

Culture cannot be taken away by copying ideas from it.

You defend the act of cultural appropriation but you don't call it that.

BTW, what do you call it?

Copying the idea of a culture you were not raised in does not need any special term, any more than copying an idea from a culture you were raised in needs a special term.