I have now met a real life creationist.

[Learner]

[h=2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcellions

The Circumcellions regarded martyrdom as the true Christian virtue (as the early Church Father Tertullian said, "a martyr's death day was actually his birthday"), and thus disagreed with the Episcopal see of Carthage on the primacy of chastity, sobriety, humility, and charity. Instead, they focused on bringing about their own martyrdom.[/h]On occasion, members of this group assaulted Roman legionaries or armed travelers with simple wooden clubs to provoke them into attacking and martyring them. Others interrupted courts of law and verbally provoked the judge so that he would order their immediate execution (a normal punishment at the time for contempt of court).^[6] The sect survived until the fifth century in Africa.

I don't know - Early Chrisitians would be more unlikely to do as highlighted above, because the flawed idea for martyrdom in Christianity would then mean; deliberately and decietfully condemning the Romans to commit murder in the eyes of God and of course the suggestion that these provoking acts would be totally opposite to charity, humility etc , not being Christian at all.

 

[Learner]

I think God likes one-on-one relationships.

And yet it cannot be bothered to show up in person and tell us that. We are supposed to believe in it based simply on faith and pray to it. Doesn't sound like a healthy relationship to me.

As it was written - He bothered to show up "quite a bit". Man still walked away from him so that time is over .. until .. as its written, Jesus returns. But you're right praying is part of it keeping in touch as it were through Jesus - one-on-one relationships.

 

[DrZoidberg]

[h=2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcellions

The Circumcellions regarded martyrdom as the true Christian virtue (as the early Church Father Tertullian said, "a martyr's death day was actually his birthday"), and thus disagreed with the Episcopal see of Carthage on the primacy of chastity, sobriety, humility, and charity. Instead, they focused on bringing about their own martyrdom.[/h]On occasion, members of this group assaulted Roman legionaries or armed travelers with simple wooden clubs to provoke them into attacking and martyring them. Others interrupted courts of law and verbally provoked the judge so that he would order their immediate execution (a normal punishment at the time for contempt of court).^[6] The sect survived until the fifth century in Africa.

I don't know - Early Chrisitians would be more unlikely to do as highlighted above, because the flawed idea for martyrdom in Christianity would then mean; deliberately and decietfully condemning the Romans to commit murder in the eyes of God and of course the suggestion that these provoking acts would be totally opposite to charity, humility etc , not being Christian at all.

Yet, it happened. You are trying to argue against the existence of a well supported fact from history.

The Quran is pretty clear on that suicide attacks lead straight to hell. Doesn't stop them. There's the same rules against it in Christianity. Didn't stop the Knights of Malta from inventing the practice

- - - Updated - - -

The Bible assumes a hell of a lot as obvious to the reader, just because it was obvious to iron age citizens of the Roman empire. Everything from science, to philosophy to cultural practices. Everything in the Bible either is written in contrast to a pagan practice, or it is written to affirm a pagan practice or it's entered to settle a specific political score within the early Christian community. And that world was quite different from our own. Without significant education about the iron age pagan world you will most likely be wrong about your interpretation. It's not easy. Especially that last one is impossible to figure out from superficial reading. It requires loads of study of both the ancient Mediterranean world, as well as Roman internal politics as well as early Christian politics.

An example of what I mean. 200 - 550 AD the Roman world were overrun by, so called "parabalani". Often young Christian men who had renounced all worldly possesions, left their farms to join Christian mobs fighting for Christian values. But always fanatic. The cynic might say that these were poor and destitute and had nothing to lose anyway. But I digress. The problem was that these had official sanction and with some flimsy justification could beat up whatever non-Christian they fancied. Savvy nobles converted to Christianity and used the parabalani as hired thugs to terrorise non-Christians and enrich themselves. They kept "stables" of them. Clothed and fed them.

The parabalani couldn't be criticized outright. Because they were Christian. But the specific teachings of priests who encouraged the parabalani could be argued against. Even though the parabalani helped make Christianity the dominant faith in the Mediterranean world, they soon overstayed their welcome. Those in power realized how they were a destructive force for society as a whole. So smart priests, who wanted to be politically influential, said what those in power wanted to hear. This affected which phrases were inserted into the Bible. Just from the text itself it would be impossible to know this. You need to know the specific details of that political conflict.

The parabalani were eventually suppressed. By 550 there's no more mention of them. But at no point where they ever denounced outright. The power of the parabalani was only subtly outmaneuvered from the top.

There's many more like this. Another good one is Galen's scientific theory of gender. Unless you know this the rules regarding what men and women should do become nothing but decrees without rational justification. The text assume you know and agree with Galen. But almost nobody have even heard of Galen today, let alone his theories.

Galen's a wanker.

Every Queenslander knows this.

Hairy palms?

 

[wilson]

I think God likes one-on-one relationships.

And yet it cannot be bothered to show up in person and tell us that. We are supposed to believe in it based simply on faith and pray to it. Doesn't sound like a healthy relationship to me.

He has already told you why he will have nothing to do with you.
All of the world's wickedness will be the cause of its own destruction:
“. . .Look! The hand of Jehovah is not too short to save, Nor is his ear too dull to hear. *
2 No, your own errors have separated you from your God. Your sins have made him hide his face from you, And he refuses to hear you. *
3 For your palms are polluted with blood And your fingers with error. Your lips speak lies, and your tongue mutters unrighteousness. *
4 No one calls out for righteousness, And no one goes to court in truthfulness. They trust in unreality and speak what is worthless. They conceive trouble and give birth to what is harmful. *
5 They hatch the eggs of a poisonous snake, And they weave the cobweb of a spider. Anyone who eats their eggs would die, And the egg that is crushed hatches a viper. *
6 Their cobweb will not serve as a garment, Nor will they cover themselves with what they make. Their works are harmful, And deeds of violence are in their hands. *
7 Their feet run to do evil, And they hurry to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are harmful thoughts; Ruin and misery are in their ways. *
8 They have not known the way of peace, And there is no justice in their tracks. They make their roadways crooked; No one treading on them will know peace. *
9 That is why justice is far away from us, And righteousness does not overtake us. We keep hoping for light, but look! there is darkness; For brightness, but we keep walking in gloom.
10 We grope for the wall like blind men; Like those without eyes we keep groping. We stumble at high noon as in evening darkness; Among the strong we are just like the dead.
11 We all keep growling like bears And cooing mournfully like doves. We hope for justice, but there is none; For salvation, but it is far away from us.
12 For our revolts are many before you; Each of our sins testifies against us. For our revolts are with us; We well know our errors.
13 We have transgressed and denied Jehovah; We have turned our backs on our God. We have spoken of oppression and revolt; We have conceived lies and muttered false words from the heart.
14 Justice is driven back, And righteousness stands far off; For truth has stumbled in the public square, And what is upright is unable to enter.
15 Truth has vanished, And anyone who turns away from bad is plundered. Jehovah saw this and was displeased, For there was no justice.” (Isaiah 59:1-15)

Is the world innocent of these charges?
He sent his own special representative to talk to you. His son was convincing enough to warrant his removal - so you murdered him.
What do you want him to say to you now?

 

[DrZoidberg]

And yet it cannot be bothered to show up in person and tell us that. We are supposed to believe in it based simply on faith and pray to it. Doesn't sound like a healthy relationship to me.

He has already told you why he will have nothing to do with you.
All of the world's wickedness will be the cause of its own destruction:
“. . .Look! The hand of Jehovah is not too short to save, Nor is his ear too dull to hear. *
2 No, your own errors have separated you from your God. Your sins have made him hide his face from you, And he refuses to hear you. *
3 For your palms are polluted with blood And your fingers with error. Your lips speak lies, and your tongue mutters unrighteousness. *
4 No one calls out for righteousness, And no one goes to court in truthfulness. They trust in unreality and speak what is worthless. They conceive trouble and give birth to what is harmful. *
5 They hatch the eggs of a poisonous snake, And they weave the cobweb of a spider. Anyone who eats their eggs would die, And the egg that is crushed hatches a viper. *
6 Their cobweb will not serve as a garment, Nor will they cover themselves with what they make. Their works are harmful, And deeds of violence are in their hands. *
7 Their feet run to do evil, And they hurry to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are harmful thoughts; Ruin and misery are in their ways. *
8 They have not known the way of peace, And there is no justice in their tracks. They make their roadways crooked; No one treading on them will know peace. *
9 That is why justice is far away from us, And righteousness does not overtake us. We keep hoping for light, but look! there is darkness; For brightness, but we keep walking in gloom.
10 We grope for the wall like blind men; Like those without eyes we keep groping. We stumble at high noon as in evening darkness; Among the strong we are just like the dead.
11 We all keep growling like bears And cooing mournfully like doves. We hope for justice, but there is none; For salvation, but it is far away from us.
12 For our revolts are many before you; Each of our sins testifies against us. For our revolts are with us; We well know our errors.
13 We have transgressed and denied Jehovah; We have turned our backs on our God. We have spoken of oppression and revolt; We have conceived lies and muttered false words from the heart.
14 Justice is driven back, And righteousness stands far off; For truth has stumbled in the public square, And what is upright is unable to enter.
15 Truth has vanished, And anyone who turns away from bad is plundered. Jehovah saw this and was displeased, For there was no justice.” (Isaiah 59:1-15)

Is the world innocent of these charges?

I find it bizarre that you find this convincing. I think you've fetishized God to such an extent it's preventing you from thinking straight about it. Move this scenario to any other domain and I think it'll be easier to understand what claim you are making.

Imagine a guy having wronged you somehow and you're about to punch him. To protect himself he says that his big brother is about to come out at any moment and he will kick your ass if you touch him. You both wait. Nothing happens. His excuses start. This is how you sound.

Even if we assume God really exists and is omnipotent. Any action for God has zero cost to him. Being passive aggressive, like you are describing him to be, is just such a dick move. He is clearly an idiot not worthy of worship. This would be true even if God existed.

If you punish those you're supposed to lead by hiding from them when they doubt your existence, you're doing everything wrong. In leadership communication is critical. You've got to communicate with those you are leading clearly. This seems apparently to be above God's limited skill set = an idiot. He makes Trump look competent. Why are you worshiping this utter fool of a deity? That's assuming God really exists. Not even if God would make himself known to me is that enough to get me to worship him. He's got to earn it first. So far it's not going so well for God in that department.

 

[wilson]

He has already told you why he will have nothing to do with you.
All of the world's wickedness will be the cause of its own destruction:
“. . .Look! The hand of Jehovah is not too short to save, Nor is his ear too dull to hear. *
2 No, your own errors have separated you from your God. Your sins have made him hide his face from you, And he refuses to hear you. *
3 For your palms are polluted with blood And your fingers with error. Your lips speak lies, and your tongue mutters unrighteousness. *
4 No one calls out for righteousness, And no one goes to court in truthfulness. They trust in unreality and speak what is worthless. They conceive trouble and give birth to what is harmful. *
5 They hatch the eggs of a poisonous snake, And they weave the cobweb of a spider. Anyone who eats their eggs would die, And the egg that is crushed hatches a viper. *
6 Their cobweb will not serve as a garment, Nor will they cover themselves with what they make. Their works are harmful, And deeds of violence are in their hands. *
7 Their feet run to do evil, And they hurry to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are harmful thoughts; Ruin and misery are in their ways. *
8 They have not known the way of peace, And there is no justice in their tracks. They make their roadways crooked; No one treading on them will know peace. *
9 That is why justice is far away from us, And righteousness does not overtake us. We keep hoping for light, but look! there is darkness; For brightness, but we keep walking in gloom.
10 We grope for the wall like blind men; Like those without eyes we keep groping. We stumble at high noon as in evening darkness; Among the strong we are just like the dead.
11 We all keep growling like bears And cooing mournfully like doves. We hope for justice, but there is none; For salvation, but it is far away from us.
12 For our revolts are many before you; Each of our sins testifies against us. For our revolts are with us; We well know our errors.
13 We have transgressed and denied Jehovah; We have turned our backs on our God. We have spoken of oppression and revolt; We have conceived lies and muttered false words from the heart.
14 Justice is driven back, And righteousness stands far off; For truth has stumbled in the public square, And what is upright is unable to enter.
15 Truth has vanished, And anyone who turns away from bad is plundered. Jehovah saw this and was displeased, For there was no justice.” (Isaiah 59:1-15)

Is the world innocent of these charges?

I find it bizarre that you find this convincing. I think you've fetishized God to such an extent it's preventing you from thinking straight about it. Move this scenario to any other domain and I think it'll be easier to understand what claim you are making.

Imagine a guy having wronged you somehow and you're about to punch him. To protect himself he says that his big brother is about to come out at any moment and he will kick your ass if you touch him. You both wait. Nothing happens. His excuses start. This is how you sound.

Even if we assume God really exists and is omnipotent. Any action for God has zero cost to him. Being passive aggressive, like you are describing him to be, is just such a dick move. He is clearly an idiot not worthy of worship. This would be true even if God existed.

If you punish those you're supposed to lead by hiding from them when they doubt your existence, you're doing everything wrong. In leadership communication is critical. You've got to communicate with those you are leading clearly. This seems apparently to be above God's limited skill set = an idiot. He makes Trump look competent. Why are you worshiping this utter fool of a deity? That's assuming God really exists. Not even if God would make himself known to me is that enough to get me to worship him. He's got to earn it first. So far it's not going so well for God in that department.

Jehovah will not force anyone to believe in or worship him.
You have not answered the question: Is the world innocent of these charges?
Well? If you are guilty of all charges, what do you rightly deserve?
What would justice demand?
And.........
What claim are YOU making? Aren't you implying that the sins, crimes, murders, wars, etc, do not matter? That he should allow you to continue your oppression of the weak and do nothing about it? Do you realize that the cries of those billions of oppressed are heard by him? He has every right to take action, whether you like it or not.
You tell your children that they are the descendants/products of animals, so you should not be surprised when they behave like animals.
This attitude fills your children with consternation and they come up with questions like these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUQEyHejtFI

How do you answer kids with questions like these?
There is a price to pay for everything we do. You do not seem to be willing to pay the price.
You would be singing a different tune if you were among the oppressed and not among the oppressors.

And how about this?:
"He sent his own special representative to talk to you. His son was convincing enough to warrant his removal - so you murdered him.
What do you want him to say to you now?"

 

[Juma]

I find it bizarre that you find this convincing. I think you've fetishized God to such an extent it's preventing you from thinking straight about it. Move this scenario to any other domain and I think it'll be easier to understand what claim you are making.

Imagine a guy having wronged you somehow and you're about to punch him. To protect himself he says that his big brother is about to come out at any moment and he will kick your ass if you touch him. You both wait. Nothing happens. His excuses start. This is how you sound.

Even if we assume God really exists and is omnipotent. Any action for God has zero cost to him. Being passive aggressive, like you are describing him to be, is just such a dick move. He is clearly an idiot not worthy of worship. This would be true even if God existed.

If you punish those you're supposed to lead by hiding from them when they doubt your existence, you're doing everything wrong. In leadership communication is critical. You've got to communicate with those you are leading clearly. This seems apparently to be above God's limited skill set = an idiot. He makes Trump look competent. Why are you worshiping this utter fool of a deity? That's assuming God really exists. Not even if God would make himself known to me is that enough to get me to worship him. He's got to earn it first. So far it's not going so well for God in that department.

Jehovah will not force anyone to believe in or worship him.
You have not answered the question: Is the world innocent of these charges?
Well? If you are guilty of all charges, what do you rightly deserve?
What would justice demand?
And.........
What claim are YOU making? Aren't you implying that the sins, crimes, murders, wars, etc, do not matter? That he should allow you to continue your oppression of the weak and do nothing about it? Do you realize that the cries of those billions of oppressed are heard by him? He has every right to take action, whether you like it or not.
You tell your children that they are the descendants/products of animals, so you should not be surprised when they behave like animals.
This attitude fills your children with consternation and they come up with questions like these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUQEyHejtFI

How do you answer kids with questions like these?
There is a price to pay for everything we do. You do not seem to be willing to pay the price.
You would be singing a different tune if you were among the oppressed and not among the oppressors.

And how about this?:
"He sent his own special representative to talk to you. His son was convincing enough to warrant his removal - so you murdered him.
What do you want him to say to you now?"

There is no "price to pay" other than the actual effects of what we do.

There is no god.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Jehovah will not force anyone to believe in or worship him.

So then why do you? It just seems like a huge waste of time even if God really exists.

You have not the question: Is the world innocent of these charges?
Well? If you are guilty of all charges, what do you rightly deserve?
What would justice demand?

Of course the world is innocent because Jehovah's standards and rules don't apply. Before a rule set is authoritative we first need to establish if it is valid. How about starting in that end?

And.........
What claim are YOU making? Aren't you implying that the sins, crimes, murders, wars, etc, do not matter? That he should allow you to continue your oppression of the weak and do nothing about it? Do you realize that the cries of those billions of oppressed are heard by him? He has every right to take action, whether you like it or not.
You tell your children that they are the descendants/products of animals, so you should not be surprised when they behave like animals.

You sound awfully confused now. These laws don't apply because they're already covered by ethics, as well as secular law. We don't need Jehovas laws.

And how about this?:
"He sent his own special representative to talk to you. His son was convincing enough to warrant his removal - so you murdered him.
What do you want him to say to you now?"

If he didn't die he wasn't murdered. Death is by definition a permanent condition

 

[funinspace]

And how about this?:
"He sent his own special representative to talk to you. His son was convincing enough to warrant his removal - so you murdered him.
What do you want him to say to you now?"

If he didn't die he wasn't murdered. Death is by definition a permanent condition

Yeah, but we humans did mightily inconvenience a portion of it for 3 days as a sacrifice to the other portion of itself. But of course that was its plan from the very beginning as it did create us flawed humans; it set the stage; it arranged the characters; and orchestrated the music. But it is our fault...

 

[Tom Sawyer]

If he didn't die he wasn't murdered. Death is by definition a permanent condition

Yeah, but we humans did mightily inconvenience a portion of it for 3 days as a sacrifice to the other portion of itself. But of course that was its plan from the very beginning as it did create us flawed humans; it set the stage; it arranged the characters; and orchestrated the music. But it is our fault...

Was he really all that inconvenienced by it, though? His soul had left the Jesus meat suit, so it's not like he was sitting out in the hot sun the whole time or anything. He hung out in the afterlife for a few days and then woke up in a cave. He Force-pushed the rock out the way so he didn't even need to stay in there and then wandered off to grab some lunch or something until the apostles came by and noticed he'd buggered off.

 

[Keith&Co.]

You have not answered the question: "

Absolutely precious, coming from wilson. He and he alone gets to decide which questions must be answered... HIS must be answered. Questions TO him, not so much.

 

[James Brown]

A competent lifeguard will save a drowning man, even if the guy didn't ask for help first. Even if the guy insulted the lifeguard before going into the water.

 

[wilson]

Jehovah will not force anyone to believe in or worship him.
You have not answered the question: Is the world innocent of these charges?
Well? If you are guilty of all charges, what do you rightly deserve?
What would justice demand?
And.........
What claim are YOU making? Aren't you implying that the sins, crimes, murders, wars, etc, do not matter? That he should allow you to continue your oppression of the weak and do nothing about it? Do you realize that the cries of those billions of oppressed are heard by him? He has every right to take action, whether you like it or not.
You tell your children that they are the descendants/products of animals, so you should not be surprised when they behave like animals.
This attitude fills your children with consternation and they come up with questions like these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUQEyHejtFI

How do you answer kids with questions like these?
There is a price to pay for everything we do. You do not seem to be willing to pay the price.
You would be singing a different tune if you were among the oppressed and not among the oppressors.

And how about this?:
"He sent his own special representative to talk to you. His son was convincing enough to warrant his removal - so you murdered him.
What do you want him to say to you now?"

There is no "price to pay" other than the actual effects of what we do.

What would those be?
This?:
http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/secondary/137626.jpg

Or this?:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lecnMtC...600/war+victim+palestinian+child+beheaded.jpg

Or this?:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03054/23-08-1968_3054900k.jpg


Can you furnish us with a guarantee?

 

[DrZoidberg]

There is no "price to pay" other than the actual effects of what we do.

What would those be?
This?:
http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/secondary/137626.jpgView attachment 10622

Or this?:
View attachment 10623
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lecnMtC...600/war+victim+palestinian+child+beheaded.jpg

Or this?:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03054/23-08-1968_3054900k.jpg
View attachment 10624

Can you furnish us with a guarantee?

Oh, look. Pictures of evil a loving omnipotent God is somehow not omnipotent enough to stop.

 

[wilson]

So then why do you? It just seems like a huge waste of time even if God really exists.

YOUR time?

You have not the question: Is the world innocent of these charges?
Well?
If you are guilty of all charges, what do you rightly deserve?
What would justice demand?

Of course the world is innocent because Jehovah's standards and rules don't apply.

Whose standards and rules apply? Why are your standards and rules so evil?
They are innocent?
You mean they didn't do any of the the things mentioned, e.g. "palms are polluted with blood, lips that speak lies, feet run to do evil, hurry to shed innocent blood, harmful thoughts, lack of peace, no justice", etc?

Before a rule set is authoritative we first need to establish if it is valid. How about starting in that end?

Why don't you try and resist the standards, rules and laws of nature? You, of course, did not write them, yet - you obey. Why?

And.........
What claim are YOU making? Aren't you implying that the sins, crimes, murders, wars, etc, do not matter? That he should allow you to continue your oppression of the weak and do nothing about it? Do you realize that the cries of those billions of oppressed are heard by him? He has every right to take action, whether you like it or not.
You tell your children that they are the descendants/products of animals, so you should not be surprised when they behave like animals.

You sound awfully confused now.

Why? I have no children that behave like beasts. I don't even keep company with anyone who does.

These laws don't apply because they're already covered by ethics, as well as secular law. We don't need Jehovas laws.

Then tell me who wrote the laws of nature. Nature itself is an arrangement which indicates intelligence. You cannot get around that.

And how about this?:
"He sent his own special representative to talk to you. His son was convincing enough to warrant his removal - so you murdered him.
What do you want him to say to you now?"

If he didn't die he wasn't murdered. Death is by definition a permanent condition

As far as you know.
Who said he didn't die? You? Tales of the "undead" are fictional.

 

[atrib]

And yet it cannot be bothered to show up in person and tell us that. We are supposed to believe in it based simply on faith and pray to it. Doesn't sound like a healthy relationship to me.

He has already told you why he will have nothing to do with you.

Is the world innocent of these charges?
He sent his own special representative to talk to you. His son was convincing enough to warrant his removal - so you murdered him.
What do you want him to say to you now?

I did not murder anyone.
I have not met with any representative of this god.

I was challenging Lion IRC's claim that this god creature wants to have a personal relationship with me. How am I supposed to have a personal relationship with a creature that cannot be bothered to show up? To answer your question, I would like him/it to show up and demonstrate that he is the Biblical god, and he possesses the power to create universes and such. If it passes this test, I have some questions for it, including why it permits suffering in it's creation.

 

[wilson]

Oh, look. Pictures of evil a loving omnipotent God is somehow not omnipotent enough to stop.

You agitate for the freedom to run things your way and when the results go against your wishes, you want him to intervene? Why should he?
You cannot blame him for your evil actions. You are only looking at the results of following your own ways.
You really want him to stop you from doing what you really want to do?
Wouldn't you then be complaining about not having free will and all that?

 

[James Brown]

If a cop interrupted a man raping a woman, I would expect the cop to intervene. Not shrug his shoulders and say, "Sorry, lady, you only have yourself to blame. I certainly can't interfere with his free will, can I? How can he be expected to learn to make good choices if I jumped in every time he made someone else suffer? But I promise to ride with you in the ambulance and hold your hand as we rush you to a hospital. You can give me credit later for being there in your time of need."

We interfere with other people's free will all the time. Why is it so impossible for God?

You know what else doesn't interfere with people's free will? A non-existent deity.

 

[DrZoidberg]

YOUR time?

No. Either worshipping God is a waste of everybody's time or nobody's time. I still fail to see how your arguments lead to worshipping Jehova not being a waste of time for everybody.

Whose standards and rules apply?

Ethics. The branch of philosophy that deals with right and wrong. We reach conclusions about what is right or wrong by comparing results of actions and agree upon shared rules, and shared sanctions.

A good example of one such application is the modern western legal system. It doesn't cover everything. But that's not what it's for.

The good thing about using ethics as a basis for creating social norms and rules is that they can be changed and updated to better suit a modern world. What is moral is slightly different in the agrarian world than a modern industrial society.

Why are your standards and rules so evil?

In what way are they evil?

They are innocent?

A legal code that does not apply doesn't apply. If it doesn't apply we're all innocent of whatever it says we're guilty of. It's only after we start applying it that there's any meaning appointing guilt. Until Jehova appears and let himself be known in a scientifically irrefutable way I'd say that the laws of Jehova don't apply. As long as he sticks to the childish nonsense of keeping himself hidden from us, I'll do the adult thing and ignore him. At least until he grows up.

Why don't you try and resist the standards, rules and laws of nature? You, of course, did not write them, yet - you obey. Why?

Are you now trying to conflate natural laws with moral laws?

What claim are YOU making? Aren't you implying that the sins, crimes, murders, wars, etc, do not matter?

I'm saying that we already have those covered by secular law and ethics. So we don't need Jehova's laws. We can throw the Bible in the fireplace and we lose nothing.

That he should allow you to continue your oppression of the weak and do nothing about it? Do you realize that the cries of those billions of oppressed are heard by him? He has every right to take action, whether you like it or not.

Whenever he's ready to begin, he's welcome to. But as long as he is hiding and stays passive I'll continue to ignore him.

You tell your children that they are the descendants/products of animals, so you should not be surprised when they behave like animals.

I also think it's wrong to lie to children. It sets a bad example. But, by all means, you can lie to your children if you think that will make the world a better place. I won't tell another man how to raise his kids.

Then tell me who wrote the laws of nature. Nature itself is an arrangement which indicates intelligence. You cannot get around that.

This is a completely different topic. I suggest starting a new thread about that.

If he didn't die he wasn't murdered. Death is by definition a permanent condition

As far as you know.

This we know for a fact, because it's in the definition of the word itself. If you're talking about somebody who was dead, and then stopped being dead, you should be using another word all together. A bit sick? Really under the weather?

Who said he didn't die? You? Tales of the "undead" are fictional.

It's in the Bible. Jesus "rose from the dead". Ie, wasn't dead at all. You can't rise from the dead. If you do you weren't dead to begin with.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

How am I supposed to have a personal relationship with a creature that cannot be bothered to show up?

Hey, if you figure this out, let me know so that I can fill in the people at my My Little Pony fan club. We all kind of want a ... personal relationship ... with Twilight Sparkle but are constrained by the whole her-being-fictional thing and we'd like to find ourselves a way around that.