Lightning Burns Down Church, But FOX News Focuses on Preserved Jesus Painting

[Keith&Co.]

Again, you conflate "emotional/spiritual". Interesting. Why do you believe they are the same?

Even assuming they are two different elements, does a spiritual outlook provide anything OTHER than emotional benefits to the individual?
I mean, if you believe in an afterlife, you might feel better about death (Valhalla! Party!)
But if you believe in an omniscient judge, you might feel bad about the judgment. (that one time you told Mommy to buzz off!)
But if you believe in a omnibenevolent judge, you might feel confident about the judgment (Boys will be boys!)
But if you believe you need an intercessor, and no one is present at your death to absolve your sins...

Seems to be all about feelings.
Especially if all religions seem to be custom-made to provide the feels without much evidence of a dependable spiritual element to life. Seems kinda recursive.

Do you have anything beyond The Feels for this reason you think there's a spiritual element to life apart from emotions?

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Again, you conflate "emotional/spiritual". Interesting. Why do you believe they are the same?

Even assuming they are two different elements, does a spiritual outlook provide anything OTHER than emotional benefits to the individual?
I mean, if you believe in an afterlife, you might feel better about death (Valhalla! Party!)
But if you believe in an omniscient judge, you might feel bad about the judgment. (that one time you told Mommy to buzz off!)
But if you believe in a omnibenevolent judge, you might feel confident about the judgment (Boys will be boys!)
But if you believe you need an intercessor, and no one is present at your death to absolve your sins...

Seems to be all about feelings.
Especially if all religions seem to be custom-made to provide the feels without much evidence of a dependable spiritual element to life. Seems kinda recursive.

Do you have anything beyond The Feels for this reason you think there's a spiritual element to life apart from emotions?

There is no evidence of anything beyond physical existence. You are free to believe all of us are just ambulatory meat computers responding to biochemical programming and, in the end, of no more value than a burned out light bulb.

 

[Keith&Co.]

There is no evidence of anything beyond physical existence.

You know, I didn't ask for objective evidence that would stand up to scrutiny in a lab. I asked what made YOU think that the Spiritual is more than just emotions.
But, hey, it's incredibly surprising to find a spiritualist who folds like a silk tent when their assertions are challenged. So weird.

You are free to believe all of us are just ambulatory meat computers responding to biochemical programming and, in the end, of no more value than a burned out light bulb.

So, you have no actual reason to bitch about other people 'conflating' spiritual and emotional, except that if you can't believe your self-image will persist after death, you see no purpose to the life you demonstrably live.
'Kay.

 

[atrib]

There is no evidence of anything beyond physical existence. You are free to believe all of us are just ambulatory meat computers responding to biochemical programming and, in the end, of no more value than a burned out light bulb.

Max, not trying to speak for Keith, but at the end of the day we are just collections of atoms responding to stimuli in somewhat sophisticated ways. At the end of our lives these atoms will scatter to dust, and if physicists are right, the universe will be nothing more than a vast ocean of undifferentiated photons in a few trillion trillion years. But we are also more than the sum of our atoms, we are self aware, we are the universe become aware of itself. And that makes us special, and very, very valuable, if only for a brief moment in time. I don't think of it as spirituality, but an acknowledgement of the good fortune that befell us quite by chance.

 

[abaddon]

... But we are also more than the sum of our atoms, we are self aware, we are the universe become aware of itself. And that makes us special, and very, very valuable, if only for a brief moment in time. I don't think of it as spirituality, but an acknowledgement of the good fortune that befell us quite by chance.

I'm ok with being an aware bit of "ambulatory meat" because, for however long it lasts, it sure has caught my interest. Self-awareness is the shiznit, especially turned outwards to the world rather than absorbed in me-centric concerns.

Also I agree with what T.G.G. Moogly was getting at about the emotional response. In some of our impulses we're like toddlers wanting reassurance someone's looking out for us personally. So religious persons look for intent in the chaos of a burned-down building, because if it was just a random natural thing then that means they could be burned to death, smashed, torn in half or killed in a number of different ways at any instant. And that's unnerving. So, the one odd-thing-out (the unburnt painting in a burned-up building) looks intentional and that's reassurance its not all happenstance. If it was "mere nature" and no mind in it, then why is the thing of significance TO ME PERSONALLY still there?

That's a missed opportunity at "spiritual" (ie, psychological) growth. That my body can be destroyed at any second is a lesson in how the "to me personally" stuff limits me. "Get out of your self-concern and engage with the fantastic temporal events while you're here" seems to me a better lesson.

The disappointment for "but that makes me just a meatbag" people is their self-absorbed concern about "me" isn't satisfied. Funny how spirituality is supposed to be about growing out of egocentrism... but isn't.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

There is no evidence of anything beyond physical existence.

You know, I didn't ask for objective evidence that would stand up to scrutiny in a lab. I asked what made YOU think that the Spiritual is more than just emotions.
But, hey, it's incredibly surprising to find a spiritualist who folds like a silk tent when their assertions are challenged. So weird.

You are free to believe all of us are just ambulatory meat computers responding to biochemical programming and, in the end, of no more value than a burned out light bulb.

So, you have no actual reason to bitch about other people 'conflating' spiritual and emotional, except that if you can't believe your self-image will persist after death, you see no purpose to the life you demonstrably live.
'Kay.

I was a big SF reader as kid. That and learning about science vs. the Bible caused me to transition from Sunday School student to a full-blown "when you're dead, you're dead" atheist by the time I was 14. When I was junior in HS I had a near-death-experience caused me to reconsider ideas about existence. No I didn't see Jesus or God, but I was left with a profound sense that there is more to existence than what we see in front of our noses. Mostly I follow a Zen philosophy, a lot of it gained from Alan Watts recordings.

I don't know the answer to what it's all about. I think old religious texts off wisdom, but not facts. The story of Jonah and the Whale is an example; physically impossible, but it's an interesting story about redemption and seeking to do something greater than self-service.

 

[Keith&Co.]

When I was junior in HS I had a near-death-experience caused me to reconsider ideas about existence. No I didn't see Jesus or God, but I was left with a profound sense that there is more to existence than what we see in front of our noses.

okay.
I would be the last one to suggest you should ignore your personal, direct experiences to craft your outlook. More power to you, and all that.

However, i do think it's more than a little arrogant to talk down at people who disagree with you, who do not share that subjective experience.

I mean, Max was atheist until Max becane Max+NDE. So if anyone else is Atheist-NDE, they could be expected not to perceive spiritual as discrete from emotional.
At least if your only offered reason to separate them is limited to your "so there i was..." anecdote.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

There is no evidence of anything beyond physical existence. You are free to believe all of us are just ambulatory meat computers responding to biochemical programming and, in the end, of no more value than a burned out light bulb.

Max, not trying to speak for Keith, but at the end of the day we are just collections of atoms responding to stimuli in somewhat sophisticated ways. At the end of our lives these atoms will scatter to dust, and if physicists are right, the universe will be nothing more than a vast ocean of undifferentiated photons in a few trillion trillion years. But we are also more than the sum of our atoms, we are self aware, we are the universe become aware of itself. And that makes us special, and very, very valuable, if only for a brief moment in time. I don't think of it as spirituality, but an acknowledgement of the good fortune that befell us quite by chance.

.....ooor you're a biological robot who only thinks he's self-aware but really isn't.

As for the end of the Universe, it'll come a lot sooner than you think. Anywhere from 5 billion years to 22 billion even though actual "heat death" may not come for 10^100 years, long after all life has died out.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com...ce-universe-end-of-time-multiverse-inflation/

 

[steve_bank]

That is all conjecture, nobody knows an end to the universe.

What is more certain is that a few billion years from now the sun will run out of fusion material and expand incinerating the Earth. Long before that the surface will loose water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbY8W4MEyPk

 

[Max Rockatansky]

That is all conjecture, nobody knows an end to the universe.

What is more certain is that a few billion years from now the sun will run out of fusion material and expand incinerating the Earth. Long before that the surface will loose water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbY8W4MEyPk

The current science indicates a "Big Freeze". The rate of expansion is measured and the mass is estimated. From there, it's just a math problem. What's acknowledged is the "X" factor(s). The exact nature of Dark Matter and Dark Energy is still unknown, although its presence is measurable to an extent.

 

[skepticalbip]

That is all conjecture, nobody knows an end to the universe.

It depends on who you ask. Douglas Adams says the universe will end in five hundred and seventy-six thousand million years. But then he said that in 1980, that was thirty-eight years ago so time is quickly running out.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

By claiming spirituality is emotional.

So what exactly was your motivation for posting pictures of the tragedy in Pittsburgh if not emotional/spiritual? What does that have to do with the topic in the OP? To me that is just someone's emotions going off. That's not necessarily always a bad thing, just not rational. Maybe you can explain your purpose to someone as dense as me.

Again, you conflate "emotional/spiritual". Interesting. Why do you believe they are the same? As for the Synagogue picture, try to contrast it with the picture I responded to with it and read the question I asked. It goes directly to the OP; it's a common meme among militant atheists that death, especially by "evil" people are proof that 1) God doesn't exist or 2) if God does exist then God is evil. I find the differences between militant atheists and evangelical Bible-thumpers to be one of polarity, not a difference of quality since both, IMO, are authoritarian assholes. You are free to believe that mass murder is purely emotional, but I think it's a form of insanity. Obviously such people aren't well-adjusted and don't play well with others. Same goes for those who continually ridicule the beliefs of others while holding their own beliefs to be pure and righteous. Agreed it isn't rational.

Okay, so I'm still trying to figure out where you are on the militant atheist/bible thumper spectrum so I can make sense of your posts.

You were an atheist at 14 years old. You don't think there is anything beyond the physical, you don't like militant bible thumpers or militant atheists. Is that accurate? You like to say "Eat my Shorts."

Yes, when emotions take a person to the point of killing people because they are jews there's certainly something wrong with that individual. The person's rational faculties certainly weren't responsible for that, it had to be an emotional act. You may wish to call it a crime of passion, which is an emotional act. Maybe you want to call it insanity, temporary insanity or worse, your call.

So what does spiritual mean to you? You like the word but say there is nothing beyond physical, and that you are not merely a biological robot. So what is "spiritual?"

Incidentally, I don't know what Zoid was trying to say by posting his picture of lightning. Lightning hitting a building? A church? I don't know. So I can't make sense of your re-posting his picture, your pictures of the synagogue and your question. Maybe you can explain.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Again, you conflate "emotional/spiritual". Interesting. Why do you believe they are the same? As for the Synagogue picture, try to contrast it with the picture I responded to with it and read the question I asked. It goes directly to the OP; it's a common meme among militant atheists that death, especially by "evil" people are proof that 1) God doesn't exist or 2) if God does exist then God is evil. I find the differences between militant atheists and evangelical Bible-thumpers to be one of polarity, not a difference of quality since both, IMO, are authoritarian assholes. You are free to believe that mass murder is purely emotional, but I think it's a form of insanity. Obviously such people aren't well-adjusted and don't play well with others. Same goes for those who continually ridicule the beliefs of others while holding their own beliefs to be pure and righteous. Agreed it isn't rational.

Okay, so I'm still trying to figure out where you are on the militant atheist/bible thumper spectrum so I can make sense of your posts.

You were an atheist at 14 years old. You don't think there is anything beyond the physical, you don't like militant bible thumpers or militant atheists. Is that accurate?...

No it's not. Please reread my posts and, perhaps, you'll see what you missed.

Personally, it's been my experience that most people only see what they want to see. One of the most profound comments I've read in years was about George Washington in David McCullough's "1776": "Seeing things as they were, and not as he would would wish them to be, was one of his salient strengths".

Conversely, most people only see things as they wish them to be such as Obama's birth certificate, MS-13, "Bush lied", etc. We see this exemplified daily on this forum....and those are relatively normal people, not the nutjobs who think 9/11 was caused by explosives and drones or that the Moon landing was faked.

To bring this back on topic: News is a business and cable news networks have their niches; Fox has the RWNJs, MSNBC has the LWLs and CNN leans left, but all are just trying to make a buck because, if there's a God in the US, it's the Almighty Dollar not matter how many Bible quotations Trump reads.

 

[Opoponax]

There is no positive to religion.

Yes there is.
It gives you the opportunity to go onto fora like these and have a whinge.
Imagine how boring your life would be if you could not do that.

There are many things to complain about. Religion is but one.

 

[phands]

There is no positive to religion.

Yes there is.
It gives you the opportunity to go onto fora like these and have a whinge.
Imagine how boring your life would be if you could not do that.

There are many things to complain about. Religion is but one.

However, religion seems to have caused, or made worse, the vast majority of bad things in the world.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

There are many things to complain about. Religion is but one.

However, religion seems to have caused, or made worse, the vast majority of bad things in the world.

Like Judaism? I think the people at the Tree of Life synagogue will disagree with you. People who hate religion are as bad as religious fanatics who hate atheists; both are haters.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

There are many things to complain about. Religion is but one.

However, religion seems to have caused, or made worse, the vast majority of bad things in the world.

I would not blame religion simply because people invent religions. I would assign blame to stupid humans, religious behavior being just a quantifiable symptom.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

When Ben Franklin demonsted lightning was a natural electric phenomena it actually casuded a theological crisis.

A common belief was if your house or barn got struck by lightning it was a sign from above where of course god dwelled.

Minsters preached lightning rods were an abomination and offense against god.

Yet Ben was a Deist just like Jefferson.

If you want to tar all theists with the same brush, do you agree that it's okay to tar all atheists with the same brush? If not, why not?

 

[Opoponax]

There are many things to complain about. Religion is but one.

However, religion seems to have caused, or made worse, the vast majority of bad things in the world.

It depends on the context. Religion made sense when we didn't know how things worked. It provided rules for societies that were beneficial to those societies. It also provider more simplistic justifications for those rules (the Man in the Sky is watching and will punish you after your dead too!).

It took time for humans to have the luxury to develop complex reasoning and eventually, science. We had to figure out things like morals and ethics and how to interweave those concepts with legal principles. A small clan of hunter-gatherers surviving on a day to day basis didn't need all of that; same for an agrarian village of a few hundred. And it continues to serve as an organizing mechanism.

So it served a definite survival purpose--early on anyway.

We all know what it's used for now, so there's no sense in listing what amounts to the alphabet.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, I've often compared religion to the scaffolding on a building. When you're putting the building up, the scaffolding is vital and important and serves a valuable purpose.

Once the building is up, though, it just looks really weird if you still have the scaffolding there.